Bell Digest v940624p5

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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 24 Jun 1994, part 5
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Joerg does Time.
Message-ID: <9406232017.AA15674@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 23 Jun 94 20:17:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4782


Me:
> >>>On the other hand, was 0ST the "Real" start of Time?

> > Graeme Lindsell:
> >>  What is Time itself? No one seems to have a clear grasp of what it is,
> >> except it means "God can't pay personal visits any more".

Joerg: 
> Time the deity/Power is the building block of the universe which keeps 
> the other building blocks, sometimes equated with Runes, from clashing 
> randomly.

To wit, the Compromise.  But why is Time, Time, if there's no difference
in the causality "before" and "after"?  After all, the Theyalan myths,
which Joerg ardently supports as the One True Truth whenever any other
myth dares to contradict it, do claim that Time _is_ Time in the above
sense.  How can one defend the One True Truth when the One True Truth
claims that it isn't the One True Truth?  So there. ;-)

> >> The period
> >> called the Godtime seems to be causal ie there's no myths about the event
> >> preceeding the cause. 

> > But that could be just timist interpretation.

> Call me in with the timists and causalists then.

I already had, Joerg. ;-)

> > Sandy suggests that in
> > Genertela, the Sun fell, then chaos invaded, while in Pamaltela, choas
> > invaded, causing the sun to fall.  These _could_ be two different causal
> > glosses on acasual, timeless, events.

> I am convinced that 
> Moorgarki led his trolls into Pamaltela after Yelm had created hellfire 
> (by visiting involuntarily), and before a fragment of the Sun crashed 
> into the Nargan Sea.

So the sun falls, and the Pamaltelans make no mention of the event at all?
This implies that the persons believing that the invasion of chaos preceded
the fall of the sun (and not vice versa) are:-  a) very unobservant;
b) biased, and giving a false account for their own reasons; or
c) mendacious and/or absentminded for the fun and recreation of it.

> My reason for this is that Yelm left through the 
> Gates of Dusk (as Granddad did, too), and not through an anonymous sea 
> on an obscure southern continent.

But this is "evidence" from the already contradictory Genertelan myth.
In other words, your belief is that since the myths contradict each other,
one of them is Misguided.  This suggests to me that the unfortunate people
who believe the Less Correct version are going to come a cropper when they
HQ using it as a guide.  Or does this have no effect, making which myth of
several conflicting ones is "true" something of a moot question?  (Which,
with caveats, I believe.)

> (What was the continent called during early Godtime, BTW? Lodrilela?

What was something called _"during"_ non-time?  As a Timist Agnosic, I
pass.

> Why call it after an "Earth-King" who 
> had neither taken the rule nor proven his worth? We know that Magasta 
> rose to prominence only when the Spike exploded, but he doesn't claim 
> any earlier rule. Does Pamalt?)

Don't think so, but "What's the name of this continent, Guidefather?" isn't
exactly the stuff of campfire tales.  The name is probably no earlier than
the God Learners.  Before that, it was probably just "Jolar" (or whatever),
then "The World".  Probably still is, in many places.

> Another thing most people seem to ignore is the presence of the deities 
> in the world at the star of time. They are all there, and they instruct 
> their peoples before retreating into the realm of myth, aren't they?

Well, people Would Say That, Wouldn't They?  Worshippers aren't going to
go moaning  "And he buggered off about 67BT, without a word.  <*snerf*>",
are they?

> [The Dara Happans] must have been pretty embarrassed that the sun rose and
> they weren't there to greet it with the ceremonial pomp and splendor they 
> felt it was due from them as its descendants, and so in a backward 
> realisation they concluded that the true sun couldn't have risen before 
> they had regained the imperial rule.

Clearly, but they don't say "Yelm rises, time starts" at _any_ point
(other than 0YS).

> Aether created his "sons" Dayzatar, Yelm, 
> Lodril and Arraz/Lux by diverting some of his substance to a new use.

That's what people say, yes.  Doesn't, by any chance, sound like a Feeble
Rationalisation, at all?

