From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 24 Jun 1994, part 4
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From: jclannom@mathlab.mtu.edu (Joe Lannom)
Subject: Divine Interventions
Message-ID: <9406231726.AA06344@mathlab.mtu.edu>
Date: 23 Jun 94 17:26:20 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4773
Nils Weinander comments:
>I prefer a rule where really devout worshippers, priests, rune lords
>and exceptional initiates can get divine favours. If you have done
>something really important for the cult you get one divine favour
>which can be stores away, and later traded in for a divine intervention
>when you need it.
>
No sir, can't say I like it.
I like the rule as it stands now... people shouldn't be DI-ing for
everyday stuff, but in situations where its "them or me", or sometimes
"me or not me". Last resort, or "I really need this" situations, some
danger should be involved... and not something that can easily be healed.
Unlike a few around here, I don't view the gods as infinite autonoma, push
a few buttons and you get a gumball, but as ancient intelligent entities
watching and waiting for a chance to get in on the action. They DO have
some say as to what is going on... if the characters are on a very
important quest, then the god is watching and I'll give them a bonus on
their DI roll... if for some reason they've become a favorite of their
god, they get a permanent bonus (eg: Speaks-Twice).
If they piss their god(s) off, they might get a spirit of retribution for
bothering them when they were in the shower ("Caaan't a Genie get any
PRIVACY around here!?") or simply a penalty.
This way the GM still has good control over DI.. and the players work
harder to please the gods (role play) ALL the time. This way, even if the
GM doesn't want them to get a DI, they could roll an 01 or two in a row,
or whatever you decide it takes to get a DI... The god WAS watching, and
granted it. Improbable things happen in glorantha.
Besides, I thought this was the vow that was made during the compromise:
(no quotes, its paraphrased from memory)
No diety may interfere or meddle with Glorantha except when the world is
in danger through their non-action, or they are called upon by a
worshipper.
Those are the two conditions... am I all wet, or is this the case? Or has
it changed somewhere along the line? (I've probably simply forgotten
something that was a little inconvenient at the time, so...)
[Warning: Twisted view of Glorantha ahead]
I suppose I look at the God plane like a giant couch with all the Gods
sitting there, munching on chips and viewing Glorantha through the lens of
the Hero Plane. Only the good myths get syndicated and played as re-runs
(ahhhh, RRiiicky!!!). If they're not on your channel.... they don't see
whats going on. Every once in while Arachne Solara comes on for GDtv
(Gloranthan Diety tv) and announces late breaking news... new channel line
ups, etc. (That moon messed up reception for a LONG time... )
Sacred time is kind of like pledge week for the Public Broadcasting
System. (What!? The Light bringers quest again!? I saw this LAST week.
Lets see whats on the Pavis Channel... hey look! That Rascal Rurick is in
a new sitcom! Alright, where'd Eurmal put the remote....)
[end bizarre comments]
Uh, sorry. Got carried away
I agree with Brandon Brylawski's comments on the subject.
joe lannom
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: More on herding on foot.
Message-ID: <9406231729.AA14937@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 23 Jun 94 17:29:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4774
According to the Box-Shaped Oracle, English shephards who were dugless
used bull-roarers to Encourage the sheep on their way. A happy
circumstance, since we know Orlanthi use them. (In fact, I think this
makes about three uses.)
Alex.
---------------------
From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Well, that about wraps it up for God...
Message-ID: <9406231713.AA23836@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 23 Jun 94 18:13:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4775
_____
Devin
(about Lokamayadon):
>we can blame Orlanth's inability to react [...] on Illumination.
We sure can. How about this:
Orlanth reacts to rituals reflexively. Those who realise this and act
accordingly are, de facto, Illuminated.
The only reason non-illuminates can't do what illuminates do is because they
don't think it will work.
I'm sure Priests use Illumination as an excuse to explain lapses in the
functionality of their deity, all the time. And their flock believes it too.
>CW> I'd say the info from the divination is just based on what the god usually
>CW> knows (mostly from worshippers prayers). If the Divination gives you a
>CW> "good reference" then you get accepted. A bad reference, or too-little info
>CW> would result in rejection.
>
>Well then, what's the point of the Divination in the first place? Why not
>just ask around and get the opinion of the temple members verbally?
