From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 20 Jun 1994, part 3 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: MARTINCRIM@delphi.com Subject: Lies With Truth Message-ID: <01HDQ4SRNLTU96ZN3Z@delphi.com> Date: 19 Jun 94 08:00:23 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4665 Or, filling in the gaps left after _The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm_. The God Learners went everywhere and called the local sun god by a single name--Yelm, maybe, but more likely Elmal, the Good Sun of the Orlanthi. I surmise this because the God Learners were influenced by Theyalan culture much more than by Dara Happan culture. In fact, aside from the Goddess Switch, the God Learners had little to do with Peloria, because the EWF blocked their access through Dragon Pass. Modern Gloranthans are the heirs of God Learner teaching, which presents an over- simplified mythology. We readers are also misled by the Orlanthi bias of most of the published material on Glorantha (Trollpak being the main exception). We know that the God Learners did not deeply understand Pelorian mythology, or they would not have performed the Goddess Switch. GRAY presents the real Dara Happan mythology--the Dara Happan attempt to explain the recent and distant past, from a perspective in the early third century S.T. Although Plentonius probably relied on older sources, my guess is he relied on inspiration both divine and mundane (that is, he made it up--and in magic, saying it right makes it so). The Yelm cult appeared in _Gods of Glorantha_ and _White Wolf_ #16. I decline to follow Stephen Martin's view, presented in the RQ Con program book, that the WW16 write-up is Pentan, because that write-up refers at many points to the Dara Happan cult, contrasting it with the Pentans. However, the previous publications do present a view of the cult which is tainted by God Learner and Orlanthi world views. Thus, their validity is fairly low. The published Yelm cult is still good enough for gaming purposes, perhaps. Before I set a game in Peloria, though, I'd want to have the Lunar Book, to understand the current state of Solar mythology. A gamemaster could make his own speculations, but they'd be contradicted soon. The lesson I've learned from _Glorious ReAscent_ is this: don't extrapolate from game rules, even cult descriptions. Extrapolation is fun and relatively easy, but it leads to all sorts of errors. You could extrapolate from Orlanthi propaganda and write a Solar myth that is the mirror image of the Orlanthi myth. You could extrapolate from the sorcery rules and believe that people who know Form/Set can mass produce goods. Both are wrong. What do you do if not extrapolate? Work from a vision, as Greg Stafford does. Visions change as fast as Arkat, of course, but you can hang onto a vision long enough to flesh it out. A gamemaster must fully enter into a world's mythologies before he or she can make up parts of that world that are True. There is a place for extrapolation, in filling in the detail left unsaid. Here's an example, which is my two cents on the Elmal/Yelmalio bit, in response to David Hall and Stephen Martin in the RQ Con program book: In the Gloranthan present (1610-1625), the Sun Dome Temples have enthusiastically embraced the teachings of Monrogh (or Monrough) about their lord, whom they now call Yelmalio. We know about them, and about the loyal Elmali. The elves of central Genertela clearly worship a god whom all agree is the same as Yelmalio, although the elves have a different name for him. The elves do not have any reason to honor Monrogh, since they haven't made any changes to their mythology recently. Thus, elves don't have the Lantern spell. If you are an Elmal cultist, do me a favor and go and see if you can get admitted at an elf Yelmalio temple. Once you resolve that question, all the loose ends about elves will be tied up. However, there are other Yelmalio worshipers around who need more explaining. According to the cults distribution chart in _Cults of Prax_, there are Yelmalians among the animal nomads. River of Cradles is less explicit, but acknowledges some Yelmalians amongst the nomads. The Praxian Yelmalians fall into three groups: the Waha style, the Zebra style, and the Ostrich style. I ignore any 1% notations on the chart as being too small to be viable. (When Orogurri the Bison ruled Sun Dome, he brought all the Bison Yelmalians with him, and they never returned to the plains.) The Pol Joni part of the table is clearly outdated, and anyway all members have to worship Orlanthi cults. Maybe there are Pol Joni Elmali? The Waha style Yelmalians live among the Impala and Sable tribes. Like almost all Praxians, they belong to a society in which shamanistic worship was predominant until recent times. Their ancestors worshiped the Praxian solar deity Sun Hawk, as well as other spirits of light. These include Morning Star, Evening Star, and Oakfed. Many modern Yelmalians of the Impala and Sable tribes belong to Praxian spirit cults of light. Among those two