From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 21 Jun 1994, part 4 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172) Subject: blank lands Message-ID: <01HDRIQ5EN4UQWX1YB@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU> Date: 20 Jun 94 06:22:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4689 - Joerg asks about the viability of eliminating blank lands When blank lands first appeared (way back in Griffin Mountain), I thought the idea was a good one. You could play in Balazar, move off into a "published" area like the Lunar Empire, or create your own not- for-publication bit for your personal campaign in an area like Garsting. We have since seen Balazar turned into a Blank Land and a whole group added as part of the Genertela pack. Of course, we keep getting references to primitive Balazar, to Rigtaina the Hunting Nymph, to the rivalry between the Telmori and the Dog-people of Balazar, etc. So much for a blank land! (And to a minimal extent Garsting was subject to this in the History of the Lunar Empire where a couple of cities sacked are mentioned and cities are shown on the maps of the empire.) One reason, though, that I decided to develop in Imther was that it was next to a Blank Land. I can say that a Common Event is a raid from Garsting without worrying about who they actually are (of course, the fact that there's a lot of woods between Garsting and the Imtherian population centers helps here). If this material is ever published, GMs can use Garsting as they will--friend or foe, place to venture into without fear of being Gregged, etc. So I still like the idea of the blank land and leaving Garsting as one. What I suggest is that we develop Jarst. In my campaign the two are culturally the same (hence the more or less common name), but politically opposed (usually), though they almost always unite to fight off the horse nomads. If Jarst is there, then it can be used by those GMs who want to extend their campaign into Garsting. Now, on the other hand, I believe strongly that Balazar should be restored to its original form. FREE BROTHER DOG NOW! --Harald --------------------- From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham) Subject: Cults; Ralios passes; Sumerians; king names Message-ID: <199406201615.AA03385@radiomail.net> Date: 20 Jun 94 16:15:59 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4690 Colin Watson said >Gods supply magic when they're worshipped correctly; not because they like you. > ... The priests have control over who gets into the cult; it's largely >a cultural thing. In my PenDragon Pass game, the Religion skill (which is deity-specific) indicates how well you know the prayers and rituals of the religion. You can get a POW check by making this roll. The priests test for the five cult virtues, and these are cultural (Chalana Arroy can have different virtues depending on where she's worshipped). Joerg said >Alakoring Dragonbreaker takes his war against the dragons and >dragonfriends from Ralios to Aggar and Holay. Since the route through >Dorastor was firmly shut at the end of the Second Age, he either must >have used High Llama Pass (an unlikely route to take with an army) or >he crossed the Rockwoods directly into Aggar. "Alakoring took his war" -- not necessarily his army! Alakoring could have travelled on foot the long way to Aggar and Holay and started raising rebellion against the EWF. Or, from Wyrm's Footnotes 13: Alakoring "was in the army which flew over the Rockwoods to fight the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. He became prominent while living in Aggar, where he settled and raised a family, always fighting the Empire." >A question of appeal to all the Gloranthan RuneQuesters out there: can >we make away with the concept of Blank Lands by now? The concept was, use these areas and we won't Greg you. I wouldn't be surprised if many people would still appreciate this. It's unfortunate in some ways that Balazar is translucent rather than opaque... Sumerian Thought: In the excellent novel Snow Crash, the Sumerians _didn't_ think quite like we do... And I saved an article from the Chrstian Science Monitor 5Jan94, about the work of Lucio Gaidorou-Astori, who studied Mesopotamic stone tablets and discovered a proof of the Pythagorean Theorem that "proceeded from a different way of thinking from that of ancient Greece." "What motivates [Gaidorou-Astori] is the investigation of another, arlier way of thinking." In general, I agree the ancients were an awful lot like us. But I suspect much of the mindset was different. Pendragon has some information on this. re "Orlando" vs "Orlanth:" You guys certainly have logic on your side. And if you'd said all this before, rather than just after, I'd started a Ralios campaign, I'd be swayed. I don't want to change now. "Orlando" doesn't really fit with the names I've been using; "Orlan" or possibly "Orlant" fits better. So would other Lightbringers have different names in your scheme? --------------------- From: jpolk@csc.com (James Polk) Subject: Misc Replies Message-ID:Date: 20 Jun 94 16:18:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4691 Well, I am really far behind on reading the Daily, so please forgive these comments to week (two week?) old items. Colin Watson writes in X-RQ-ID: 4570 "Remember, as a result of the Compromise, that the Gods have no free will. They're not omniscient either. They can't read your mind. So long as you carry out the correct rituals etc, they will respond accordingly "giving" you magic. This response to worship is like a reflex. They don't choose who is "worthy" and who is not. That kind of decision is in the hands of the priests of the cult. It is the priests who choose who should be initiated.