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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 27 Jun 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: Wizards, Priests, and Shamans; Toe-CUtting
Message-ID: <9406262057.AA27909@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 26 Jun 94 20:57:20 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4836
I think that there is an underlying commonality in the Gloranthan magic
systems. To me this gives a world-flavor to Glorantha. I wrote something
up on this a couple of months back, I planned to do an improved version for
general release but have not gotten to it yet, so I am releasing the
rambling, unimproved version that was meant to be personal correspondence.
If it is well liked I may invest the time in improving it. Thanks.
(I already know some people will hate it.) This was a personal letter to
Nick and Greg, hence the personal references.
Thanks for your indulgence...
Note: I will be posting more on this subject if I am not flamed for
length or content. Some things may be confusing. It might help to point
out that I think that the major Gloranthan professionals all do their
higher magic through extending a portion of themselves into the Otherworld.
The "primitive" form of this is shamanism. Priests and wizards operate
differently but there is a deeply hidden underlying similarity, unknown
to most Gloranthans. A typical Wizard would make a special magical tool,
say for example a Staff, that would help him with his magic. He would NOT
think of this as being like a Fetch. The shaman would not either; the
Staff is dead and the Fetch is living. There is a difference between a
horse and a catapult made from its bones and sinews.
The Saint stuff is almost all or all about Wizard-Saints, others may be
different.
----- Begin Included Message -----
Nick, Greg:
Last night I had some Western culture conversations with Mike Holliday.
This relates to both mythos and to How the West was One (indirectly).
We are trying to figure out how Western culture works.
Greg, if this is too long but you are interested, I cn send hardcopy.
I didn't realize how long it would be before I started typing.
A very common phenomenon in magic is the person projecting a bit of
herself through into the Otherworld. This piece, some call the "Twin"
or "Other Self". Other names about. Some call it an organ. People
whose Third Eye is open have entered the Otherworld a bit. Trolls who
have a Spirit Stomach can "eat" and incorporate spirits.
OK, the phenomenon is widespread. Shamanic, theistic, and Western
cultures all have this. I am not sure about the Easterners; instead of
entering the Otherworld they may just gradually realize the unity of
things - this world may _be_ their Otherworld. Not sure, leave them
out for now.
So, who are the people with a presence on the Other Side?
Shamans for one, obviously. Shamanism is, I think, the primitive or natural
form of this phenomenon. "Primitive" in the sense of first (prime), not
unsophisticated.
Sorcerers - here I mean "full" sorcerers.
Initiates. (not just Priests)
If you have an alive an conscious presence in the Otherworld, you have
to face the demons that live there. And master them or be mastered by
them. Jung might call this an upwelling of the Unconscious, others call
it the fight with the Bad Man.
Shamans have to face their inner demons/Bad Man and become their people's
contact with the Otherworld. They can survive the trial because of preparation
and "healthy" living - they are spiritually strong and their whole people/
way of life support them.
Initiates just poke through a little piece of themselves. This piece
is dedicated to a deity, a great spirit who absorbs that piece into their
own sphere. In external terms, the god faces down the Bad Man. In internal
terms, the person has the support of their society/culture/way of life.
They don't have to decide what is right and wrong - they don't face the
trials of the shaman - because they give those choices over to the collective.
Their god protects them - or, to say it another way, the society of initiates
(of that god or tribe) all stand together. Rather than dealing with their
"demons" one on one, they meld into a group that faces these trials together.
Note that the "demons" may also meld together into Bad Gods that the culture
as a whole must face together. On earth, this faceoff is symbolic, or is
in the realm of the mind, but on Glorantha it can have direct physical
consequences. They externalize the Bad Man to be external to the
_collective_ body of initiates. All the initiates together feed their
god, who protects them. Another way to look at it is to say that they
meld their Other Side presence into their God.
In this model spirits of reprisal are not so much a punishment from
the God as a natural phenomenon. Initiates have a presence on the Other
Side. This attracts the bad spirits. The God protects them, as long as
they stay in the sphere of the God. When they leave that sphere, by
breaking the rules that bind them into the collective, they are on their
own and must face their cultural version of the Bad Man. They can repent,
and return to the fold of their God (in some cases). Or they can withdraw
from the Other Side - the spirit of reprisal "takes" their Rune Magic,
a manisfestation of their presence on the Other Side. Or, they can
face off the spirit of reprisal. Usually they lose and bad things happen
to them. Sometimes they win and enter an uncharted hero path (rarely).