tribes, light worshipers make up whole septs or even clans. (Women of those clans, however, still worship Eiritha.) The Waha style Yelmalio cult is like the version in _Sun County_, with some exceptions. They do not honor Monrogh (or learn the Lantern spell). They let shamans belong to the cult. They have no Light Captains, Light Guards, Light Keepers, High Priests, or Light Sons. (Light Sons may ride no animal but horses, and Stephen Martin was right about the dual nature of cults with two rune levels.) They sometimes worship at the Sun Dome, but often do not. Their liturgy is in a Praxian style, and they call their god by a name in Praxian which I leave to someone else to make up. The Zebra Rider Yelmalians are closer to the _Sun County_ model than the Waha style Yelmalians are. Zebra initiates of the cult mostly belong to certain families with ties to the Sun Dome. They have accepted Monrogh and his revelation. They honor Kuschile and Togtuvei, as they always have. The major difference is that they have no Light Captains, Light Guards, Light Keepers, or High Priests. (For one thing, their cult is not large enough to have many priests, so the priests they do have do not specialize.) Light Sons among them say, "Of course, zebras _are_ horses." They worship at the Sun Dome whenever they are nearby on holy days. Their liturgy is close to the Praxian Sun Dome's, and they call their lord Yelmalio. The Ostrich Riders have their own traditions, but the Sun Dome cult has influenced them. This influence has been greatest in the period since the Dragonkill War wiped out the tribe's ruling lineage (whom modern Ostrich Riders believe to have been Yelm cultists). They do not know Monrogh or Kuschile, but do have a spirit named Veng, patron of riding. They do not have shamans in their cult, or join the Praxian spirit cults of light. They have Light Sons who do not follow the "horse or walk" rule. If pressed, they will insist that Ostriches are creatures of the Sun and therefore proper mounts. (Sun Domers distrust Ostrich Light Sons for this reason, and simply believe that they are breaking a geas.) The Ostrich riders have no Light Captains, Light Guides, Light Keepers, or High Priests. They have their own liturgy and their own name for Yelmalio, which I also leave to another to make up (Mike?). When foreigners ruled Sun Dome County, they brought their foreign ways with them. Thus, the original Sun Dome cult was melded with Praxian Sun Hawk worship. However, most traces of this melding have disappeared. Scholars can find one clue in the fact that rural Sun Domers have wise women (shamans), whereas Dragon Pass Sun Domers do not suffer witches to live. The two Sun Dome temples have different liturgies, but this may be more due to long separation than to Praxian influence. This puts me firmly in the "different cults for different folks" camp, as if there were any doubt. But the cultists all believe they're worshiping the same god, just as Sikhs and Quakers worship the same God. Some are of the "We each have different ways, who is to say which is right?" crowd, while others are "We will show these fallen brethren the error of their ways, by force if necessary" crowd. Anything that makes for more interesting stories, I'm in favor of. If a campaign is only involved in looting dungeons, then this sort of thing will never come up, so no whingeing please. --Martin --------------------- From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: stuff :-) Message-ID:
Date: 19 Jun 94 16:23:41 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4666 Paul Reilly in X-RQ-ID: 4656 > I think that the Brithini and the early Malkioni believed > that the "ghost" was just a form of leftover decomposing "spirit energy", > similar to the decomposing matter of the body. The ghost is NOT the person. > I think that the original Brithini converts to Malkionism did NOT believe > in an individual afterlife per se - such would not have appealed to their > emotions or their reasons. I think the Solace ritual was supposed to > DISSOLVE you ghost into its component energies, and that the information that > made up YOU would be remembered in the Mind of God. Thus the original > Solace was a mystic union with the GOdhead, not an elaborate afterlife. Later > on, when the religion changed (probably Second Age even) this shifted around > and the belief in a Transcendant IG OUTSIDE Glorantha arose. Only then did > the idea of souls going to some afterlife get into the religion. Competition > with the pagans and their afterlives influenced the religion, esp. during the > Second Age. Where do you put the infamous passage from Cults of Prax' Daka Fal write-up about 1st Age Seshnegi Ancestor worship? (Please don't tell me it has been Gregged, because every Greg so far did _not_ nullify earlier comments, but did introduce a new angle of looking at the problem.) I think Malkion's original message of Solace involved more than just a burial rite. It helped the Brithini who accepted it through the turmoils of the Ice Age and the other