From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 21 Jun 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: howdy Message-ID: <9406201830.AA07393@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 20 Jun 94 06:30:22 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4694 Joerg: >I doubt that the Horals were the effective anti-horse troop as you >picture them. When Hrestol conceived the idea of a heavy cavalry he >did so because his country was beset by Basmoli against whose >hit-and-run tactics there was no effective countermeasure. It's possible that the Horali are, in fact, NOT effective anti-horse troops. I suspect they're better than most Gloranthan cultures if only because of the long rivalry between the Seshnegi (who had mounted troops) and the Brithini. They still may not be as good as the Sun Dome Templars. Joerg, you mention some other good Genertelan soldiery as possible elites: Loskalmi elite foot who you say are "trained against knights". I suspect they're trained more as a support TO the knights, rather than a defense against them. I'm sure they'll stand up to most cavalry, but I betcha a solid mounted charge by disciplined cavalry would break ' em. You also mention the Kralori heavy infantry. Well, I don't think they could hold their own against a mounted charge of, say Pent or Praxian troops. I suspect the Kralori army is unfit to face off a real invasion, and is only good for responding to and fighting raids (from Amazons, Hsunchen, Vormaini, etc.). There're exceptions, of course -- the troops manning the Iron Forts have to be able to prevent Praxian incursions, but they use magic and the forts to help in this task, not military skill. I said, >> curved blades make dandy weapons, which is why the Arabs used 'em Joerg points out: >Depends on the fighting style you favour. Generally long blades are >the weapons of individual fighters, not ... coordinated troops, >cavalry was fond of them as second attack (the first usually >being a variant of spear or missile) after charge formation had >broken up. No one is more aware than me that the best weapon for a party of adventurers has little or nothing in common with the best weapons for an army. Nonetheless, I adhere to my belief that Lunar infantry frequently carry scimitars and/or sickles (i.e., kukris). I don't think that the scimitar is the primary weapon of most Lunar troops; whom I picture as wielding spears in hoplite fashion. The scimitars come into play as a secondary arm AFTER the spear line has been broken up, just like you mention was the case with most ancient cavalry. I think we're on the same side here, Joerg. Incidentally, re: individual fighters vs. mass combat. 'Tis my belief that individualistic fighting is even more common among Gloranthan societies than on Earth. This is because on Glorantha, it is possible for an individual to become SO adept, and SO deadly that he is readily able to defeat numerous opponents. Heroes obviously represent the upper end of this trend, while Rune lords and magicians of various types represent the lower end. To become a Rune lord or magician, you have to be somewhat individualistic, or at least interested in self-improvement. Most Earthly armies that have proven effective in warfare have of course been those that worked most effectively as a team -- the Mongol hordes, Roman legions, Alexandrian phalanxes, Spanish Renaissance infantry and Landknecht amply demonstrate that point. Because of the existence of magic and the ability to achieve personal greatness in Glorantha, I believe that such highly skilled troops are rarer in Glorantha. >Anything the Pentans did was considered improper by the Dara >Happans. I don't think this necessarily applies to military technology. While the Pentans were obviously infidels, the Dara Happans couldn't help but notice that their weapons and skills were keeping them suppressed, and my own belief is that they would have been happy to adopt those techniques in order to help expel their oppressors. >A question of appeal to all the Gloranthan RuneQuesters out there: >can we make away with the concept of Blank Lands by now? I'm not sure what you mean. I use the Blank Lands all the time, and they're filled with stuff in my own campaigns. It has been suggested that the Malkioni concept of Solace is vague and unclear -- really no more than an assurance that after death, one's fate will be benign. It has also been suggested that this would make a nifty contrast with the complex Theist afterlives. I think this is a dandy plan, and puts the Malkioni emphasis on This Life, in direct conflict with the Theist concern with right living so that their Gods will grant them grace. Obviously, there will be Malkioni who have derived their own theories about an afterlife. In a few ways, the Malkioni are coming to resemble traditional Judaism more than Christianity (the resemblance is superficial, of course). I think this is a fine trend; note the lack of any precise afterlife (in common with many Jewish philosophers' beliefs), and the theory that once a Malkioni, always a Malkioni. Cullen O'Neill says: >Good dwarfs are immortal Yes, but they can still be killed. All sane dwarfs realize this. The entire heresy of Octamonism evolved primarily as a response to the terror of death. (Their response being to cut themselves off from the surface world, so their enemies won't be able to find 'em.) >Are you perhaps saying that individualists believe in an immortal >soul (holding the ... personality) while other dwarfs >don't? Correct. Though I currently also hold the opinion that the individualists may well believe that you have to "develop" your personality from its roots before it's fit to survive on after death. >Do other dwarfs believe that the soul exists and is changeable or >that nothing survives after deaths except parts? In my (strongly held) opinion, they believe that