(And they are fallible.) Once you're initiated you've pretty much got it made." Hey folks, I think I found a Mostali! After all, reflex action, no free will, mechanical responses - all this sounds like World Machine talk to me. Somehow, though, I can't see it. If all decision-making ability was taken from the gods by the Compromise, then how does one explain the events connected with the Lunar Goddess? How does one explain the destruction of the (much-abused by RQ Daily writers) God Learners? And what makes you think a Troll could become a Yelmalian simply by performing normal iniation rituals? (These aren't rhetorical questions; I really would like to hear your reasons.) ----- Nick Brook directs in X-RQ-ID: 4581 - "(Or, better still: tell us something else interesting about New Pelorian)." Even though your comment wasn't directed to me, I'm going to answer anyway. I have always seen New Pelorian as the great mongrel, expressive (and liberating?) language of Glorantha. Formed from parts of the languages of Peloria ("Old Pelorian"), Carmania, Dara Happa, etc., it provides myriad ways of expressing shades of meaning. I have never felt it to be constructed with ulterior motives, but as a natural consequence of the history of the Lunar Empire. --------------------- From: jonas.schiott@vinga.hum.gu.se (Jonas Schiott) Subject: The 'impassable' Rockwoods Message-ID: <9406201654.AA02189@vinga.hum.gu.se> Date: 20 Jun 94 18:59:51 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4692 Joerg: >Once again I want to explore the passes in the Rockwood Mountains >between Corolaland and Halikiv in Ralios and Aggar and Skanthiland in >southern Peloria. You mean you've been there before?:--) >Uz Lore tells us on p.29 that the Halikiv trolls "raided the humans of >the Aggar region so continually that it was nearly abandoned by them" >early in the Third Age. We've always assumed the Halikiv trolls have tunnels _under_ the mountains, both Rockwood and Mislari (that's how the PCs in our campaign got to the EW from Ditali, but I digress...). Can't recall if this is supported anywhere. Probably not. >Alakoring Dragonbreaker takes his war against the dragons and >dragonfriends from Ralios to Aggar and Holay. Did he have an _army_, or was it just him and his trusted companions? If the later, I don't believe flying that distance would be much trouble for an Orlanth Hero like him. If the former, perhaps he wasn't _from_ Halikiv (as per Wyrm's Footnotes), but still had good connections there? Sandy: >'Tis like this. The western "bulge" of the Rockwoods, just >north of Sir Ethilrist's territory, where the Northern Rockwoods and >Southern Rockwoods meet, is lower to the ground and more passable >than most of the Rockwoods OK, this explains the trolls, but Alakoring (and Ethilrist?) would still have to get past _them_. Which requires a poltical explanation, not a geographical one... >(I know of no travels from Wenelia to >Ralios, for instance). Now you do. :-):-) ( Jonas Schiott ) ( Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria ) ( Goteborgs Universitet ) --------------------- From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson) Subject: One word: Lokmaydism Message-ID: <9406201716.AA14879@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk> Date: 20 Jun 94 18:16:03 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4693 ____________ Devin writes: >Gods cannot invasively read the minds of worshippers, but they CAN, >over a period of time, by observing rituals, tell whether an initiate is >truly devout. Over the weekend I decided to have a browse through King of Sartar to see if I could find any good precedents for cynical worship. The book virtually fell open at the section on The Gbaji War and, lo and behold, here we have Lokamayadon, High(est) Priest of Orlanth, who decided to screw Orlanth completely by collaborating in the construction of the new god, Gbaji. [Ok, maybe it's debatable whether he was a True Priest Of Orlanth or not; but he was certainly well-into the cult.] Along with worshippers of other cults Lokamayadon used his magic ( =Orlanth's magic?; what other magic would he have?) in direct opposition to Orlanth's best interests. He wanted people to worship Gbaji. "He forbade all ancient rites of Orlanth. Whenever the elders attempted to initiate new boys, they were all killed. Lokamayadon tried to slowly strangle Orlanth to death in this way." [He would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for a pesky kid by the name of Harmast Barefoot. Harmast was a Hero (in the mold of Luke Skywalker) who was the first in a generation to be initiated into the true rites of Orlanth by (Obi Wan) Vargast Two-ring. Vargast was subsequently slain by Darth... er... I mean Lokamayadon. With the knowledge gained, Harmast embarked upon the first mortal LBQ. Where Orlanth had sought to recover the unjustly-slain Yelm; Harmast sought to recover all those good Orlanthi who had been unjustly-slain by Lokamayadon. Harmast returned with Arkat. I like to think that Arkat here represented