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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 28 Jun 1994, part 6
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From: jonas.schiott@vinga.hum.gu.se (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: Dunno yet...
Message-ID: <9406271434.AA09221@vinga.hum.gu.se>
Date: 27 Jun 94 16:40:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4853
Catching up on a few days' worth of dailies - I think I'll just comment on
things in the order I find them...
___
Colin in X-RQ-ID: 4775
>Orlanth reacts to rituals reflexively. Those who realise this and act
>accordingly are, de facto, Illuminated.
>The only reason non-illuminates can't do what illuminates do is because they
>don't think it will work.
I'm with you so far, with the proviso that "thinking it will work" is state
of mind that's pretty hard to achieve.
>I'm sure Priests use Illumination as an excuse to explain lapses in the
>functionality of their deity, all the time. And their flock believes it too.
I'm not so sure about this. How common _is_ knowledge about Nysalor and
Riddlers? I can see a case for the priesthood wanting to cover it up. We
usually play that ordinary people (including beginning adventurers) are
unaware of the finer distinctions between various enemy/foreign cults; they
couldn't tell Thanatar from Krarsht in a line-up, it's all just Chaos.
___
Alex in X-RQ-ID: 4778
>Safelstran isn't a Theyalan language? I dunno for sure, but I supposed
>that it was, since the sub-dialects of Ralian Theyalan aren't listed, while
>the Western languages are, and Safelstran doesn't figure.
The Glorantha Book implies that people in Safelster speak Ralian, a Western
tongue (if they didn't, who in Ralios would?), while according to the
Genertela Book they speak Safelstran. I've discussed this with David, and
we've agreed that Safelstran must be correct, and it's probably Western.
Why not Ralian? As far as I know, no other language is named after a larger
geographical region than the one where it's actually spoken.
___
Nick in X-RQ-ID: 4785, quoting a book
>: People contemplated this and felt something more serious than a mild
>: case of culture shock. Those who really took it in, in all its awesome
>: variety, experienced a deep psychological disturbance that has sometimes
>: been described as the "vertigo of relativity."
Yeah, but this is a description of the situation in the mid-20th century,
isn't it? Academics today are much more jaded about relativism.
Nick himself says
>Please look at this world, before telling me everyone in it is reasonable.
Well, I'm certainly no friend of "radical interpretation" or whatever that
old phrase was, but I think Devin's point was that no matter how much you
ascribe different beliefs to other cultures, you are still assuming that
you know what it means to _hold_a_belief_, and that this psychological
mechanism remains the same throughout the ages. Which may very well be
true, who knows? It's at any rate not _a_priori_ ridiculous as a
methodological assumption.
___
"ANDOVER@delphi.com" in X-RQ-ID: 4792
>I AM a scholar but have largely kept my mouth shut on all the scholarly
>debates about history (yes I am an historian).
Kinda like me, except I'm a lot worse at keeping my huge mouth shut.:-)
>an article by Richard Kieckhefer titled "The Specific Rationality of
>Modern Magic."
Seems like it's about "natural magick" and the "Hermetic tradition"? If so,
one could argue that Glorantha is much more about _ancient_ magic than
medieval, especially if one takes Greg's mysticistic gobbledigook seriously
:-).
___
Barron in X-RQ-ID: 4796
>I'm more than willing to accept the term "Runequest"
>for the "everyday" HQing I am talking about.
Very gratifying.:-) I think the reason a lot of people prefer to talk about
_hero_questing is the 'paradigmatic shift' away from Runes. My thoughts on
this are still a bit unclear, but if we accept this gregging "runequesting"
can't be a general Gloranthan term, it would be confined to those areas
where rune cults are worshipped. But on the other hand, do all Gloranthan
cultures speak of "heroquesting"?
>Funny, when I first read the idea of guilt inspired SoRs I didn't like it
>much (didn't fit my RQ2 ideals, I guess). But when I started thinking
>about the RuneQuest idea (as it is now known) it fit beautifully. So,
>thanks for bringing it up/creating it.
Credit where credit is due: it was first suggested by Dag Olausson, to Sten
Ahrman and myself. It struck us with the immediate clarity of obvious
truth...
>Can belief create reality in Glorantha?
Yes: Illusion.
___
Harald in X-RQ-ID: 4812, on Barron's stuff
>Curiously, this approach reminds me of the RQII schema where people set
>out to walk in the path of the gods to achieve runes. When you had
>achieved them you were like your god.
