From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 20 Jun 1994, part 5
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex)
Subject: More flak.
Message-ID: <9406192255.AA28385@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 19 Jun 94 22:55:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4675
Sandy Petersen:
> >> Second, having female magicians is not the same as having female
> >>clerics.
> Alex sez:
> >I'm afraid it pretty much is, if it's only proper to use magic in
> >the context of worship of the Invisible God, the standard Western
> >line.
> I don't think this is the Standard Western Line at all, given
> that peasants and knights are able to use sorcery among both the
> Rokari and the Hrestoli. I don't think that the sorcery performed by
> magicians is considered "Sacred" in the same way that Orlanth's Rune
> spells are sacred manifestations of their deity.
Not Sacred, _dangerous_. Only properly religious and moral people, with
the necessary wisdom, can use Advanced Magic without imperilling their
souls. Low-caste types can (morally) use limited magic, by virtue of their
belief in the Invisible God, and their observation of caste strictures.
> The Invisible Gods'
> manifestations are "subtler" i.e., not so obvious. The Westerners
> know that any random student can learn perfectly competent sorcery.
Yup, but they don't consider unaligned sorcerors to be morally correct
in their magical practices, do they?
> Hence, I believe that Hrestoli and Rokari women are permitted
> to learn all the magic they qualify for, whether or not they're
> allowed to officiate at religious ceremonies. So there, nyah.
I agree. I just don't think they generally qualify for a whole lot.
> >As for a female Talar, get back to me on this immediately after the
> >World's Greatest Democracy elects a woman president.
> Now see here, wiseass.
Please, that'd be wise_arse_. See previous discussion on Effete
Americanisms.
> Having a female King of Loskalm is NOT
> the same as having a female Talar somewhere.
Obviously not, but this is only a compelling point if Loskalm is _as_
egalitarian as the US, which seems highly unlikely. My point is that
these things are relative. Even if Loskalm is less misogynist than the
Rest of the West (and we don't even know that it is), that's not saying
a lot.
> I live in a state
> (Texas), boasting a female governor. We have female senators. We have
> female cabinet members. Obviously the U.S. of A. is grossly
> chauvinistic, but we DO have female rulers.
The US is, in historical terms, and even in modern, global terms, grossly
gender-egalitarian. Lots of NPC MCPs, yes, but equal political structures
exist, at least. This is true of very few terran societies over time,
even supposedly "democratic" or "meritocratic" ones, and certainly not the
ones which are "analogues" for the Gloranthan West.
> My belief is that so do
> the Hrestoli, though probably not (even) as many as 20th-century U.S.
> Besides, the Hrestoli are English-equivalents
They are? England of what period? Can't say this comparison had ever
occurred to me. (Not that I was the American one seriously.)
> not U.S. equivalents, and _they've_ had female rulers. PM & Queen.
England has had female monarchs, but only on a heriditary, no-males-available
basis. "England"'s solitary female PM is a case too traumatic for me to
dwell on.
But to compare Loskalm with anywhere in mediaeval Europe (England included),
female "ruling" nobles were functionally non-existant. A woman would only
inherit when there were no brothers to precede her, and hieresses and
dowagers generally had little direct say in their own lands, which their
feudal superior would regard as theirs to dispose of as they wished, by
marrying off the wench in question to someone they approved of, who would
then rule the lands much as if he'd inherited them himself.
> >Aren't you trying to have your Monomyth and beat up on it, Sandy?
> >Orlanth killed Yelm everywhere, but in some places it was before the
> >entrance of chaos, and other places it was after?
> I face the contradictions head-on. I neither deny the
> Monomyth's truth, nor do I deny the truth of local variations. So
> there. My personal beliefs are full of contradictions -- why can't be
> Gloranthan beliefs be the same?
Having two of the Monomyth's Fundamental Stages in the wrong order seems
like more than a Little Local Difficulty. You mean it's "true", as a
generalisation, or that it has fundamental truth, even where some people
deludedly believe differently?
> >> Eurmal is known and worshiped along the Pamaltelan coast,
> >>he's the same entity that is worshiped in Sartar.
> >He is? How can we tell?
> The God Learners said he was. Modern Pamaltelan scholars
> generally agree. So who are you, little man, to argue? After all,
> Eurmal tricksters that worship in the Pamaltelan shrines get Rune
> magic.
