From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 21 Jun 1994, part 5
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Alex errs on Loskalm
Message-ID:
Date: 20 Jun 94 18:55:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4702
Alex, in:
X-RQ-ID: 4670
> Just because the Hrestoli see Church and State as a single entity does
> nor mean that specialised offices cannot exist at all levels of society,
> combining temporal and spiritual powers to different degrees. There's
> probably an Archbishop (or whatever) for each part of the Kingdom, but
> in some areas he may have essentially only spiritual authority, with
> a number of "temporal" barons actually holding the land, while elsewhere,
> the Archbishop may be the ruling lord himself, and the local lords and
> bishops his direct vassals. On a smaller scale, one could imagine the
> same applying to lesser lords and clerics (of "Talar" rank, still, though).
>> Furthermore I posit that the Ecclesiarch (who nominally controls the
>> entire world) is higher than the king - but the Ecclesiarch has little
>> responsibility for temporal matters, while the king has much.
> I disagree with this, if only because we haven't heard of the Hrestoli
> "Ecclesiarch".
Genertela Book, p.20, Southpoint:
"Ths city is the home of the Ecclesiarch of the Hrestol sect, who handles
all theological matters relating to the Hrestoli sect, and theoretically
is Supreme Authority over all Malkioni churches. All the churches of
Fronela acknowledge his superiority."
The king (and all lesser rulers) needs to have been a wizard to be able
to be "the sacrificial hero, ready to die in the ultimate rite of his
religion." (GB p.11)
Next to the king there are the 8 princes of the provinces, assisted by
a standardized staff of noblemen. Since there is no nobility but through
meritocratic ascension, one can assume these are the ruler class of
the Hrestoli system.
> Rulership is, after all, the special duty of of "Talar"
> class, though they continue to exercise religious powers and duties. The
> King may be seen as the embodiment of Hrestol himself, if the hints about
> his Sacred Kingship are anything to go by.
Hrestol never was king. The sarificial component reminds me strongly of
Tarshite earth kings, an inheritance from the Serpent King dynasty.
> I suspect the Loskalmi high council has two or three Archbishops
> on it, though.
Why? Either all of them, plus the commanders of the eleven battles, or
a set number of elected ones (smacks of Orlanthi rings...), or none.
X-RQ-ID: 4671
>> In prehistoric times it was apparently warm enough to grow wheat in Orkney.
>> Now it's too cold. Oats and barley only.
> Be fair, we are still only half way out the last ice age.
My work in a paleoclimate project breaks to the surface.
Fact is that since the end of the last glacial temperatures have changed
cyclically, following a plethora of (mainly astronomical) cycles, not
unlike Gloranthan mythistory. Two surefire dates for a sudden drop in
average temperature are 1300 BC and AD, the first of which might have
initiated the Bronze Age mass migration of the "Sea People" into the
Mediterranean region, and the second of which eliminated the until then
successful Greenland colony of the Vikings and would have shown effects on
European population numbers as well had not the black death shown much
greater influence. The end of successful agriculture among the northern
Vikings and their almost full dedication to fishing certainly was a result
of this change in global climate.
X-RQ-ID: 4673
> Graeme Lindsell:
>> But we do know that Loskalm is one of the best organised nations on
>> Glorantha.
> Best organised for what? The only war they've fought in the last century
> was strolling in to western Junora, to (I'd estimate) zero resistance.
> cf. Austria, rather than Poland...
Best organized wrt supply, equipment, lines of command. The effective
take-over of the Junoran counties was a triumph of Loskalmi organisation,
not so much military action, as you yourself point out. Intelligent
emloyment of military forces without actual action is the better military
strategy compared to actions involving heevy losses on both sides. The
Loskalmi troops can expect no plunder which could further their equipment,
so their ambitions are less to kill and loot enemies but more to gain
ground and strategically important positions. If the kingdom of war excels
at chess, exchanging unit for unit, the Loskalmi play go and expand their
teerritory by clever deployment of their forces. Note they have a head
start of 30 years before their opponents.
> Provenly effective thugs, unlike Loskalm. There's a lot to be said for
> a bit of diversity in an army.
Which is why the Persians won over Alexander?
Although a bunch of plundering thugs can destroy a lot. The KoW are
another example of landbound Vikings in Glorantha, this time the
Great Army which harrassed western Europe for more than twenty years
and which dissolved only after a plague among their ranks. Lord Death
on a Horse might try to change this attitude, and he might succeed if
he manage to unify their bands.
Me:
>> Honour to all men, whatever his place? This sounds more like Rokari
>> doctrine to keep the serfs in their allotted places than like "let's
>> suppress our pagan farmers" Jonatela.
> It amounts to the same thing, doesn't it?