the avenging spirits of all those dead Orlanthi (Ar-kat = "Our-cult"). Not surprisingly, when Gbaji met his own creating-force he self-destructed.] But I digress... The point is: would Orlanth let things progress as far as they did if he had any choice in the matter? It seems to me that Lokamayadon managed to successfully dupe the cult of Orlanth to the point that he got right to the top. Then he grossly abused his position and nearly destroyed the cult. And he wasn't on his own; there were other Orlanthi involved in creating Gbaji too. So I think the judgement of whether an initiate/priest is "truly devout" is made by the cult, not the god, and there is a chance that the cult will make a mistake. Having been caught out once, I'd imagine the Orlanthi are pretty wary of falling for the same trick again. Lokmaydism is considered evil and chaotic (and therefore presumably punishable by death). __ Ah well, apologies for the scholarly wibble. The Doc said if I roll 2 percentile dice every four hours the symptoms should pass in a coupla days. :-) ___ CW. --------------------- From: mmlab!cookec%max.mml.mmc.com@uunet.uu.net (Chris Cooke) Subject: any ideas? Message-ID: Date: 20 Jun 94 17:41:45 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4695 I'm looking for some input, I had a situation arise from last wed's game I'd like suggestions on. Rom (initiate of SB) was in combat with a Chaos 'gator, Andara (initiate of CA) used her sleep on the creature Rom was in combat with(loosing badly too) and succeeded. Even when it was obvious the creature was helpless and above her protests, Rom killed it. They both feel they acted within their cult guidelines. Rom killed a creature under her protection(ala sleep spell), other then withholding healing (and reporting it to her High Healer) what can she do? Can they reslove this? Rom feels he's done nothing wrong, the rest of the party is just blowing it all off. "We have plenty of healing don't worry about her. She'll get over it and if not, who cares." They are in the Devils swamp, searching for the remains of a Kahn-wanna-be who failed during his testing. I'd like to build her character up but not as an obvious GM ploy. I've set up cult/race incompatibilities on purpose in the past with accaptable outcomes for both sides but it looks like they are just going to ignore Andara except when they need her. Her player has already expressed an interest in a different character to keep this from happening again. I want to keep the CA and encourage more then just Hack-n-Slash. Ex ADnDers... *SIGH* any suggestions on outcomes? possible resolutions? should she have known better?(it had already been identified as Chaotic by the Storm Kahn with them) How can he make contrition?(should he?) Bear in mind they will be in the swamp a while yet(with an assult on the fort at Ogre Knoll yet to come) so Andara won't be able to report to her High Healer for a while yet. As a general rule, how would the CA at the Block deal with similer problems? -- /> Chris Cooke // (//////[O]>=========================================- \\ \> cookec@mml.mmc.com --------------------- From: Michelle_Ringo@ed.gov (Michelle Ringo) Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 20 Jun 1994, part 2 Message-ID: <9405207721.AA772144718@ed.gov> Date: 20 Jun 94 18:38:38 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4696 Cullen writes -- "I don't think I'd find RPGs interesting at all if it weren't for the chance to try out new sets of beliefs" Devin writes -- There are differences in the trappings of ancient vs modern life. And discussion of diffences between Glorantha not being a clone of Ancient Earth. These comments help support my theme which is that this entire Heort world being discussed is extremely sexist and unpleasant. Creating an entire group of cultures where no woman (that I have met) would want to play (if they followed the role of women recently outlined here) is IMO a bad idea. Much of the discussion speaks to the heart of Medieval European and all Oriental history with regards to the treatment of women, howeve, I am lead to wonder if any of you have any women playing in your campaigns. I find the entire culture totally unappealing to play in as a woman. "Slave Girls of Gor" and "My Life Three Steps Behind my Husband/Father/Brother" is extremely limiting. Yes, male dominance and oppression of women existed on earth historically. For example, Byzantine society simply numbered there daughters Prima, Secunda, Tertia, etc., due to their lack of value. Nevertheless, I would like to think that Glorantha could incorporate our more modern ideas (sometimes fantasies) about women being heroines, sorcoresses, knights, etc. in Gloranthan society. Why not expand the possible roles available to women beyond Wife of Knight, Daughter of Wizard and not make a separate sex/caste classification. --------------------- From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson) Subject: Re: He knows when you are sleeping, he knows when you're awake... Message-ID: <9406201734.AA14908@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk> Date: 20 Jun 94 18:34:41 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4697 _________________ Martin points out: > no mortal can know the mind of a god. Sure, but the bottom line is that GMs are not (Gloranthan) mortals. ___ CW. PS. No (Gloranthan) god can know the mind of a