From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 25 Jun 1994, part 5
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From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 24 Jun 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <9406242345.AA04635@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 24 Jun 94 11:45:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4816
Devin C.
I like your specialized techniques for contacting the various spirits
of Prax. Thanks for the ideas.
Graeme L.
> I still find the idea of female Western knights far fetched. Note:
>not that there are women who fight, but that there are any chivalric
>orders specifically for them.
My theory is that the sexist Western attitudes force the
chivalric female orders to exist, and that most all female warriors
belong to such orders. But I can be talked out of this. I don't
perceive female knights as a major part of the Western scene, but I
think of them as being common enough to attract only minimal
attention (like seeing a turbaned Sikh in America -- not an everyday
occurrence in most cities, but no cause for alarm either).
Malcolm Cohen:
>one of the attractive things about G back in RQ2 was the ambiguity
>of the struggle between the barbarians and the empire
I find statements like this to be one of the most interesting
insights into the difference between the British and American RPG fan
psyche. In the old RQ2 days, we at Chaosium were accused again and
again by American players of making the Lunars out to be bad guys.
"Why can't we play Lunars?" they'd plaintively ask. It was a huge
culture shock to go to England and learn that many (if not most)
British players did NOT see the Lunars as villainous.
I suspect the pro-Orlanthi slant of modern RQ stuff may be
similarly a fig newton of someone's imagination.
Joerg B.:
While, in general, I agree with Joerg's assertion that
ancient people, as members of different cultures, are dissimilar in
many ways from Our Decadent Modern Age, I'm still going to have to
nitpick some of his statements.
>Who among us is as willing to die for honour as the heroic age
>individuals were?
Examples of cowardice and villainy abound in the heroic age.
Read Thucydides on Alcibiades (an important Athenian ruler during the
Pelopennesian wars, and a complete opportunist). For that matter,
while few western Europeans would commit suicide on a point of honor
(after 15 centuries of belief that suicide is a Crime Against God), I
think we're as willing to die for our beliefs as in the good old
days: most easily demonstrated in wartime. While fighting to the last
man is never common, it DOES happen, even in modern war.
>Our moralty seems obscene to certain ancient cultures, e.g. _not_
>marrying the own siblings, _not_ eating a slain enemies' bodyparts,
>_not_ raping subdued enemies, _not_ sacrificing our firstborn or our
>leaders in times of trouble, _not_ keeping the station we are born
>into, _not_ comitting suicide in the face of dishonour.
Once more, I concur with Joerg's point, but I feel his
examples could have been better chosen: I can't think of a single
culture in which marrying one's siblings was acceptable, save the
Egyptian pharoahs, for whom it was probably a duty and a sign that
they were different from the common masses. Similarly, I can't think
of any ancient societies in which raping subdued enemies was
considered an honorable duty, rather than an act of vengeance, or a
reward (to the raper) for heroic service in battle.
Admittedly, we're getting slack in the old sacrificing of the
firstborn. And our religious leaders hardly ever practice
self-mutilation any more. What's this world coming to.
Incidentally, I do not believe that "the ancients" are different from
us because they lived a long time ago and didn't have Our Marvelous
Science. I think the ancients are different from us because their
cultures were different. I.e., 'tis culture, not technology, that
determines your society, your philosophy, and your ethos.
Nick sensibly points that there are numerous folks from Earth
who somehow fail to "echo our sensibilities" despite being from the
same exact planet. I strongly recommend Edward T. Hall's books on
this subject to every reader of this Digest. "The Hidden Dimension"
and "The Secret Language" are highly readable works that utterly
changed my view of other cultures. Not that I deny that all humans
share certain emotions and experiences, but they sure build
differently on that base.
>Divination is not, and has never been, a tool of inquisition.
My hero. People that use Divination for things like "who stole my
pouch" can really get my goat.
MOB accuses me of having read Alan Bullock's "Hitler and Stalin"
book. Which I am innocent of. Though I've read heaps o' stuff on both
men, that particular book has not yet crossed my doorsill. In keeping
with the (very small) thread accusing the Nazis of inefficiency, I'd
like to point out that in _some_ ways, their system seemed to work.