It's easier. It canvases the entire cult's opinion in one shot; not just
the local punters. If the Priest knows the candidate personally then he might
forgo the formality of Divination completely. I'd imagine it is used most
frequently on strangers.
Divination always has a chance of failing (being misinterpreted). I like to
have a way of explaining this other than "you failed your POWx5".
_______
Brandon:
>I use the following dicta to decide what your God knows or doesn't [...]
This is a fine set of guidelines. (ie. I like 'em cos they don't conflict
with my own ideas too much :-)
____________
Barron Chugg:
> This is the crux of my idea: that runemagic comes from within. Now, you
>cannot get it without following some path, that is to say, by emulating
>your diety. These pathes were created in the Godtime and are woven into
>the very fabric of reality. Religon, in my view, is just the following of
>these pathes.
This is an Outstandingly Cool Idea IMHO.
My only quibble is: why does one *have* to follow an existing path?
I propose that fresh paths can be forged and, if these new paths are
subsequently well-trodden enough (by a cult-load of worshippers all doing
the same magic in the same way) and the route is complex enough then eventually
a "new god" may form.
Did this not happen with Zistor the Machine and the Red Goddess?
Once the god-track is established then the magic becomes easier; but the
downside is that it becomes vulnerable to other gods (cults).
Hmm, the idea of gods forming around cults rather than cults forming around
gods is interesting...
___
CW.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Malkioni wenches
Message-ID: <9406231732.AA14954@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 23 Jun 94 17:32:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4776
Cullen O'Neill:
> Re: Rokari Women.
> Why is there any argument about this?
> _Strangers in Prax_ makes it quite clear on pages 64 and 66:
Because: "Published" =/= "One True World";
We're arguing mainly about the Hrestoli;
This only tells us about their roles, not their (nominal) caste;
And because I haven't read SiP. ;-)
However, I'd not disagree with the printed (quoted (deleted)) passage, and
I think it applies to Orlanthi-all Westerners, not just the Rokari.
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: the Kingdom of War, those cheery chaps.
Message-ID: <9406231744.AA14981@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 23 Jun 94 17:44:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4777
David Cake suggests Furious Faction Fighting in the Kingdom of War:
> I base this idea on the basis that they must have been fighting each
> other constantly before the borders opened.
Well, they had various people to kill first, such as the trolls, and whatever
other human communities were in the area Banned.
> Besides, you have traditional enemies lke Humakt and Zorak Zoran.
Yup. I suspect that ZZ is _exceedingly_ big in the KoW, both because of the
troll influence, and because, to paraphrase Sandy, human worshippers of ZZ
tend to be such nether orifices of prodigious power.
> For example in my KOW there is one 'standard'
> Humakti group, though more death oriented than most Theyalans, the leaders
> of whom are tempted towards the Lead Cross HeroQuest path (which gives them
> and edge against the ZZers).
Lead Cross HQ? Is that a ZZ Hpath, or what?
> There is also a Humakti group that uses sorcery
> rather than spirit magic (and refer to themselves as Humcti), and also a
> group who have forsaken the sacred Humakt quick death and broadened it to
> include all death - they consider Mallia a sub-cult (I stole this one from
> Paul Reilly).
This gives me an idea: clearly sorcerous KoWers get to Use and Abuse the
Serfly population by Tapping them, but what about the poor depr(i|a)ved
theists? For example, one of the above groups of Humakti may forcibly
"initiate" serfs into their cult, and make them sacrifice mps (and possibly
POW, too) to the god. A kind of "propitiatory" Death worship, if you will --
worship, or the Warriors kill you. ;-/
> Also the three Humakti sects observe duelling conventions, which means that
> negotiations between them seldom break down into open warfare - which is
> almost as good as being allies in the KOW.
They do? How wimpy. I'd not expect this if (at least one) had arisen as
a "Humakt spirit cult", rather than as an off-shoot of the Theyalan cult.
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Safelstran
Message-ID: <9406231801.AA15067@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 23 Jun 94 18:01:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4778
David Dunham:
> I would like Joerg's suggestion of using "Orlando" in Safelster (since they
> don't speak a Theyalan language), except Safalster is part of Ralios, so
> you'd expect "Worlath" to be used...
Safelstran isn't a Theyalan language? I dunno for sure, but I supposed
that it was, since the sub-dialects of Ralian Theyalan aren't listed, while
the Western languages are, and Safelstran doesn't figure. Doubtless has
many Western loan-words, at least, and may be influenced by Western in
structure. And also, it may be written using Western script.