Good to see I'm not the only one - what's happened to everyone else's
memories? Has there been a (gasp) Minarian Memory Removal on the net? :-)
___
Nuff said.
( Jonas Schiott )
( Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria )
( Goteborgs Universitet )
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Rokari vs pagans and heretics
Message-ID:
Date: 27 Jun 94 15:20:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4854
Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 4825
> Cullen:
>> I'm more concerned with how they treat foreigners (esp women)... Can
>> Orlanthi even go there, or would they be persecuted? If not, it isn't
>> much use unless you start out there, or for 'strangers' like Arlaten.
> I suggested a month or so back that the Rokari (and other Malkioni) are far
> more worried by heretics than they are by pagans. Heresy corrupts the Holy
> Church, while pagans haven't been a threat to it for centuries.
I think it depends on where and how you meet the Rokari.
Nolosian sailors and traders will encounter non-Rokari and non-Malkioni
on a regular basis, and the need to tolerate the Cult of Dormal. (Do they
view it as a Saint cult?)
Their trade partners will be mainly heretics and pagans. While I don't
know what deities are worshipped in Handra (Marc Willner, could you
enlighten us?), along the Manirian coast the traders will find Issarian
Trader Princes as the keepers of the markets, and in the Holy Country
their markets will be used by theist Issaries and Etyries traders as
well. To the west and north they'll find Brithini (are these counted as
heretics?) and Hrestoli of different facon - Castle Coasters and
Loskalmi.
To make things worse, Brown Vadeli traders are omnipresent in the ports.
Yet worse, these people send traders into the ports of Nolos and Pasos.
Given the mercantylist orientation of the Duke of Nolos, I think that
for a Rokari society Nolos is fairly cosmopolitan. This could be one
reason the Duke and the King are bound to clash sooner or later.
What religion do the black knights of Pithdaros follow?
Western Tanisor is a different matter. Here the only non-Rokari threat
comes from the (luckily) impenetrable elf-forests inhabited by Aldryami
and beastmen. Luckily because they shield off detrimental Castle Coast
doctrine. I'd expect almost Sedalpist tendencies here. Human pagans would
likely be left alone.
Northern Tanisor gets it worst. To the west, there is contact with
the castle coasters, to the north, it is avoided with the Brithini
of Arolanit, to the east, dangerous Stygians from Safelster and inhuman
inhabitants from Guhan threaten the way to Solace. I'd expect the most
rabid Rokari to come from Rindland. Human pagans would be rated a lesser
evil than Stygian raiders from Holut (very bad), inhuman invaders from
Guhan (even worse), and truth-distorting Castle coasters from the west
(absolutely worst, because active foes of the teachings of St. Rokar).
The Arolanit Brithini at least know their station, and know better than
to interfere with Rindland's affairs. (Yet.)
Central Tanisor is better off in that there is only one heresy in sight,
that of the Felster city states. I doubt they make much distinction
between Stygian and barbarian pilgrims to the 1st Age sites of Basmol,
Red Ruins and Hrelar Amali (Rindland's Arkhome included here). Both are
an immediate danger to the church, and probably persecuted as soon as
they start religious observances in public.
The Ralian territories held by Rokari might well discriminate between
dangerous heretics (Stygians mainly) and harmless benighted barbarians
(backwater Hsunchen remnants of Dangkae, Basmoli and Galanini ekeing out
a meagre existance in the no man's lands along the outskirts of Tarinwood,
hunted from within as from without. However, the southeastern Ralian
Stygians (of Tarasdal, Azilos and Tiskos) might differ from the Rokari
of say Galvosti-ruled Daran or Seshnegi-occupied native Dangim only
through non-canonical saints whose likenesses are hidden inside the
churches and chapels. (i.e. no Aeolian-like deviations from the Malkioni
way. Henk, did you send out the stuff and I missed it?)
Such deviants might be hard to persecute. I think it more likely that
bunches of iconoclastic fanatics (sponsored by the King, or the Rokari
church) will storm and deface the Stygian churches every now and then.
I doubt the Stygians will have effective means to strike back in like
ways, since the Rokari have no icons to be defaced, and the few symbols
they have are sacred to the Stygians as well.
Holut and the other Ralian areas north of the Lower Tanier seem better
suited for heretic-bashing, especially if the Henotheist Church involves
as many theist elements as my proposal for the Aeolians. However, Holut
seems to be a military power strong enough to ward off any effort of local
forces, forechecking even into Rindland. Should one of the mounted bands
of Holut raiders be caught in Rindland, it may well be religious court
which decides over the form of their death...