One author, covering the Nazi "organization" for pillaging occupied
Europe described the various offices, bureaus, and districts involved
as barking and snapping at one another like "a pack of feeding
jackals over a carcass." But he also said that, like the jackals, the
carcass's flesh seemed to disappear very swiftly indeed.
On the other hand, the Nazi weapons procurement policy was a
joke (you'd think someone as military-minded as them would be able to
handle this particular task).
What with Dart Competition and all, it seems clear to me that
the Lunars are just as riddled with dissension, yet seem as
monolithic to outsiders, as the Nazis. I have used this before to
good effect in my campaigns, and plan to do so in the future. The
drill generally takes the form of: anti-lunar PCs face the Might of
the Empire in some small corner of the world, then must eventually
travel to within the dreaded Empire, where they discover, to their
amazement, that the Lunars have many factions, some of which are
_friends_ to the PCs and their goals.
There is a Lunar faction in my campaign whose political goal
is to save the "dying Orlanthi culture". They look on the Orlanthi
much as romantic British looked on the Celts, or romantic Americans
looked on the Noble Redskin, and with about as much realism. Anyway,
these guys make buildings in the Orlanthi style, collect Orlanthi
artwork, have round table discussions about the Orlanthi, write books
(and novels!), and occasionally hire a traveler to the distant wild
lands to tell them of his travails amongst the Orlanthi barbarians.
In the American Civil War, there was an amusing incident in
which a bunch of Ohio Copperheads (anti-Lincoln northerners) claimed
that the Confederacy was in the right, wrote pompous newspaper
editorials praising Jeff Davis and condemning the "Black
Republicans', and even founded secret societies with horrendous oaths
of blood and vengeance against the treacherous national govt. Some
actual Rebels heard about these potential allies, and soon the Ohio
Copperheads were contacted by living, breathing Confederate agents.
The Copperheads, thrilled by this, naturally offered their services
to the Rebels, and asked how they could help out. To their horror,
the Rebels had very specific suggestions: blow up the railway
bridges; get your guns and form a guerrilla force to hold down Union
troops; rob a bank and ship the gold south. You get the idea. The
hapless Copperheads hemmed and hawed and in the end did absolutely
nothing, terrified by the thought of such direct action. They'd
expected the rebels to praise them, urge them to "resist" the draft,
write more editorials, etc. The rebels went home thoroughly disgusted
and disappointed, and for the rest of the war didn't rely on
Copperheads for anything but hot air.
I plan to organize something like this for my own PCs.
Alex: had to mention that your postings in the daily for Friday made
me laugh and laugh. You were in high form. Lines like "Worshippers
aren't going to go moaning "And he buggered off about 67BT, without
a word. <*snerf*>", are they?" are what keep me reading the Daily.
Alex goes on to say:
>"Storm" is a proper, *manly* Element that I'd be proud to run &
>shout for. So, IMHO, "Air" is the New Pelorian word for "Storm".
>Similarly, the alleged misprints in "Cults of Terror" - with
>Disorder Runes replacing Chaos Runes everywhere - are another subtle
>attempt to influence public opinion in favour of the Chaos Gods.
Let us not forget the Fire/Sky Rune either. For that matter,
I'd be proud to place the various spellings of L(h)ank(h)or Mhy as a
debased plot to make the Wise God's minions look like idiots who
can't even spell their own cult's name consistently. Karrg/Kaarg,
too. And how about Urox? Huh? Don't sound as keen as "Storm Bull", do
it? Note how easy it is to spell Red Goddess, by the way. No
coincidence, sez me.
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: RuneMagic
Message-ID: <9406242258.AA03467@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 24 Jun 94 22:58:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4817
Alex replies to me (after I replied to Sandy about DI in enemy temples):
>Rune magic appears to work in wrongly-sanctified areas, for some weird reason.
I think it's because the priest is doing the Rune Magic, not the god. He
may have gotten it from his Goddess, but She isn't doing it. Difference
between selling someone a gun and committing murder.
Note, I do think the power comes from the priest's Otherworld presence,
which is in the realm of his God. Writeup I made for Greg:
Oops, that seems to be a Lost File. Maybe Nick has a copy, it has a toe
cut off and thrown into a pond... Nick?