No, it doesn't. The Rokari suppress co-religious serfs, the Hrestoli
suppress pagans. The Rokari are more likely to kill infidels or force-
convert them than the Hrestoli, who might allow their pagan subjects
to qualify for their farmer caste, but won't proselytize except by
example, in the 3rd Age. In Junora this creates a legal vacuum for
the "Orlanthi" populace among the farmers in the occupied counties.
----aside on:
A question about the Fronelan Orlanthi:
We are told that in the late stage of the Gbaji wars, Harmast initiated
the second Lightbringers' Quest which brought forth Talor, the Laughing
Warrior. Talor in turn gathered a following among the Orlanthi feeling
betrayed by Arkat, went to Loskalm, killed Varganthar the Unconquerable
Knight and freed Akem from this threat, then reduced the Fronelan Telmori
threat (using a curse as potent as Arkat's over Dorastor, or Gbaji's
against the trolls), and finally came in time to witness the last duel
between Arkat and Gbaji. Then Talor and his troops returned to Fronela.
Were there Orlanthi (as in met by First Council missionaries) in Fronela
before Talor brought the Harmastings to Akem, or were his followers the
first Orlanthi to settle Oranor, Jonatela, and Charg?
aside off------
> Or are the Jonating modified Hrestoli, of some sort?
Sure they are. (Just to tease you: the Farmer Caste with the Jonatings
might be comparable to Yelm the Youth or Voriof membership in Dara Happa
or among the Theyalans.)
>> I can buy this for the Rokari, but hardly for the Jonatings. Somehow I
>> have the impression that the Ecclesiarch in Southpoint thinks that the
>> Jonating way is the right attitude towards non-believers.
> I'm lost. Whose attitude to whom are you speaking of? The Loskalmi to
> the Jonatings? Not even printable, I'd imagine. Even (especially?) if
> they are "modified Hrestoli".
The Jonatings suppress the non-believers quite brutally. They don't
proselytize among their human-shaped cattle, and when they stampede,
they are routed. The Loskalmi trade post on Ygg's Isles worked after
the same principles. Should Loskalm conquer Gharkor permanently, they'd
treat the Hsunchen natives there the same. They don't because Gharkor
offers them nothing worth conquering.
Alex:
> Persumably all Princes are Talar, but I doubt all Talar are Princes...
Prince is a little defined title, mainly denoting a class membership if
used in a late medieval feudal sense: male people belonging to the
families of the higher nobility rulers, be they kings, dukes or princes
themselves. Among the Welsh of the Crusaders' Age the princes were similar
in rank and function to those of Sartar (those Sartarite rulers who didn't
perform the Sacred Marriage, i.e. all except Sartar, Tarkalor and Argrath).
> I'd don't think "Prince" is a modification of "Talar", since he's variously
> referred to as both. But one or both could pertain only to the caste
> system as (however) it existed _before_ his own reforms. Or whatever.
I find it logical that the title the Brithini still cling to is the one
used before, and the other one is the title used thereafter.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Malkonwal, blank lands, other stuff
Message-ID:
Date: 20 Jun 94 18:55:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4703
Martin Crim in X-RQ-ID: 4659
> To take another tack, I prefer a game world where
> the Archbishop of Malkonwal can say, "God has given us the
> Archbishopric, now let us make use of it."
A nice summary of the Rokari occupation of Heortland, in my campaign.
Cullen O'Neill in X-RQ-ID: 4663
> I could go on, but instead let me take a different tack. If people
> didn't believe fervently in religion, why were they willing to kill
> other people over things like: The father has the [same nature/ a
> similar nature/ a different nature] from the son. etc, etc, etc...
Sorry to intrude with real life, but if people wouldn't believe in their
soccer teams, why would they plunder and attempt to kill when this team
wins/loses/whatever?
> And large numbers of these people would be quite willing
> to kill and/or die to protect their faith.
and even lesser identification objects, like soccer teams (everywhere
outside the US), chariot races (in Dark Age Byzantium, cf. Nika riots
event card in Credo), or whatever.
Devin in X-RQ-ID: 4664
I said that a tortured priest would DI out. Devin retorts:
> But the Priest will make DI about 18% of the time. The other 82% he will
> simply be tortured.
If you play by the rules. In this situation, I wouldn't. The worshipper
provides the deity with an opportunity to twist the compromise, and if
a deity doesn't hear an apply for help in its inner sanctum, I wonder
how it gets any info at all from the Mundane plane.
> The occurances of "Resurrection" in modern life is rare compared the the
> occurance in Glorantha.
Sez who? Game practice? Resurrection R Us?
I stand against a reliable resurrection service in Glorantha, but I don't
want to revive this dinosaur thread once again.