But they also do so in "Bolongo" shrines, so that's no argument that
specific sites of worship and myths are Eurmal, and _not_ Bolongo (or
whoever else).
> My own belief is that curved blades were used in Peloria
> BEFORE the Lunars ever came along.
It seems more likely that the Lunars popularised and spread them, than
invented them, at any rate.
> For some reason, I like the theory that the Carmanians
> somehow came to use curved swords in the years since their exile from
> Fronela (maybe I think this way because of the Persian connection),
> and that the Lunars adopted it from them.
Hrm. We get a lot of these "the Carmanians invented it, because the
Persians did" arguments these days, I note. Too many, I think, when one
considers how brief a time Carmania was a distinct entity, in between
leaving the West, then conquering/merging with Dara happa, and then getting
squished by the Lunars. (A few hundred years, the exact dates escape me.)
By contrast, the Persians(/Parthians/Medians/all that lot) are comparatively
ancient, and were culturally and geographically fairly distinct for quite some
considerable time (though influencing, and influenced by the adjoining
civilisations, true), which is why they thought up all this Good Stuff.
> I also like the theory that the Pent sun nomads use curved
> swords, and this may be another influence on the Dara Happans.
Could be, but we've no reason for the Pentans inventing or using them.
I'm tempted to suppose they come to Peloria via Pent from Kralorela, which
admittedly only moves the problem along a bit.
David Cheng:
> No, I am not yet accpeting orders for these books. Please wait for
> the formal announcement.
What, can't we just trample you in the dust at Convulsion, then? Aaawwww...
;-)
Devin Cutler:
> Alex writes:
> " From reading KoS, for example, one would not
> immediately conclude the Orlanthi are a people for whom magic necessarily
> "works", so much as they are a culture who _believe_ it does. As did many
> Earthly cultures."
> I'm afraid you've lost me. Are you saying Orlanthi do not actually work
> magic? Are you implying that Orlanthi magic is somewhow a sham? Please
> elucidate.
I'm saying that _if_ Orlanthi magic didn't work, or if it did, we'd not
know the difference from KoS. Think of the RQ rules as a crutch in playing
their characters accurately, to aid modern, cynical players, who couldn't
"correctly" interpret "mere chance events" and "unsubstantiated, unrepeatable
occurrences" as the Miracles and Efficacious Magic that a devout Orlanthi
certainly would.
> "Resurrection has strict time limits, and must be done _before_ someone
> goes to their afterlife (or not). Hence bringing back someone _after_
> this is a totally different matter."
> I fail to see the difference. The great dividing line is life vs death. Even
> if "Heaven" has not been reached, it is clear that one survives after death,
> simply because after Resurrection, one is alive after having spiritually left
> his body. The fact that there is some sort of certain existence after death
> makes the difference.
Not at all. If one is regularly returned from the dead up to seven days
after the event, during which time you're merely a spirit/ghost, that's no
evidence of a "real" afterlife after one's spirit no longer apparently
exists, and when one _can't be resurrected_. Daka Fal types probably, in
fact, believe that if you're not still a ghost (though unresurrectable)
after this point, you're a dead duck, and that the theists are just kidding
themselves, as Westerners are will their talk of "Solace".
Perhaps "scienti{f|st}ically"-minded Gloranthans pronounce a body "spirit
dead" after seven days...
Alex.
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From: mcarthur@fit.qut.edu.au (Robert McArthur)
Subject: Re: boring gods
Message-ID: <199406200044.KAA14906@ocean.fit.qut.edu.au>
Date: 20 Jun 94 20:44:42 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4676
Colin propounds:
> Scott writes:
> >Granted, the compromise really
> >cramped the gods' style, but that doesn't mean that the gods don't
> >know who their friends/worshippers/patsies are.
>
> The gods know if you're a "good worshipper". They don't know what ulterior
> motives you might have behind that worship. If you worship correctly,
> performing the requisite ( >=bare minimum) cult duties they are "happy".
What about the use of divination to check potential cult members? Chalana
Arroy uses (used? - RQII) to check whether you were really a pacifist and
would renounce violence. Given that the candidate must open themselves to
the God for this to work, I think that the God *can* know the innermost
workings of someone. Whether the God want to tell their priest or other
worshippers is another matter! But I think the God knows... especially if the
candidate has been a participant in a divination.
Robert McArthur
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Sandy HQs again.