Alex writes:
>we already know the RE is selected by a process
>of HeroQuesting/backstabbing/selection/politicking
I'm not sure "we" know that the ever-reincarnating Red Emperor, whose
appearance never changes and who is said to descend again from the Moon if
his body is killed, is selected this way. In fact we've seen references
that differ. Reference on this? Or does "We know" mean "around here we think"?
Sandy writes:
>>>
Well, while I, and others, are "quoting Greg to stymie Sandy", note that
in The Sword Story (KoS), it _is_ Eurmal and Grandfather Mortal who manage
this trick entirely by themselves, with liberal helpings of collective
stupidity. A somewhat earlier answer to my question, if I'd bothered
<<<
Um. I've seen this story soomewhere else too, and it seems consistent
to me. Humakt IS the sword. He kills Grandfather Mortal. In another
story Eurmal USES Humakt to kill Grandfather Mortal. Fine by me - as
long as we know Humakt IS the Sword as well as the Warrior. (BTW this
is important in Carmania - more on that later.)
Nick writes:
>Ah, *that's* the difference in our workings methods. I take the cultures I
>*like*, and give them reprehensible customs and attitudes...
I do, also. Ogres, Carmanians, etc...
Agree with Nick about Air and Storm. This is implicit if not explicit
in existing material. Air Lords and Voices? I think not.
About gods and curses (inspired by Cha. Arroy curse of ???? fame):
In our campaign the Uleria cult is important, a new temple is going
up in the main area. Uleria priestesses are pretty inviolate: no one
wants to risk the Curse of Uleria. (Floppity-floppity, as it is called
by some.) Of course the Dara Happans can get some celibate or eunuch to do
the dirty work when they want to drive out a priestess...
On Loskalm:
I also play that its wonderfulness goes with its isolation. They ARE good
to their own. However, in our Junoran campaign, they seemed like meddling
outsiders.
- Paul
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Artillery
Message-ID: <940625001049_100270.337_BHL20-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 25 Jun 94 00:10:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4818
______
Sandy:
> Not that Glorantha has artillery fire
The Lunar College of Magic's spirit magicians (from WB&RM) could be seen as
working like WWI artillery barrages: they're the first thing that hits the
enemy line (OK, there's Chaos and Physical magicians, too, but...), they
presumably make a fair amount of weird sounds and red light, and they leave
enemy troopers "shell-shocked" and gibbering in their ranks...
While if the Crater Makers and Cannon Cult aren't artillery, what is?
Your piece on the Third Age break-up of the Jrusteli Monomyth was
fascinating. Thanks a million!
> I'd like to suggest that both Nick and Devin consider cooling off for
> a day or two.
Advice taken.
_____________
Malcom Cohen:
> Indeed, one of the attractive things about G back in RQ2 was the
> ambiguity of the struggle between the barbarians and the empire; I
> think it is a shame that the barbarians now all wear white hats and
> the empire black.
Urk! More people say the reverse, these days. Is it "King of Sartar," with
its understandable pro-Orlanthi slant, or RQ3's tendency to treat everyone
more reasonably (as potential good guys), that you're objecting to?
In case it makes a difference, I *love* the Lunar Empire. They only wear
black hats half of the time, when their Cyclical ways require it. I don't
believe taking a philosophical attitude to language makes them "evil", any
more than Political Correctness would.
_____
Alex:
> Clearly, but they don't say "Yelm rises, time starts" at _any_ point
> (other than 0YS).
You mean, they *never* say "Time starts," while they *only* say "Yelm
rises" at 0 YS and 111,221 YS. (From memory, so sue me).
> But given that Arkat has previously managed to appear as several people,
> and given that (at least) four of them are (going to be) probably lying,
> this is not the stuff of great inconsistency.
Only four out of five lying? Who was Arkat ever honest with??
____
MOB:
> One of my most vivid memories of RQ Con was Nick B's (somewhat drunken,
> slurred) recitation of Chris Gidlow's "Seleric Verses" featuring the Red
> Goddess in her mortal guise.
Only "somewhat" drunken? That must have been the first night...