there is no soul, only a spiritual organ containing POW and MPs, and that after death only the POW and MPs remain, which are recycled into the World Machine. After death, you're no more than a little zap of energy sans consciousness, sans self-awareness, sans personality, and your fate is to be poured into a big vat with other such zaps and all mixed up. Alex, in speaking on the God Learner Empire, mentions: > The empire splintered, I'm sure, for reasons of excessive distance, >politics, and greed, not Scientific and Artistic Differences. Note: while I take on a didactic tone in part of this response, it is, of course, merely My Own Opinion. While distance must have had something to do with it, this was exacerbated by the excessively variant mythologies dealt with in Pamaltelan 'n' Kralorela. The Middle Seas Empire was never a real Empire -- just a trade cartel. The Machine City was an independent political entity, as was Slontos, as was Seshnela. They were all buddies of the Jrusteli, but they weren't "ruled" by Jrustela in any real way. They were just part of the "commonwealth" or "E.E.C." of the Middle Seas Empire. The False Dragon Ring and the Six-Legged Empire were ALSO part of this commonwealth and thus technically part of the Middle Seas Empire. However, both sects had ceased being God Learners before the end of the Second Age. The False Dragon Ring entirely gave up their God Learner secrets in exchange for dragon magics, while the Six Legged Empire did likewise, though to a lesser extent (i.e., there were still a few God Learners within the Six Legged Empire, even at its demise, though the numbers kept dwindling over the years). No doubt the more spectacular magic available to the Kralori was the factor causing them to give up God Learnerism immediately, while the Six Leggers responded to the ambient magic in Pamaltela more slowly, as the power inherent in Jolar was less obvious. WHAT DID THE SIX LEGGED EMPIRE DO? The major difference between Pamaltela and the other lands to which the God Learners visited was that Pamaltela is an innately Nice Place (as compared to the harsh realities of Genertela, at least). Crops grow without excessive encouragement, wars are practically unknown, mountains block attacks from hostile elves or Umathelans, and everything is just a little big easier to do. For instance, in Genertela, Bless Crops is needed to survive. In Pamaltela, Bless Crops gives you wealth, rather than subsistence. The experiments of the Jrusteli and EWF in manufacturing hybrid monsters (centaurs, manticores, ducks, etc.) were no doubt attended by many failures. In Pamaltela, most all the attempts were successful, because of the lands' natural tendency towards fertility and life. Hence, the four plagues of civilization, Roads, Cities, Fences, and Farms, could be extended and spread far and wide across the land, with amazing loot and profit resulting. The local gods are, of course, superfluous, except inasmuch as their survival is necessarily to keep the cash cow running. These deities need not be worshiped, and instead should be chained and imprisoned in carefully-crafted heroquests, so they must continue providing the source of welfare to the Six Leggers, without annoying rebellions or strife. Not that the pacifistic aborigines who worship(ed) these deities are much of a problem. Especially after they've been subdued through Tapping, Enslaving (love that Ompalam!), and the ministrations of Gark the Calm or Seseine. Alex rambles on: >[I] doubt that ... in [New Pelorian] the concept "Chaos is Evil" is >inexpressible, It may not be inexpressible, but it might be a play on words. What if the newspeak words for "Chaos" and "Good" were homonyms? >the Dara Happan words for "good" and "evil" might be prefixed and >suffixed respectively to the given root, to indicate "partaining >to moral issues" (or by subtle Newsquawk implication, either "good", >or "evil", according to context and implication). Or perhaps New Pelorian instead (or in addition to) rates words by Morality. For instance, most Indo-European languages assign words a gender (English being a notable exception), so that in Russian, frex, books are "female", houses are "male", and taxicabs are "neuter". Now, obviously, Russians don't think that books are actually female, they just use certain cases and adjective endings with these words. In the same way, certain words might be assigned "Benign", "Malign", or "Ethically Neutral" meaning in New Pelorian, so that "Chaos" might have the "benign" declension, whereas "Storm" might be stuck with "malign". The New Pelorians could claim that it doesn't really mean anything -- it's just the way the language works, but over a period of time it would probably erode certain sensibilities. >I think the Sun Domers rely fairly heavily on heavy infantry. Even >militia units would generally be used in a similar role, since they >are eqipped in the same way. The Sun Domers don't really need to be a well-balanced military force. When a hot war rises up, they're generally allied to one side or the other, and someone else on their side no doubt has peltast-equivalents, heavy cavalry, and so forth. When it's not a hot war, then all they have to deal with is local raiders and the like, and their infantry is certainly competent to handle such a threat. In Prax, where most all the opposition is mounted, the Sun Domers may have a slightly better-balanced force, because the raids are doubtless more intense and larger-scale than in Orlanthi land. But here the Sun Domers might rely on palisades and the nomad inability to lead an effective siege to maintain themselves. >But what did they believe _before_ the Theyalans, God Learners, and >other folk got to them, if they already knew the sun fell, and rose >again? In the pure, unadulterated truth. Note that my first version of the Sun Going Down has little foreign influence in it.