> [...] the 
> various surface fires, which subdivided into Yelm (as the sun is known 
> in Dara Happa and Kralorela), Ehilm, Somash, Elmal and others.

Hang on: these are all, at present, the same heavenly body, right?  What
do you mean when you talk about subdivision?  Are you speaking about their
mythic essence, rather than their "bodily" substance?

> The story that King Griffon is one of the parts of 
> Yelm sound abstruse to me.

What story is that?  You're not conflating King Griffon and Vrimak, by any
chance?

> Yelm begat a whole bunch of planetary deities on his wife Ernalda

Blasphemer!  It was, of course, upon the Good Wife, Dendara.  Where's my
list of Dara Happan execution methods when I need it?

But the fact that the Theyalans would say Yelm's children were born to
Ernalda, underlines the problems of trying to get them all to "agree".

> (whom 
> he elevated from an obscure earth deity (if at all) to a planetary 
> deity)

Waitaminute, are you saying Dendara _is_ Ernalda?  Goddess Switch city, man.

> > This implies that there is something
> > different about the Godtime, since there are (at least now) several different,
> > "true" myths which can be HQ'd back to.

> As there are within Time. How else do you explain the five Arkats? Each 
> of them is the true one...

These chaps (the various Arkati factions) don't have (notably) different
views on what the "historical" Arkat did, or was.  Clearly they have
different _expectations_ of what the "true" Arkat would be like if he
returned, which may (partly) explain the five allegedly imminently immanent
manifestations.

But given that Arkat has previously managed to appear as several people,
and given that (at least) four of them are (going to be) probably lying,
this is not the stuff of great inconsistency.  Certainly not the kind of
inconsistency which manifests in terms of certain different myths, which
could not simultaneous be factually, literally true.

> >>> Does Time for the DHans start a few thousand years earlier?

> >>  Do they have a concept of Time as opposed to time? To them, the withdrawal
> >> of the gods is due to the corruption of the earth world, isn't it?

> I think yes, only Plentonius chooses to delay the start of Time well 
> into the Theyalan Time-line.

There's no evidence of this.  Plentonius describes the pre-Yelm era in
just the terms as the Yelm era, not admitting anything before the "year"
OYS to be timeless.

> As I said above, time measurement in the pre-Dawn is subjective at 
> best, although causality generally was there. Neither Larnste nor Acos 
> would have had it otherwise, nor Tylenea. And even Ratslaff would have 
> produced a paradox only so that his authorship, i.e. himself as cause, 
> would have been clear.

What are you suggesting, that the nature of the universe was determined
by Qualified Majority Vote in the Council of Ministers of the Celestial
Court?  Lack of causality only produces paradoxes when you try and
retroactively sequentialise the originally timeless events, so I'm not
convinced by its characterisation as an Evil Plot.

Alex.

---------------------

From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: See Peloria, then DI.
Message-ID: <9406232029.AA16100@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 23 Jun 94 20:29:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4783


> >[Sandy]'ll only say that [his] house rules hold that enemy holy ground
> >cannot be DIed within.

Paul R:
>   I've always played this way too, despite what "the rules" said.  Actually
> I thought it should work the other way around - in an enemy God's territory
> your God might still be able to give you hints, but direct intervention would
> violate the Compromise.  Also, the limitation makes for better stories.

Note that the restriction isn't on casting Divination _in_ an enemy temple,
but casting in it "at" an enemy temple.  Rune magic appears to work in
wrongly-sanctified areas, for some weird reason.

Joerg:
> And it makes even minimaxers go for Sanctify, which makes an excellent 
> preparatory spell for combat if it keeps enemies from DIing, taking much 
> of the effectivity from the enemy Rune Lords.

You took the very words.  I think a suitable compromise would be to say
that an enemy place of worship makes it progressively harder to DI out of
(or Divine into), depending on the size, defences, etc, of the particular
site.

PR:
>   Oops, I think I just smashed my own argument that the Red Emperor need not
> fear usurpation.  Oh, well...