The sorcerer has a different mechanism. Western culture is analytical
and individualist rather than synthetic and collectivist (like the theistic
cultures). They do not meld their other sides together into a God; they
would fear the loss of individuality if they even thought this possible.
Rather, they go even further in the other direction - instead of merging
into a greater whole, they cut off their Other Side presence and say:
That thing is not ME - it is something else. (A Presence, sometimes bound
into an object as a further symbol of separation) The Bad Man comes, looks
at the sorcerer and laughs: he need not do anything, the sorcerer has crippled
himself. The Bad Man is the guardian of the Well of Wisdom that shamans
must pass before they would drink; the sorcerer sews his lips shut...
Greg, don't object yet, there is more to the story.
Another thing to look at is the legend of the witch's familiar. A common
theme is that the Witch takes some part of herself, blood or a severed
toe or something, and grows it into a familiar. While this may not be
literally true for sorcerers, they do the spiritual equivalent - sever a
piece of themselves.
The shaman's presence on the other side is alive and whole. He is alive
on both sides at once. He can be in the lodge telling his tribe of his
journey in the Otherworld even as he is accomplishing it; he has a full
dual existence.
The initiate has a dual existence as well, but it is not very well developed.
Her presence on the Other Side is not free to roam; it is not safe to do so.
Only the paths of her Goddess may safely be trodden. If she wanders outside
the established mythic territory she is no longer protected by her Goddess,
or by the collective power of her culture (cult); instead she will be
assailed. She is awake but limited to the realms of her own expectations,
will not meet the _surprises_ that a shaman does, except for surprises that
are arranged by her culture/Goddess (ie deeper levels of Initiation).
[Initiation has profound effects, will discuss another time]
The sorcerer binds up his presence on the other side. He is not assailed
or distracted like the shaman. Of course he sees this as having full
conscious control of his powers, which do what he tells them to, while
the shaman and priestess live in worlds of delusion, madness, and demons.
He does not conquer his inner demons, he _avoids confronting them_. This
much is clear to me from the culture writeup in PB: Genertela.
The shaman jumps into the pool of water.
The priestess cautious sticks her toe in, with a lifeguard handy.
The sorcerer cuts off his toe and throws it in the pool - "That's not me,
it's something else that I can reach into the Otherworld with"
But things that were once part of you are always part of you, in a magical
world. Wizards tie themselves up, substituting artificial restrictions
for true self control and self knowledge. They bind and mutilate their
spirits (souls) in order to achieve the control necessary to work magic.
(always looking at this from shamanic POV here; the Wizards call it training
and superior morality - contrast Wizard description of pagan licentiousness)
They thus dodge out of their fight with the Bad Man. They don't face their
inner demons, they deny them instead.
HOWEVER
sometimes the knot comes untied and those demons get loose. This can
happen in more than one way, but (Mike came up with this but I am sure he is
right) Illumination is one such way. This wakes up your fetch. Remember
what I said about a Saint's staff coming to life? Once the fetch/vested POW/
Otherworld Presence is awake, you must face your inner demons after all. You
get your fight with the Bad Man. Given the context of Western culture,
this is seen as demons coming to torment and tempt you. Many fall - they
are "possessed" and/or go "insane" upon being freed of their restrictions.
Not having the preparation of shamans, most wizards who "wake up" will
lost to the Bad Man and become unmoored from their social matrix, and self
serving. "Hahaha, I am Possessed now. I can indulge in all my darkest
forbidden desires and it's NOT MY FAULT because I am possessed of these
demons, whom I can't resist anyway."
Occassionally someone will win. He becomes a _FREE_ individual, without
his culture restrictions or geasa - he may act as he chooses. I think
that this is a Saint. A Saint has a _living_ presence on the other side.
He can bring back the sacred fire like a shaman returning from a visionquest
and become a guide to his people. He is _aware_ and _alive_ not half-asleep
or half-dead, like most Westerners. He _sees_ the spiritual side of life.
He can thus be the _shepherd_, guiding the sheep and those who are too
blind to see. A Saint can _open_the_eyes_ of another, but that person
must have his own personal fight with the Bad Man, in which the Saint can
guide but cannot help. His magic will also become _alive_ instead of
half-dead like it was before. The Saint can perform unprecedented magical
feats (miracles?) because he is _aware_ on the Other Side; he is no longer
following the "cookbook" needed by people who have no sense of taste.