troubles of the Darkness. I think that it must have included some everyday component as well, although I agree that virtually all of the original revelation was lost and forgotten before the Dawning. I think Paul, I and a few other people agree that Malkionism changed significantly several times in history. One turning point is given as Arkat's arrival in Seshnela, where he brought spiritual unity to gain support for his crusade against Tanisor, another is the Return to Rightness Crusade, the next is the de-God Learnerisation at the end of the Second Age in Fronela, Seshnela and Ralios. The competing pagans were there in force already at the Dawning, and Seshnela was under their control after their first Brithos venture. (This was repeated in the Second Age, and I think it will in the Third, however the Arolanit Brithini try to turn the perspective.) > Since this emphasis on rewards in the afterlife is (IMO) a feature of Earthly > western monotheistic religions, I'd like to get it out of the GLoranthan > western monotheistic religions, and leave it in Gloranthan paganism, where > we know it exists already. Makes a nice reversed picture from Earth. Hmm. Neither the Walhalla myths nor the Islamic paradise are elements of western monotheistic religions, but to the typical member of these religions they comprised the ultimate collection of pleasures. I think that the Christian version of the afterlife as we know it today was decisively influenced by Dante's travels through Heaven and Hell which rewrote earlier versions in a very God Learner way. >> "enemy stronghold" and "enemy holy ground" are different things, but >> I'll only say that my house rules hold that enemy holy ground cannot >> be DIed within. > I've always played this way too, despite what "the rules" said. Actually > I thought it should work the other way around - in an enemy God's territory > your God might still be able to give you hints, but direct intervention would > violate the Compromise. Also, the limitation makes for better stories. And it makes even minimaxers go for Sanctify, which makes an excellent preparatory spell for combat if it keeps enemies from DIing, taking much of the effectivity from the enemy Rune Lords. -- -- Joerg Baumgartner email@example.com --------------------- From: firstname.lastname@example.org (alex) Subject: Vinga Message-ID: <9406191644.AA27235@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 19 Jun 94 16:44:36 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4667 David Dunham: > Spoken like a true Internet user. Not all Digest subscribers have Internet > access; I'd rather see dribs and drabs posted each day for a month than > know that it sits inaccessible somewhere. I have no objections to anyone's swathes of stuff appearing here, but it should be possible to set up a mailserver on soda, if you Ask Shannon Nice, I'd imagine. > >Orlanth laughed at her > This from the god of the culture where 15% practice non-gender roles? I > much prefer Nick's version of Orlanth, allowing Yinkin to herd even when he > knew he'd fail. I heortily agree. Of course, this myth is going to be in substantial part _why_ 15% practice non-gender roles (i.e., is the rationisation for this), so some conservatism by Mom and Pop would be manifested. Ernalda: "Put on a clean dress and go play, dear." Vinga: "Grrrrrr..." > >Vinga castrated Eurmal > Must all Orlanthi warrior women be castraters? It makes sense for Babeester > Gor (who's an anti-fertility goddess), but do women warriors have to be > nasty? Besides, Eurmal shows no effects of this important mythical event. Apart from his Famed Detachability, of course. I agree this element seems odd in this context. Alex. --------------------- From: email@example.com (alex) Subject: Peloria, Pel-ooooo-ria Message-ID: <9406191646.AA27242@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 19 Jun 94 16:46:43 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4668 Barron Chugg: > Anyway, I was wondering if I had missed an obvious Lunar Trickster. Poor Lunars borrow, great Lunars steal. Note the Empire already has a Trickster figure in Rakenveg, and may also have a "healed" version of Eurmal (or simply import the cult in some places). Nick Brooke: > The Glorious Reascent's account of Dara Happan myth is non-God Learned (it > pre-dates the God Learners) and was never assimilated into the monomyth, as > the God Learners never got to Peloria (cf. the Secrets Book appendix: "The > Pelorian mystical geography was almost virgin territory since the area was > never actively part of the God Learner's conspiracy"). So it hasn't been > shoehorned/pruned into the Monomyth. The Big Picture of Dara Happan mythology certainly was squished into the monomyth, as a quick glance at GoG will confirm. Partly, of course, the Theyalans helped do the GLers dirty work for them, by identifying some Solar entities with parts of their own myths, and indubitably their view colours the monomythised version. > As Sandy said yesterday, to cope with weird and different mythologies the > God Learners spawned splinter groups. I think this confuses cause and effect. (Big problem in the godplane, as we've seen...) The empire splintered, I'm sure, for reasons of excessive distance, politics, and greed, not Scientific and Artistic Differences. One unified empire would eventually have produced a Bigger and Better monomyth to explain _everything_, I'm quite sure. > > Why the Sow Mother, and not (male) Mralot? Or are both worshipped? > They're the same person, Joerg: Hsunchen androgyny. Nickly God Learnerism? C'mon, Nick, you have to Denounce your heresy before we can help you with it... > BTW, the "Esrolian Humakti" from MOB's Lottery Swords are more a product of > the cosmopolitan urban Holy Country culture than a reflection of what goes > on out in the sticks, IMHO. Seems a feeble complaint to me, since Esrolia _is_ the most cosmopolitan, urban part of the Holy Country. > I get sad when people say they feel "a bit Nicked" > whenever I open my big mouth, but there's sweet F.A. I can do about it [...] It's probably a sort of left-handed compliment, Nick, that your musings are so often taken as being authorative (if deluded, I suppose, if they're being complained about). It is, however, symptomatic of the wider phemonenon of someone asserting some position, and everyone else trying to guess whether he or she means According to Zee Roolz/Greg Sez/By Obvious Extrapolation/ In My Campaign/I Thought This Up Ten Minutes Ago. I'd suggest that everyone attempts to label their opinings thusly, by their own rating of its Lhankor Mhy Truth Grade Rating, but I bet this would go the way of John Hughes' "level" declarations, and I'm not sure I could be bothered myself. If we consider everything to default to I Thought This Up Ten Minutes Ago, though, the least friction will probably occur. > [...] short of shutting up. And that's not an option I'd consider... Well, that's all right, then. > Bryan posited: > > And it could be that the Lunars really have no idea that Orlanth is > > worshipped in Ralios and points distant. They may know that "a storm > > god" is worshipped there, but little else. > And, so far as their theory goes, they could be right (Or was Odin really > Mercury all along?). Against the vocal God Learner majority on this list, I > think there are far more differences between various Ruling Storm Gods than > the spelling of their name. Shurely shome mishtake, "As part of the vocal God Learner majority", no? I seem to recall the first (and second) human to complete the LBQ being domiciled in Ralios, so if he was deluded in his belief he was worshipping Orlanth, gimme s'more of that delusion, man. > BTW, as a name for "the Ralian form of Orlanth" > I've used "Orlando", which has several pleasant associations: berserking, > amorous insanity, chivalry, Ariosto, orange cats. That works for me. Indeed, I have a Cunning Plan for which this'll be handy... Shame about the connotations of that place in the free-fire zone of the New World, though. > The trad. Ralian form of elective confederate kingship looks significantly > different to the more hereditary type we see in Sartar, to my (optimistic) > eye. This is probably just a "larger scale" variety of the elective, confederate kingship that Sartarite tribes have. No big deal. > Orlanth Rex would be King of the Gods for different reasons in Ralios, > and far more easily ousted by dissent among his followers. Orlanth Rex is also, apparently, the god of elected positions such as tribal king, and thane. > Extension to language is one more logical > step along the same path. And we *know* the Lunars designed and built an > efficient and stylish new language for their Empire. Yeah, but we have reason to doubt that it's one in which the concept "Chaos is Evil" is inexpressible, seeing as this would be, well, a practical impossibility. (Short of abolishing the necessary linguistic constructs to denote either of the concepts, or of predicative assertion. This is a language people actually _learn_, and _use_, after all, unlike Newspeak even in fiction.) > It doesn't have to work: Ingsoc's Newspeak didn't; Pao's languages didn't; > even the Ascians' little red book didn't. You don't have to use it: there's > nothing "official" about the suggestion at all. It's just one of my ideas. > If it upsets or revolts you, please ignore it. (Or, better still: tell us > something else interesting about New Pelorian). I liked someone's (David Gadbois'?) idea of "distfix" qualifiers in New Pelorian, but like Nick's Newsquawk idea, I think it's a bit much to create out of whole cloth. After all, New Pelorian is known to be substantially similar to Dara Happan, and the Pelorian Hick languages. One way I can imagine such constructions being used is as linguistic metaphors for Lunar Balance; for example the Dara Happan words for "good" and "evil" might be prefixed and suffixed respectively to the given root, to indicate "partaining to moral issues" (or by subtle Newsquawk implication, either "good", or "evil", according to context and implication). Alex.