Chris says he should have Danfive's chapter written up for Convulsion, and
promises public recitations. We live in hope...
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: WALLMAN@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU (Close friend of Little Elvis)
Subject: paths of the gods, up and down
Message-ID: <01HDXOEQ9VAQ004EJM@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU>
Date: 24 Jun 94 16:39:20 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4819
Colin Watson:
> My only quibble is: why does one *have* to follow an existing path?
> I propose that fresh paths can be forged and, if these new paths are
> subsequently well-trodden enough (by a cult-load of worshippers all doing
> the same magic in the same way) and the route is complex enough then eventually
> a "new god" may form.
> Did this not happen with Zistor the Machine and the Red Goddess?
> Once the god-track is established then the magic becomes easier; but the
> downside is that it becomes vulnerable to other gods (cults).
> Hmm, the idea of gods forming around cults rather than cults forming around
> gods is interesting...
Yes, but note the two examples you give both ended in disaster.
It does appear that paths of worship and heroquesting can be derailed or
even forged anew (e.g. Gold Wheel Dancers, Arkat, God Learners). However,
it only seems possible with a superhuman effort. Joe Schmoe who wanders in
his religion is visited by nasty spirits. Joe Hero who wanders in his
religion becomes a subcult. Joe Schmoe who wanders off the heroquest path
gets devoured by Krarsht. Joe Hero who wanders off the heroquest path
becomes a star in the heavens.
Here is an idea. Instead of a single heroic individual forging a new path,
what if many many unheroic people kept throwing themselves at it. Sure,
most would be snuffed out, but eventually the path would be trodden enough.
This sounds so familiar as I write it, I think it must have happened in
some form in Gloranthan history.
---
This reminds me of something I do not think has been mentioned when discussing
the Great Compromise. It is usually described as something locking the gods
outside Glorantha. To me it is better described as something locking
everything inside Glorantha.
The gods do not have it so rough. At first I pitied them for being locked
in their timeless stasis. However, after examining the evidence, I think
Gloranthans have it much worse off. Every time humanity (or anyone else)
even begins to reach up towards the divine, they are brutally crushed.
Every age has been a repetition of this theme.
It all seems too convenient for the gods. "Oh, sorry, I can't really get
involved because of this darn Compromise. What? Someone is getting
powerful like me? I guess the universe will just have to turn against
them and obliterate them. That's what they get for disturbing the
natural order of things."
I think it should be called the Great Conspiracy.
Ed Is it a Dorastor disaster
Wallman@vax2.winona.msus.edu or a disaster in Dorastor?
---------------------
From: MARTINCRIM@delphi.com
Subject: Duck Yelmalians: Qua! Qua!
Message-ID: <01HDXQZ3K4QQ93CQUK@delphi.com>
Date: 24 Jun 94 18:51:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4820
Re: Mistress Clam
I thought that was Molakka. Or are you a Spinal Tap
devotee, Devin? :-)
Forgive me if I pop your balloon, but the Praxian spirit
cults exist in unpublished format.
Re: dying for honor
Joerg, is there a better reason?
Re: location of Zoria
Joerg is right about the Fronelan Zoria, but the Uleria
write-up from Different Worlds says that there are four cities by
that name. Home of the Zorian bikini team.
Re: historical development of atheism
According to _Without God, Without Creed_, Spinoza (1632-
1677) was the first atheist. (This is from memory, so go check
it if you care.) Before that, it was unthinkable. That's just
one example, of course, of historical change in mental states.
Atheism in the U.S. wasn't a popular issue until the time of the
War of Northern Aggression. (Hence the "argument from the
existence of General Lee.") Since that time, theists have had to
contend with the fact that there are some people who believe in
NO deities.
Re: accurate depictions of the American judiciary
I hadn't noticed MOB's observation so much, although I did
read that "A Few Good Men" changed the judge's race between the
book and the movie, and there is one TV commercial with a black
female judge that strikes me as PC. One time in my personal
experience, though, I looked around the courtroom and saw that I
was the only man in the courtroom (with a black woman on the
bench, BTW): I knew then how the women and minorities in our bar
must feel.