Doesn't need much smashing: we already know the RE is selected by a process
of HeroQuesting/backstabbing/selection/politicking, not by being The First
Born Son, or any such rot.

Alex.

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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex)
Subject: Spirits, Swords.
Message-ID: <9406232031.AA16106@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 23 Jun 94 20:31:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4784


I wonder:
> > If I were a skeptical Gloranthan, or one from a non-Daka Fal  
> >tradition, would I be convinced by a gibbering travesty of a ghost  
> >that the spirit survives death without any change?

Sandy explicates:
> 	"See, my child, the awful fate that awaits those who die  
> without assurance of Orlanth's mercy."

Indeed, just what I meant.

> 	The fact that a change awaits those who dies doesn't meant  
> the part of the spirit is necessarily missing. I'd rather have the  
> subdivided soul beliefs be restricted to a minority of sects.

I wasn't thinking of what most cults believe (I agree with you there), but
rather musing about a possible meta-mechanism for what "really" happens.
 Help Me, I know.  Granted, the simplest such would be
an "according to what they believe, mostly" scheme.  Since most traditions
don't, apparently, flatly contradict the truth of the others (just hurl
abuse, really), this is probably feasible.

> 	I think it is mythically important that Humakt be the First  
> Killer. Greg once told me that the first words Humakt spoke after  
> slaying Grandfather Mortal were: "What the hell? It wasn't supposed  
> to do THAT!" The implications re: Eurmal are quite fine indeed. 

Well, while I, and others, are "quoting Greg to stymie Sandy", note that
in The Sword Story (KoS), it _is_ Eurmal and Grandfather Mortal who manage
this trick entirely by themselves, with liberal helpings of collective
stupidity.  A somewhat earlier answer to my question, if I'd bothered
looking it up.

Probably Greg was on a different phase of his "Hate Humakt (Cyclical)"
passion when asserting the above version...

As to what the Humakti themselves say, I'd guess that (and I can see
Devin Cutler lathering up at the mouth already) it depends on whom one
asks.  How the local cult balances the (in this case, somewhat conflicting)
virtues of Dealing Death, Acting Honourably, and Not Looking Stupid.

Alex.

---------------------

From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Theories
Message-ID: <940623203055_100270.337_BHL58-2@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 23 Jun 94 20:30:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4785

______
Graeme came out with a:

> [Hmmm, nice theory, perhaps I should publish]

about the Lunar Empire and Sartar. Well, I believed it... 

> I think modern Loskalm is a product of the Ban, and of King Siglat's
> work. His inhuman intelligence - and the Syndics Ban - allowed this
> system to function. Now both Siglat and the Ban are gone, the system
> is starting to fail, and will either collapse or attempt military
> conquest to convert the rest of Fronela.

I also agree 100% with this analysis: exactly what I think is happening.

> Greg seems to have cultures whom he doesn't like, and to whom he gives
> attitudes he finds reprehensible. The Western attitude to women seems
> to be one of them.

Ah, *that's* the difference in our workings methods. I take the cultures I 
*like*, and give them reprehensible customs and attitudes...

__________
David Cake on New Pelorian:

> Storm might always be talked of as low status, Moon and Sun always as
> high status.

One feature of some Gloranthan products that I'm tempted to assign to New 
Pelorian is the so-called "Air Rune". Come off it, guys: it's the STORM @ 
Rune! "Air" is a sort of empty wimpy nothingness, like that slut Molanni. 
"Storm" is a proper, *manly* Element that I'd be proud to run & shout for. 
So, IMHO, "Air" is the New Pelorian word for "Storm".

Similarly, the alleged misprints in "Cults of Terror" - with Disorder Runes 
replacing Chaos Runes everywhere - are another subtle attempt to influence 
public opinion in favour of the Chaos Gods. Looks like Moonies at work...

____
Nils and Teshnos:

> Who will be stuck with Night? Presumably the poor casteless, since
> Night can't be that positive an epithet in a solar-dominated land.

Of course. I thought this was your intention, by having a fourth caste but 
not stating its solar aspect.