Message-ID: <9406200140.AA29134@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 20 Jun 94 01:40:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4677
Sandy:
> I said I wasn't sure how hostile the Loskalmi were towards the
> Rokari. Alex said that he felt they were quite hostile.
> I'm not so sure, based solely on the fact that the Rokari are
> a real long ways away from the Loskalmi, and pose no real threat,
> either spiritually or physically.
Granted, I don't think Loskalm is up nights, fretting itself into having
a collective fatal embolyism to the brain in its worries about Seshnela,
or indeed vice versa. But there are probably outcrops of Rokarism more
close at hand, the occassional missionary, etc. _Those_ I bet they get
steamed up about. (And vice verse -- I bet the Seshnelans get pretty
peeved at the Castle Coasters (sounds like a kind of beermat).)
> Lewis Jardine sez:
> >I am unconvinced about the ubiquity of the scimitar in the Lunar
> >army. Sure all the Officers wear them, but can you imagine close
> >order infantry using them?
> Sure I can. If Swiss pikemen could have guys in the middle of
> their unit who were wielding poleaxes, a scimitar is nothing by
> comparison.
BTW, this is so they could form infantry lines (or squares? I forget
if the Swiss actually used these or not -- at least latterly, I think),
with halbardiers attacking from the second rank, protected by the pikemen.
One couldn't use swords in the same way. This is a variation of Alexander's
technique of three-deep pikes, with all projecting beyond the formation...
Attacking cavalry: "Owch".
> >> I don't think the Wagon, or
> >> Tolat, or the Jugger ever cause eclipses in the classic sense.
> Alex ponders:
> >Too small, or "above" the Sun in the Sky Dome?
> Dunno. What do you think? Which would lead to the more
> interesting result?
Since these are our only possibilities for irregular, hard-to-predict
eclipses, I vote "neither". i.e., at least one planet is big enough,
and somewhat lower in the sky, to be able to completely occlude the sun,
now and then. Which planet _is_ the biggest, does anyone know? (Elder
secrets doesn't show them all in the sky at once.)
A Southpath planet would be best: otherwise eclipses might get a bit too
commonplace.
> >>Presumably if you lived in the right place, the Red Moon
> >> could cause an eclipse.
> >If big enough. It bothers me how _regular_ these eclipses would be.
> In the foist place, since the moon is so far north of the sun
> (which tends towards the southern half of the sky), to get the
> eclipse you've got to go up on Valind's Glacier. Already the results
> are getting more interesting.
Depends on high it is, dunnit? Not to say how high the Sky Dome is.
And how far south the sunpath is. And... stuff like that.
> Kevin wonders:
> >>Maybe I'm confused here, but if the sun fell out of the sky how did
> >>it get back there from the ocean?
> A wiseacre responds:
> >>It took a Lightbringers' Quest to restore the Sun.
> Alex points out:
> >And in the Doraddi myth?
> Most of the Doraddi have heard garbled versions of the
> Lightbringers' Quest, about the Seven (or Nine, or Thirty) Brave Folk
> who went to Hell after the Sun. One version of the basic Doraddi myth
> (which varies greatly with different regions, of course), follows:
But what did they believe _before_ the Theyalans, God Learners, and other
folk got to them, if they already knew the sun fell, and rose again?
(Nice stories, though.)
> It is unclear who the Night Monsters are.
It is?
> >Isn't it possible to quit an HQ at more or less any time, as one can
> >with a VisionQuest?
> Yes, after any conflict or at certain stations. In fact,
> sometimes you're _forced_ to quit a HQ.
Yeah: if you fail a crucial test, and can't "transpose" to a different
myth, or variant of the same one.
> This doesn't mean you can
> pick up the heroquest again right where you left off, of course.
Gack, no, of course not. Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not
collect a gratuitously large HQ bonus.
Alex.
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From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: Brit Convulsioneers
Message-ID:
Date: 20 Jun 94 04:43:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4678
Greg Fried here.
Might any of the Brits reading be able to help me out with a
question/problem? I plan to be in the UK in July, visiting relatives (my Mum
up and left for a Yank) and I hope to waddle my way up to Convulsion. Do any
of you know of a good B&B round thereabouts? Also, if you just want to
socialize, drop me a line. I probably won't be e-mailable, but you can get
me from mid-July or so at:
c/o Sturge
45 Eaton Rise
London W5 2HE
Thanks!
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