> For parts of Trickster to come to mischief through
> his deeds is completely different than having them severed by someone else.
Well, maybe. I think it's more a matter of whether the "damage" is
mythically undone, by some means. After all, the sun isn't still dead,
and Mastakos can manage a fair turn of speed these days.
> Bryan Maloney, still speaking from a position of technological superiority,
> says >There are mail-servers for FTP, you know...
> Some people can't receive large mail, however.
There are also such things as multi-part shell archives,
too.
Lewis, a victim of the MessyDos conspiracy, diagnoses:
> They are in the JPEG (.jpg) format which may cause you some
> problems as not all software supports it.
[...]
> I am using a PC platform which might limit some of the choices.
Why not investigate jpg -> gif conversion? I know that xv for X-Windows
does this, at least. If people are mad keen on having gif versions, lacking
any jpg viewing/conversion facilties, some of we Technically Superior people
could perhaps upload such conversions, too.
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Ripping off the Gods of Gullibility, or not.
Message-ID: <9406231805.AA15090@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 23 Jun 94 18:05:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4779
Colin Watson:
> >IMO one who knows the appropriate rituals (and how to perform them)
> >to get Axe Trance (reusably) effectively *becomes* a priestess of
> >Babeester Gor regardless of how they reached that status or how they
> >intend to use it.
SYS_RSH%PV0A:
> A good point, but I don't entirely buy into the "regardless" part.
> I'll grant perhaps that their intentions can be masked, but I think
> it makes a difference as to how they reached "priest" status. After
> all, part of the point of sacking power to the god (Joerg and Alex,
> STAY OUT OF THIS! ) is to create a link to the god through
> which magic flows.
Did you call, Mr. Heat Sink? (Or may I call you Official? ) I don't
think Joerg and I particularly disagree about this (with each other, or with
you), though we may have a difference in interpretation of how it "works",
exactly. But in any case, the most obvious way to "rip off" a god is to
recreate their rituals reasonably closely, _including_ sacrifice of POW and
mps, but simply with cynical/powermongering/minimaxing intent. Trial and
error may also reveal where the ritual or sacrifice may be (apparently)
safely short-cut or skimped on.
> No sacrifice, to way to scarf up magic. I think
> you must be initiated at some point to pull this off. (One could
> argue that by learning the ritual, one sacks POW, but that's
> stretching it....)
No, I'd argue that initiation is itself a ritual, which (generally)
involves sacking the pointa POW. This ritual is normally a "prerequisite"
to (successful) completion of the other rituals, such as the ones which
will get you the magic. Many of the elements of traditional initiation
are mainly social in content and purpose, and a cynical group of worshippers
could certainly muck around with them a fair bit and they'd still "work",
I'm quite sure. Perhaps the god will get wind up this presently, and hose
them appropriately, according to one's view in such matters.
> True, but... :) It seems obvious that the gods know about things in
> mundane Glorantha that no worshipper really knows. I admit that this
> "tertiary" knowledge is pretty hazy most of the time, but I think
> that whilst the gods might be limited in their actions (because of
> the Compromise), they can still fiddle with the remote control and
> WATCH things. Ergo, the gods know more about you than you think.
> The primary and secondary knowledge might have more weight, but I
> still think they'd know what else you'd been doing, even in secret.
To paraphrase Professor Greg, no-one in Glorantha is omni-anything. Whilst
in principle they can Tune In to any worshippers viewpoint, at least to
some unstated degree, their interest in doing so is going to be fairly
limited, unless the worshipper is doing something _interesting_, like
praising him to the roof insulation. And if the god does happen to notice
someone doing something Mildly Naughty, what's he going to do about it?
Dispatch the odd impest (or local equivalent), if he happens to be feeling
unusually Old Testament at that non-instant.
If one has to be a complete Goody Two Shoes in order to get effective magic,
how do we account for all the arseholes in Glorantha, past and present, who
patently _have_ had it? And how do Illuminates fit into the picture?
> I just like my gods to be, well, godly.
You mean distracted, not very concerned with the Real World, and busy off
Recreating their Youth someplace?
Devin Cutler edicts:
> Asie from my previous
> objectiosn to this, I would rule that the rituals cannot be done properly
> without being devoted.
\begin{Lord "Larry, dear Larry" Olivier impersonation}
Haven't you heard of The Method, deah bhoy?