I said:
>> I suspect that the "release from the cycle of reincarnation" is an
>> aspect of Kralori Mysticism imported to Teshnos, not local.

Nils:
> I don't think so. Reincarnation is a part of solar thinking. I don't
> remember the reference...

(RQ Companion Jonstown Compendium, plus sundry mentions on this list)

> I see reincarnation as a typical Teshnan view, while the Kralorelans,
> who follow the dead dragon emperor away from this world forever are not
> subject to the cycle.

Exactly my point! Reincarnation = Teshnan thinking; release from cycle of 
reincarnation = Kralori thinking. Is there a problem with this?

> Where is Zoria?

North Fronela. Where they invented Swedish Blondes, the Sauna, and various 
other essential aspects of civilised living.

_____________
Philip Juffs:

> I doubt whether the Romans would have had as much 'fun' with Alexander
> the Great...

Eh? Romans (and Greeks) were happy to dispute the leadership aspects of
this in antiquity, but as with yesterday's "Heroic Mob" blooper, perhaps 
you've forgotten that when the Roman legions came up against Macedonian 
phalanxes they defeated them handily.

_____________
Colin Watson:

> When it says "Orlanth did this, Orlanth thought that"; try "the cult of
> Orlanth did this, the cult of Orlanth thought that". Before you know it,
> the battle between the gods becomes a clash of cultures.

This method works very nicely for me. Cf. Greg Stafford's letter re: the 
Broken Earth cults in Tales #7 for more of the same.

>> What makes you think a Troll could become a Yelmalian simply by
>> performing normal initiation rituals?

> Well, she could possibly get the magic attributed to Yelmalio by this
> means (is this what you mean by "becoming a Yelmalian"?).

Easier to use the standard troll rituals for obtaining Yelmalion powers... 
just ask Amastan, down in your local Zorak Zoran caverns.

______________
Keith Stevens:

> Is there a source (or could someone tell me) what are all the known
> Runes?

No published source contains all of them. If you have the "Introduction to 
Glorantha" book from the old "Deluxe RuneQuest" box (or, I'd imagine, the 
equivalent chapter in the new book), you'll be missing just a few. I hope 
I'm covering them all below:

The funny one Godunya has is usually called Dragon.

The unusual one Pamalt has is called Power, or Pamalt.

The odd one for Gorgorma is the Shadow rune, an odd form of Darkness.
Similarly, Valind has the Cold rune, which is another Darkness variant.

That peculiar one on Krarsht is the Hunger rune, often called Undead.

Lodril has Heat and Yelmalio Light, both being subsets of Fire/Sky.

Asrelia has Luck, and Ty Kora Tek Fate.

Any I've missed? If you don't have the sources I mention, I could run along 
one of those Runic page headers in a private mailshot to try and sort them 
out for you...

_____________
Barron Chugg:

> One thing I'd like to see in Gloranthan publications: Female, Lunar
> military officers ... the everyday army seems dominated by men.

Agreed. But the Army and the Empire are the masculine aspect of the Red 
Moon; the Priesthood and the Lunar Way are its more important, feminine 
manifestation. As important as "Priestess" being the default title for a 
Rune Priest of the Seven Mothers, is that "Lord" is the default for Rune 
Lords and Ladies alike. IMHO. So the everyday army is dominated by men.

         ______
And now, Devin:

> I claim to have never specifically named anyone on the list as a Scholar.

Whyever not? You're the man who claimed to have identified the breed. And 
reticence is hardly your forte.

> They [Sumerians, not Scholars] also were similar to us at a much MORE
> profound level. Maybe the problem is just that I am talking about a
> level that is more deeply rooted in the human condition...maybe even
> instinctual.

Maybe even meaningless. See below for more. In a different context, you 
asked:

> Then we both think differently. How shall we prove it? 