Just for comparison's sake, 1 of 13 judges in my circuit is
black, and 2 are women; at least one of the six or so federal
judges in this district is black (dunno the number of women off
the top of my head); the two Virginia appellate courts have 2
blacks and 3 women (with no overlap) out of 16; I couldn't tell
you the makeup of the federal appellate court; and of course
there is one black on the Supreme Court (described by the late
Justice Thurgood Marshall as "the wrong negro"). Oddly enough,
there is talk about a "Jewish seat" on the Supreme Court,
currently held by one of the two women there. Virginia is about
30% minority, mostly African-American (don't skewer me if I have
the figure wrong, folks, it's not like I carry these figures
around in my head).
What's this got to do with Glorantha? Well, I could launch
into my diatribe about Lunars' arbitrary search and seizure, or
their practice of quartering soldiers in private homes, or ...
not.
Re: Joe Lannom's GDTV
LOL.
Re: Alex's Furious(ly) Fighting Factions of KoW
Oh, you think they KILLED the trolls, do you?
The Lead Cross HQ is mentioned in _Plunder_. It's a Humakti
path where you kill healers to show your devotion to death (after
all, they resurrect people--why, that's practically the same as
creating undead!). You get a nifty magic item that kills undead
dead.
Re: Safelstran as a Theyalan or Western language
G:G,CotHW, Bk 1, pg 35, under the "Western" heading:
"Ralian: spoken by the people of the many petty kingdoms of the
Safelster region in Ralios." Elsewhere it's mentioned as
"Safelstran."
Re: Excommunication Quick Draw
A/k/a Surgical First Strike.
Re: Time, causality, and philosophical dreck like that
But how did causality come into existence?
Re: Several suns
Yeah, but the point I was trying to make is this: was Yelm
originally the sun to Orlanthi, or was he the Emperor? Cf. Paul
Reilly's Fronelan Orlanthi, coming soon in Codex #2, who greatly
discount Yelm's sun aspect in favor of his Emperor aspect.
Anyway, it's kind of peripheral to what I was doing in that
piece.
>If there is a "native"
>elven winter sun cult, it may not be much like Yelmalio at all.
Um, yeah. The cult's not. But it's the same god, everybody
says so.
Re: Pol Joni Orlanthi
There are at least two references more recent than CoP that
say the tribe worships Orlanthi gods. And that serious a
transformation for a Praxian animal rider nomad would almost have
to entail a change of cult, wudnit? Compare the other Praxian
outlaw groups: Amazons (Yelorna), Gagarthi, and Cannibal Cult.
Re: Yelmalio qua Yelmalio
Are you using qua qua qua, or "qua" qua "qua"? [With
apologies to Eyebeam. [About three people on this daily will get
this reference]]
Re: Sikhs and Quakers
The original story as told to me involved a Baptist
complaining about the noise from the Sikh service in the
basement, and the Sikh's rejoinder (with the Baptist being taken
aback). I said Quakers, not Baptists, to heighten the difference
(although there might be more distance from the Baptists than
from the Quakers...). Not everybody may believe this. There are
bigger gaps, which raise bigger questions, but in sensitivity to
the readers (and contributors) to this fine daily, I omitted
mentioning them.
Of course, the unforgivable sin is Taking Things Too
Seriously, something I avoid religiously.
--Martin
---------------------
From: ANDOVER@delphi.com
Subject: Dying for Honor
Message-ID: <01HDXQRDLS0I921MZQ@delphi.com>
Date: 24 Jun 94 18:50:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4821
Joerg writes "Who among us is willing to die for honor as the heroic
age individuals were?" If by "us" he means the people on this list,
I HOPE the answer is "darn few!" But if by us, he means people in our
world, I would point to large proportions of the minority youth in my
own city of New York, who frequently kill or are killed because they
have been "dissed" (disrespected). Indeed, when we think of the
behavior patterns of many of our adventurer characters, given their
likely levels of literacy and behavior patterns, they are far closer
to the inhabitants of urban slums than they are to the generally
upper-middle-class intellectual personalities of the people on this
list! So when you are playing an 18-year-old warrior, don't play
him as a capitalist minimaxer, play him as a slum kid!
Jim Chapin