\end{Whatsit}
> I haven't been following this thread too closely, but isn't it possible to
> say that Eurmal is a Murderer simply because he was the indirect cause of
> every murder commited since Godtime by his finding of Death?
No, not in the sense of the Trickster Murderer aspect, which after all grants
the spell of Strike, which is a direct cause of Death by anyone's standards.
> Humakt doesn't care if Chaotics worship him. As far as not acting in a
> Humakti fashion, they are Illuminated, aren't they? Same for the Chalanna
> Arroy broo.
They are? Not impossible, but not likely, I don't think, and not an
explanation to be invoked every time someone strays from the One True
Cult Writeup. Are all the B'stards in the KoW worshipping Humakt illuminated,
too?
> Also, I believe the 7 day [limit for Resurrection] rule was dropped from RQ3.
But not from Glorantha. In any case, RQ3 uses a different mechanism with
much the same upshot. 7D3 loss to each of four characteristics will
generally ruin your whole week, really.
> In Cults of Prax, most of the Spirits of Reprisal seem to be able, on their
> own, to excommunicate apostates. I have always viewed the RQ3
> "ecommunication" spell as an Alternate Earth spell set up because they do not
> have Spirits of Reprisal
Probably partially true, but in many cases the Spirit of Reprisal will be
summonned/invoked by a high priest, rather than dreaming it up all by itself,
or doing so under direct orders from God HQ.
> Because Gods cannot invasively read the minds of worshippers, but they CAN,
> over a period of time, by observing rituals, tell whether an initiate is
> truly devout.
So if I perform the rituals correctly, I am, by definition, devout? This
merely leaves the question of how hard it is in practice to be Cynically
Devout.
Colin Watson:
> The gods sacrificed their free will to save the world. On the Mundane Plane
> the cults now manipulate the gods more than the gods manipulate the cults.
> That is the magnitude of the Compromise.
I agree with this. Of course, the cults don't (generally) look at it like
that: they (each) think they're following the One True Word.
> - Even in the event of success; if *any* other Humakti priests found out about
> it, these "new worshippers" would be excommunicated so fast it would make
> their heads spin clean orf. And they would be right back at square one.
I disagree with this particular bit: one should only be able to excomm.,
or sic spirits of reprisal on, cultists from the same "hierarchy".
(Otherwise Humakti duals between two High Swords becomes "Excommunication
Quick Draw". )
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Sun Dragon type stuff.
Message-ID: <9406231809.AA15102@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 23 Jun 94 18:09:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4780
Joerg pouts:
> I'm still a bit unhappy about the Sun Dragon bit for Kralorela.
[...]
> The deities of Kralorela as I see them are (variants of?) the Solar and
> Earth deities as worshipped elsewhere.
This only seems to upset you because you insist on an equation of these
deities, and a One True Monomyth.
> They are as draconic in nature as are the Lightbringers.
You mean like Holana Long, the Healing Dragon?
> But since the Kralori are so insisting that the EWF way could
> not be the right draconic way
And the 'newts insist the Kralori are on drugs when they claim their
emperors are dragons, no?
> I hesitate to make them identify deities
> (who are of the world) with dragons (who are originally from outside of
> the world).
Clearly the Kralori aren't so big on this sort of distinction.
> Other than in (the early stages of) the EWF, only the magically most
> advanced individuals get access to unmediated draconic powers in
> Kralorela, which means draconic speech and understanding.
The Path of I.M. lot would claim such, but then, _everyone_ thinks they're
on drugs. I don't think the Kralori see most of the allegedly cosmicly
important deities as much less important as objects of worship and sources
of magic than is typically the case elsewhere.
> Anything the Pentans did was considered improper by the Dara Happans.
> Even if it was a proven method, I doubt the Dara Happans would have
> copied much from their former overlords. See below.
Apart from Mere Details like sun worship, you mean?
> A question of appeal to all the Gloranthan RuneQuesters out there: can
> we make away with the concept of Blank Lands by now?
I don't think the Blank Lands as such are a bad (or outdated) idea, but
I do agree that some of the nominees are a bit laughable. What would be
useful would be a map of Glorantha marked in Isogregs, according to how
much is likely to appear in future AH and/or Chaosium publications about
particular areas, all other things being equal.
Alex.