I think Saints can develop _naturally_ if a person is spiritually
ready. People can achieve Enlightenment on their own (like Xemela)
if it is their Time. Illumination can release the _knot_ before you
are ready. Thus it is seen as evil in the West.
This picture helps a lot. I would be interested in your reactions. It
explains why Illumination led to such trouble in the West (but not in the
East). Also fits in with "immunity to spirits of reprisal".
Also fits in with the Red Goddess and her special Magic and her paths.
Also fits in with Arkat _the_Liberator_ and what he does.
I hope this is not too long,
Paul
ps if I am wrong let me down gently, this had the "force of revelation" for
me.
pps I hope I succeeded in explaining what I meant, repeated sometimes to
try different ways of getting it across.
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Mr. Man, and other wonderfulness
Message-ID: <940625094635_100270.337_BHL32-2@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 25 Jun 94 09:46:36 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4825
______
Sandy:
I was absolutely gobsmacked by Mr.Man: a completely marvellous piece!
Reading it, I could hear his thin, reedy voice (I imagine) coming through
loud and clear. This is a *wonderful* introduction to the South.
______
Devin:
> Hmmm, how do you determine this...that is, what was dropped in RQ3 but
> not from Glorantha?
KoS p.68: "For seven days the soul lingers near the body." Mind you, for
rules purposes I'd say that this indication of time is about as meaningful
as "forty days and forty nights" or "three score years and ten" would be.
_______
Cullen:
> I'm more concerned with how they treat foreigners (esp women)... Can
> Orlanthi even go there, or would they be persecuted? If not, it isn't
> much use unless you start out there, or for 'strangers' like Arlaten.
I suggested a month or so back that the Rokari (and other Malkioni) are far
more worried by heretics than they are by pagans. Heresy corrupts the Holy
Church, while pagans haven't been a threat to it for centuries. I'd imagine
Orlanthi mercenaries are regularly hired in Safelster (the "What the Wizard
Says" line on how unreliable Storm folks are must refer to something like
this, IMHO), and that foreigners from further afield would perhaps be even
more welcome (after all, they don't have their relatives waiting in the
wings if their power waxes great enough). Like the Varangian Guards.
I'm also unconvinced by SiP's dogmatism. I think Arlaten's sexist views are
extreme even for a Rokari. Any comments, Mike?
Oh: if the name "Saint Michelle" is too much to swallow, you could do the
normal Chaosium thing and corrupt it to, say "Saint Myshella" or something
similar (wasn't there a Moorcockian sorceress by that name?).
Like "Marc LeMain" (that's "Makla Mann", to the likes of us).
No disrespect to Michelle, of course. Gloranthified names tend to shift.
________
David D:
> Lhankor Mhy must be able to see something of the future, otherwise how
> could his seers identify horrible fates and wisely impose geases on
> newborn nobles?
My opinion: it's easy, using Cyclical Time.
If a squalling brat's grandfather was drowned in the High Tarn on Waterday
in Sea Season, I'd lay a geas so that he'll avoid that place at that time.
The spirit of the pool must have it in for him and his family - and if it's
done something once, it'd be easier to do it next time.
So Lhankor Mhy's skill at record-keeping (oral family tradition, in this
case) is crucial to his geas-imposing abilities.
Other geasa dealing with relations with totem animals etc. will stretch way
back to pre-Orlanthi Hsunchen times, perhaps. Again, it's the Lhankor Mhy
sage who remembers why it is that the clan has these attachments. And who
understands and interprets the name of the child. ("Your name is 'Rolf',
meaning 'Dog', so I lay upon you this obligation: that you never eat the
meat of a dog, for dogs are your brothers.")
Some of it is like augury: if the clan once assembled for battle, and three
ravens flew across the field from left to right, and we lost, future chief-
tains would be obliged to shun battle on a day... (etc.)
To an animist world-view, whatever spirit or force moved the ravens on that
long-gone day is still around, and it only makes sense for us to interrupt
the patterns that it's trying to set up, by striving to avoid repetition of
disastrous circumstances.
But this is a job for Mr. Memory, not the Amazing Zelda and her Fortune-
Telling Crystal Ball. You can't see the future in Glorantha, but you can
influence or ask the gods and people who shape it. Zzabur's "Map of the
Future" is, in this sense, as reliable as Hitler's "Map of the Greater
German Reich" -- a blueprint for his intentions, not a freak wormhole in
the space-time continuum.