> Also, we in modern times have science to explain away
> this phenomenon. Gloranthans don't AND the pre-Renaissance man did not have
> these occurances of Resurrection since life-saving techniques were
> unavailable.
This is why I tossed in apparent death, a phenomenon popular enough to give
a man like Poe nightmares.
> "A question of appeal to all the Gloranthan RuneQuesters out there: can
> we make away with the concept of Blank Lands by now?"
> I always liked the idea of out-of-the-way Blank Lands, so that someone who
> was running "official Glorantha" could have free-rain and not worry too much
> about conflict.
If the blank lands were positioned there, why not. They aren't, though.
Retrint is the battle-field for the Loskalm-KoW clash, Balazar and
Garsting are right next to the main stage of Argrath vs. Red Empire and
become a stage themselves, Lalia is a crucial country for the troll-Ralios
interaction and lies too close to Seshnela to be unimportant, and only
Sulayz in Enkloso qualifies for out-of-the-way.
> Nevertheless, you are right that with Multiplicity Glorantha
> reinign supreme, the need for Blank Lands is lessened.
Thanks for your support.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 20 Jun 1994, part 3
Message-ID: <9406201901.AA10257@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 20 Jun 94 19:01:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4704
Paul Reilly here. Joerg writes:
>>>
Paul Reilly in X-RQ-ID: 4656
> I think that the Brithini and the early Malkioni believed
> that the "ghost" was just a form of leftover decomposing "spirit energy",
> similar to the decomposing matter of the body. The ghost is NOT the person.
...
Where do you put the infamous passage from Cults of Prax' Daka Fal write-up
Where do you put the infamous passage from Cults of Prax' Daka Fal write-up
about 1st Age Seshnegi Ancestor worship? (Please don't tell me it has been
Gregged, because every Greg so far did _not_ nullify earlier comments, but
did introduce a new angle of looking at the problem.)
<<<
"Early" Malkioni means "pre-time". The Seshnegi had fallen away during
several generations of post-Malkion, pre-Time ancestors. Fallen away from
the pure teachings of Malkion, that is. I would guess that the Serpent Kings
were pretty anti-Hrestol. They may have revered Malkion, but in an almost
Pagan way, as an ancestor hero/Deity. Akem, on the other hand, converts to
the pure Hrestoli faith (I think).
The ancestor worship may have been fairly widespread - Carmanians have it,
and all Malkioni have Saint's cults. I think ancestor worship segues into
Saint cults very smoothly. ^ oops
About Saints: There would be several possible views on them.
1. They are ghosts, hanging around on the spirit plane, as in Ancestor
Worship. Their Saintliness allows them to remain strong and conscious, not
decaying.
1a. This could BE the Seshnegi "Ancestor Worship" that Joerg discusses
above.
1b. If you believe in a Transcendant God and in a Solace OUTSIDE of Glorantha,
then Saints in this view are like bodhisatvas - they qualify for Solace/Nirvana
but are deliberately hanging around (on the spirit plane in the Saints' case)
to give help to others. Self-sacrificing.
1c. IF you believe in an Immanent God then the Saints are either mystically
joined to God (but still able to operate semi-independently), or not. In
the latter case see 1b above on sacrifice.
2. Saints are NOT ghosts, but are individuals in Solace in Glory, an
extraworld paradise.
2b. This sort of blows the whole Transcendant God thing out of the water.
Saints OUTSIDE the world but able to intervene aren't really OUTSIDE any more
- the world just got bigger and includes Solace. Oops. SOmebody probably
believes this, though.
3. Saints operate mystically and cannot be understood rationally. Somebody
probably believes this too.
I will send a writeup on Saints later on...
I think Malkion's original message of Solace involved more than
I think Malkion's original message of Solace involved more than
just a burial rite. It helped the Brithini who accepted it through the
turmoils of the Ice Age and the other troubles of the Darkness. I think
that it must have included some everyday component as well, although I
agree that virtually all of the original revelation was lost and forgotten
before the Dawning.
Oops ... I am not on my home machine and can't fix that. Previous
paragraph is another quote from Joerg.
I agree, the burial rite was just ONE of the aspects. However the key
message about Solace is Solace from Death. (COnfirmed by Greg, for what that'
s worth.) Again, I will post a long writeup about this - I think the
original converts were Brithini who were doomed to die for whatever reason.
Joerg continues:
>>>significantly several times in history. One turning point is given
significantly several times in history. One turning point is given
AARGH! Try again:
>>>
I think Paul, I and a few other people agree that Malkionism changed
significantly several times in history. One turning point is given
as Arkat's arrival in Seshnela, where he brought spiritual unity to
gain support for his crusade against Tanisor, another is the Return to
Rightness Crusade, the next is the de-God Learnerisation at the end of
the Second Age in Fronela, Seshnela and Ralios.