mortal. (IMHO) --------------------- From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Subject: The basic heroquest Message-ID: <9406201757.AA24464@sonata.cc.purdue.edu> Date: 20 Jun 94 07:57:06 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4698 Okay, here is the Generic Heroquest: The Bad Thing happens. The Heroes vow to correct the Bad Thing. The Heroes prepare/are prepared to Go Forth. The Heroes Meet a Guardian. The Heroes Get Past the Guardian. The Heroes Go to the Far Lands. The Heroes Encounter Lesser Threat(s). The Heroes are Tested/Tempted. The Heroes Get The Cure. The Heroes Make the Return. The Heroes Meet the Opposer of Knowledge. The Heroes Overcome the Bringer of Ignorance. The Heroes Return to the Mortal World. The Heroes Spread their Gift. The Bad Thing is stopped. It isn't the 100% perfect outline of the Generic Heroquest, but it is pretty close to what I've read. --------------------- From: Michelle_Ringo@ed.gov (Michelle Ringo) Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 20 Jun 1994, part 2 Message-ID: <9405207721.AA772145629@ed.gov> Date: 20 Jun 94 18:53:49 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4699 Henk - Please delete my message sent just prior to this as it contains an error. Thank you. Cullen writes -- "I don't think I'd find RPGs interesting at all if it weren't for the chance to try out new sets of beliefs" Devin writes -- There are differences in the trappings of ancient vs modern life. And discussion of diffences between Glorantha not being a clone of Ancient Earth. These comments help support my theme which is that this entire Hrestoli/Rokari world being discussed is extremely sexist and unpleasant. Creating an entire group of cultures where no woman (that I have met) would want to play (if they followed the role of women recently outlined here) is IMO a bad idea. Much of the discussion speaks to the heart of Medieval European and all Oriental history with regards to the treatment of women, howeve, I am lead to wonder if any of you have any women playing in your campaigns. I find the entire culture totally unappealing to play in as a woman. "Slave Girls of Gor" and "My Life Three Steps Behind my Husband/Father/Brother" is extremely limiting. Yes, male dominance and oppression of women existed on earth historically. For example, Byzantine society simply numbered there daughters Prima, Secunda, Tertia, etc., due to their lack of value. Nevertheless, I would like to think that Glorantha could incorporate our more modern ideas (sometimes fantasies) about women being heroines, sorcoresses, knights, etc. in Gloranthan society. Why not expand the possible roles available to women beyond Wife of Knight, Daughter of Wizard and not make a separate sex/caste classification. Four classes for women where none of them doing anything except traditional medieval roles of women while their men go out and do everything is very unappealing. First, of all women can and do run Farms. There is no reason to exclude women from the wizard class, since historically nothing would bar them from casting magic and in Glorantha nothing previously barred them from casting magic. Women warriors flourish throughout the world of Glorantha and there is no reason for them not to flourish in Rokari/Hrestoli. A caste system based on what one's parents were can apply equally to men and women without redefining the castes. In India you belong to the caste of your father. Since this is a patriarchal society this is one option. Each caste level has rank therefore there would be only special circumstances (such as money, power, or property) for reasons to marry outside a caste level. All of this can be done without limiting the actual roles available to women. --------------------- From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson) Subject: Re: divination to check potential cult members Message-ID: <9406201820.AA15182@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk> Date: 20 Jun 94 19:20:02 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4700 ______ Robert wonders: >What about the use of divination to check potential cult members? Chalana >Arroy uses (used? - RQII) to check whether you were really a pacifist and >would renounce violence. Given that the candidate must open themselves to >the God for this to work, I think that the God *can* know the innermost >workings of someone. Ok, to tell the truth, I just don't like cast-iron divinations of any sort. Where's the mystery? I'd say the info from the divination is just based on what the god usually knows (mostly from worshippers prayers). If the Divination gives you a "good reference" then you get accepted. A bad reference, or too-little info would result in rejection. Of course, the cult will *say* that all their divinations are 100% accurate. But then, we know what "all" means to an Orlanthi. All very much IMHO. ___ CW. --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Goddess Switch Message-ID: Date: 20 Jun 94 18:53:54 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4701 Does anyone have information where the Goddess Switch occurred, and what deities were involved? Martin Crim says it involved Peloria. The AiG authors state that the Shadowlands (Kethaela) were involved. Glorantha Book (from G:CotHW) speaks about spirits of the land. So what is this really about? -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de