Well, let's see. I'll post a quotation supporting my beliefs, then you can 
send us one that supports yours. If you can find any. My opening shot comes 
from a fine book called "Reality Isn't What It Used To Be," for which I'm 
greatly indebted to your friend and mine, that constructive clansman Mr. 
Peter Michaels:

: The anthropologists probably deserve much of the credit -- or the blame
: -- for bringing out into clear view the remarkable range of realities
: that exist in a world that, one would have thought, had but a single
: reality. The early anthropologists were the true pioneers of the
: twentieth century, going out in search of culture shock, exposing
: themselves to it in the same valiantly careless way scientists might
: expose themselves to disease. They invented "participant observation,"
: a brilliant addition to the human mind's repertoire of ways to make
: itself uncomfortable. It meant living as closely as possible to the way
: people of primitive cultures lived.
:    The anthropologists squatted in the dust of African villages, hunted
: and feasted on whale blubber with Eskimos, danced in the magical rites
: of Trobriand Islanders. And they returned with information -- not only
: anecdotes and analyses, but art and sculpture and clothing and tools.
: Nothing had ever before matched the accumulation of information about
: different societies that filled the libraries and the museums in Europe
: and America in the decades after World War I.
:    People contemplated this and felt something more serious than a mild
: case of culture shock. Those who really took it in, in all its awesome
: variety, experienced a deep psychological disturbance that has sometimes
: been described as the "vertigo of relativity." They saw overwhelming
: evidence that different peoples had constructed entirely different
: systems of value and belief, knowledge and myth. Inevitably, those who
: absorbed this material revised not only their ideas about exotic peoples,
: but also their ideas about themselves.

-- p.37f. of "Reality Isn't What It Used To Be," by Walter Truett Anderson. 
Ta v. much for the book(s), Peter; and why not tell people your fine and 
worthy ideas about Humakti Hearts one of these days? (You've given us some 
of his other parts already...)

Back to Devin:

> Gee, somewhow I see comparing how Glorantha DIFFERS from Ancient Earth
> as a bit different than saying Glorantha IS just like Earth.

Especially if you cunningly conceal your expert knowledge of Ancient Earth 
behind a convincing facade of superficiality and ignorance.

Saying "Glorantha IS just like Earth" -- does anyone really do this?

Saying it differs: fine, we all agree. It's when you get onto the psycho- 
logical and religious specifics of *how* Glorantha differs from Earth that 
our collective gorges rise. Explain if you will how the Aztecs, Samurai, 
Christian Martyrs, Jews at Masada, Nazis, and today's terrorists in the 
Middle East, Rwanda and Bosnia echo your sensibilities. These are, after 
all, people "profoundly similar" at "an instinctual level" to you and your 
so-called So Cal 'rational' attitudes. 

Please look at this world, before telling me everyone in it is reasonable. 
For a self-proclaimed expert on World War 2 to assume this is so, is odd.

Yours, in deep psychological disturbance,

====
Nick
====

---------------------

From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: [From: Greg Stafford] Re: Machine Gods and Hero Pathes
Message-ID: <9406232120.AA10036@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 23 Jun 94 22:20:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4786

bchugg@leland.stanford.edu (Barron Chugg):

>Hello all,

>  I've been following the recent "What Gods know and what they can do"
>thread with some trepedation.  Almost all of my fundemental RQ knowledge
>comes from the nice, simple RQ2 days, back when God Learners were strange
>and distant.  So many of my ideas were framed from the perspective of
>someone in the world.  Sure, everyone in Sartar knows Orlanth is active in
>the world everyday.  With this idea as a jumping off point it was trivial
>to GM all knowing gods.
>  ...

    Follows a very interesting posting which provoked the 
    following reaction from Greg Stafford:



Yes I did like it. Feel free to forward my comment:

Very Good analysis! The final point to close this might be to remember that
our dissassociation of "internal" with "external" is very modern, and not a
part of the magical realm. The apparant dichotomy of "Personal" and "Cosmic"
is not the same. The Magical Moment, that unTime of Transformation, occurs
when the Microcosm and the Macrocosm are One. In Glorantha, when the
Microcosm (individual) is one with the deity. (And by comparison, a similar
insight can be ganed for us Terrestial humans when our "Self" is one with the
"Universe."

Keep it up. 

- g