<<<
Basically agree. However, as in Christianity or the long-running Platonic
vs. Stoic vs. Epicurean competition, I think the same ideas keep resurfacing
over and over, so there is stability inside the changes.
ALso I would add another turning point or two.
>
>Hmm. Neither the Walhalla myths nor the Islamic paradise are elements of
>western monotheistic religions, but to the typical member of these religions
I was including Islam in the Western monotheistic religions. Dividing
line implicit here around India instead of the usual Anatolia.
Both Late Norse paganism and all of Islam are deeply influenced by Christian
models. Consider the evolution of Loki from a trickster into a more Devil
like figure.
Note also that the Heroes of Valhalla aren't selected for 'goodness' but
for fighting ability, and they are not being rewarded per se but are recruits
for Ragnarok, after which they are gone, just like the gods. Not "heavenly
reward" in the Christian sense.
Compare also many other cultures - my point was not that afterlives of
heavenly reward are unknown or even uncommon but that they are far from
universal. The standard cult format in the RQ rules makes it look like one
of the main functions of any religion is to provide a cushy afterlife, when
in fact many religions don't even address the issue.
Joerg writes about DI and my comment that I didn't allow it on "enemy holy
ground":
And it makes even minimaxers go for Sanctify, which makes an excellent
Interesting point. NOte that you could make a Dueling Ground Sanctified
to two enemy deities - both deities agree to keep hands off there. For
Humakt and ZZ, say. SOrt of a local enhancement of the Great Compromise.
Some traditional Heroquest sites must function like this - holy to both
sides, allowing DI by neither. Say for example the Hill of Gold, holy to
Antirius, Yelmalio, Zorak Zoran (Deshkorgos the Cruel GOd), Orlanth, etc.
- Paul
---------------------
From: habowman@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Hal Bowman)
Subject: Neophyte Questions
Message-ID:
Date: 21 Jun 94 00:57:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4705
Greetings!
I've had some trouble getting these questions on to the Net. Here's one
more try! After much encouragement, here are the first of my New Kid
questions:
1. Is there a write-up of the White Moon Cult a la Gods of Glorantha, etc?
There are references to it in various books, but I've never
seen a 'complete' description.
2. Is there a 'clear' description of what one does during a Hero Quest?
Is it just renacting? Does one leave the physical world?
What spells, etc. are used to start one?
3. Is there a 'clear' description of what one does to 'bind' a spirit
to oneself? Again, lots of references, but I can't find a final
description or list of spells.
Before these come up, I'm trying to find answers. Number 1 will
come up Friday.
Thanks for the help!
Hal Bowman habowman@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
---------------------
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: The great Babeestor Gor scam
Message-ID: <199406210259.KAA24941@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 21 Jun 94 19:09:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4708
I think that the truth in Glorantha actually is that it is possible
that a person who wants Axe trance can actually gain it by becoming an
initiate of Babeestor Gor, and then carrying out the Axe trance ritual, as
long as they actually sacrifice the Power at both points to create the
necessary magical link. I do NOT think that it is necessary to obey the
cult restrictions of the BG cult, or even particularly like them, or even
be at all well disposed towards BG herself, or whatever. Theoretically an
oath breaker or despoiler of the earth could even do this.
Obviously the societal restrictions are the most obvious problem in
this case (especially as an active temple is required), but not necessarily
in other cases.
But I also think that to become an initiate and accept Rune magic
from a deity that you have no empathy with requires an inner duplicity and
self-control (or self-delusion/hypnosis?) that is beyond most Gloranthans.
The people who can do this are the illuminates. The Illuminated do not
radiate guilt for the spirits of reprisal to home in one. The Illuminated
do not truly believe in anything (except themselves, for the Gbaji, or the
world and their place in it, for the Light Side), so they can manage to do
what others cannot. In other words, scamming the gods is a game for the
illuminated and God-Learners, not something normal people can do. Many
illuminates do it all the time, however.
Cheers
Dave Cake
---------------------
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: The Imboyngi
Message-ID: <199406210300.LAA24998@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 21 Jun 94 19:10:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4709
There is a document that I have written about Doraddi culture,
basically a 'this is how the Doraddi think, this is how they interact' sort
of thing. So far the only people that have seen it are MOB and Sandy (Sandy
liked it). I based it partly on real North African culture.
I definately mentioned the Imboyngi, though I called them bards
(same folks though). Sounds like these people should definately be in RQ.
In my version there is a fair amount of overlap between Imboyngi and
shamans, and Imboyngi and Jmije as carriers of messages between the tribes,
but I am not particularly attached to this view of things if there is
dissent.
MOB, or someone, I plan to submit this to Tales. Will Tales have a
problem if it has already been posted here?
Cheers
Dave Cake