_______
Harald:
I loved "Khalana and Orlantio", like all your earlier myths and legends.
More, please!
______
Nazis:
[no, not Loskalm!]
When I studied modern history, years and years ago now, they said the
structure of Nazi government embodied something called "institutional
Darwinism" - you set up a whole bunch of organisations doing the same kind
of thing, and hope they'll compete each other into being more efficient.
Perhaps this is part of the secret of the KOW?
_____
Paul:
> Oops, that seems to be a Lost File. Maybe Nick has a copy, it has a
> toe cut off and thrown into a pond... Nick?
Honest, he's making perfect sense. I'll fish it out...
___
Ed:
> Instead of a single heroic individual forging a new path, what if many
> many unheroic people kept throwing themselves at it. Sure, most would
> be snuffed out, but eventually the path would be trodden enough. This
> sounds so familiar as I write it, I think it must have happened in some
> form in Gloranthan history.
It may help explain how the trolls are trying to end the Curse of Kin: all
of the previous "failed" attempts erode the problem, inch by inch.
_______
Graeme:
> The main thrust of the argument was refuting the ridiculous notions of
> the Red Empire being opposed to the Storm Gods, obviously...
"Opposed? Of course we're not opposed! They stand for Rebellion, we stand
for Perpetual Revolution -- it's just a more modern, philosophical way of
expressing the same idea. If we were so different from them, how could we
ever have come to replace them in the Middle Heavens?"
______
Kevin:
> Caused no end of problems for a Carmainian Humakti sword wantabe in
> Pavis who was also an Adept. Had to be real careful with the sorcery
> to prevent his superiors from finding out. . .
And this in a *Truth* Rune cult? I suppose he could say he'd sworn a lot of
Silence vows, or that he thought telling his Sword so late in the day would
be like an Ambush... but it still feels odd to me.
How'd he ever get the time to be both?
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Chuggian paths
Message-ID: <9406251638.AA01858@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 25 Jun 94 17:38:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4826
____________
Barron Chugg:
>>Once the god-track is established then the magic becomes easier; but the
>>downside is that it becomes vulnerable to other gods (cults).
>
>I really like the comment about "becoming vulnerable".
>There is a very important bit on knowledge there, but I can't
>for the life of me extreact it (HELP!).
Ok, this is the idea: Established worship through cults has great strength
but also certain weaknesses.
The strength is that the magic becomes easier. The tracks are so well-worn
and easy to follow (when you know where to start) that a worshipper is almost
certain to get the desired outcome. (Hence Divine Magic has a damn good chance
of success.) If you like: the God helps you cast the spell.
In Game Terms:
Sacrificing POW allows you to find the start of a spell-path. Initiates
can walk this path once (one-use magic); to find the start again they must
sacrifice again. Priests are sufficiently "at one" with their god that
they can always find the start of a path which they have walked; hence their
magic is reusable (except for those tricky one-use spells:-).
However, the rigid, formulaic structure of the god-track renders it vulnerable
to interference. If the god is fully established (the myths surrounding him
are declared as doctrine by the cult; the god-track is locked in place; cult
rituals are performed the same way by many people) then this makes the god
open to attack by other gods. That is, Heroes from other cults can start
messing around with the paths established for your god and thereby indirectly
harm your cult. They work their godess into your myths and make her "win"
against your god; they hijack part of your god-track; they steal magic from
your cult.
Pretty soon you have to start fighting back with Heroes of your own.
Pre-Compromise the Gods were being established. Post-Compromise they are
all pretty-much mapped out.
This isn't to say that one can look at a street-plan of the godplane and
circle a section saying "this is Chalana Arroy; next to her here is
Ernalda; Orlanth is up here... etc". There is some overlap; the gods share
certain paths; their cults share certain magic. Also the boundaries around
the gods are somewhat fuzzy - different groups worship them in slightly
different ways. The GodLearners tried to sharpen-up these edges with their
Monomyth.
It seems that Gods are less vulnerable while they are being established. This
is because their god-track is in a state of flux; the myths surrounding them
vary enormously; hence they are less vulnerable to assault by HeroQuesters.
It's hard to take a shot when the goalposts are moving.
This is why it was so important to the Orlanthi when Zistor, the Red Goddess
et al "became a god". It meant the Orlanthi Heroes could make their move on
the godplane with some hope of success. ie. It meant Orlanth could attack.
Oops, I'm out of time.
___
CW.