> I'd imagine
> Orlanthi mercenaries are regularly hired in Safelster (the "What the Wizard
> Says" line on how unreliable Storm folks are must refer to something like
> this, IMHO), and that foreigners from further afield would perhaps be even
> more welcome (after all, they don't have their relatives waiting in the
> wings if their power waxes great enough). Like the Varangian Guards.
Most likely in the only slightly Stygian counties south of Lake Felster,
bordering directly on the Tanisoran holdings. Not too likely in Daran,
given the religious orientation of the nobility there.
I expect a different behaviour for the Rokari bands of mercenaries
roaming in Ralios and Maniria. These soldiers are likely to be hired
by heretic lords to combat pagan invaders, so they might well be more
strongly anti-pagan than anti-heretic, given their usual opponents and
their ungodly theist magic.
Opinions?
I need a certain mind-set for the followers of Richard the Tiger-hearted...
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Curses
Message-ID:
Date: 27 Jun 94 15:20:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4855
Graeme Lindsell in X-RQ-ID: 4841
> Paul Reilly writes:
>> In our campaign the Uleria cult is important, a new temple is going
>>up in the main area. Uleria priestesses are pretty inviolate: no one
>>wants to risk the Curse of Uleria.
> Interesting. What other curses have people invented for cults? If curses
> are widespread enough then a mechanic should be in place (a ritual Ceremony
> with a small POW cost sounds about right to stop players abusing it IMO).
No curse proposal, but a mechanic proposal: As long as a powerful
religious curse is held in effect, it cannot be regained.
> The curses have the effect of denying the blessing of a god(dess), when
> respect for the cult is abused in some way ie they can't be used on enemies
> at will.
Maybe only rather the helpless beneficial deities ought to be
able to curse.
> I wonder what curse a priest of Yelm (say) could invoke, given the way Yelm
> gives his blessing to all. Perhaps Yelm becomes too dazzling to see by.
Trollkin-like reactions to sun-light, surely.
Storm Bull's curse might be a similar Demoralize in the face of chaos.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: niwe@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Various responses
Message-ID: <9406271526.AA28469@ppvku.ericsson.se>
Date: 27 Jun 94 19:26:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4856
Nils Weinander writing
Joe Lannom on my DI thoughts:
>No sir, can't say I like it.
>
>I like the rule as it stands now... people shouldn't be DI-ing for
>everyday stuff, but in situations where its "them or me", or sometimes
>"me or not me". Last resort, or "I really need this" situations, some
>danger should be involved... and not something that can easily be healed.
Well some people like gambling. I don't.
Martin (Argrath?) on the same subject:
>While I'm talking rules
>(gack! Me, talking rules?!), players shouldn't know how many DI
>points their characters have.
YES!! of course! why didn't I think of that?
Mark Buckley on the same subject:
>Have you tried the old StormBringer Elan system? That works quite
>well...
The rules for what actions are good for getting Elan are a good
source of inspiration for what should generate divine favour.
Paul Reilly on a related subject:
> I think it's important to keep in mind that ancient religion as represented
>in Greek, Roman, Sumerian, Egyptian, and other sources (leftout some examples)
>had much more emphasis on the correct perfomance of rituals and/or promises
>of sacrifices than on 'faith' and 'devoutness'.
...
> Perhaps the "devout" quoted above means "dutiful, performs correct
>sacrifices, etc." rather than "loves the deity, etc." I am not trying to argue
>with Nils W., he just reminded me of something I've been meaning to say for a
>while.
Very good points. I think this how it should work in Glorantha. I
also think that correct rituals etc on Glorantha is mainly a matter
of correct actions. So that when a Humakt kisses the death rune on
her sword and then strides into battle singing a funeral hymn for
the poor bastard she is going to cut into little pieces she is
performing the correct ritueal. When the Chalana Arroy healer is
comforting a sick child and puts her soothing hands on his
fevered brow, she is also doing the correct rites. What I am
trying to say is that the mundane actions are part of the ritual
of the cults.
Sacrifice seems to have little importance, except for the personal
sacrifice of magic points. As for rituals during active worship,
there is very little information in the published material.
_____
Martin/Argrath on Teshnos and castes:
> Indian castes are much more complex than Western Gloranthan
>ones. Rather than being a four- (or five-) way division, it is a
>division into hundreds of groups. The Brahmin/Kshatriya/etc.
>split is just varna or "color," not jati, or birth group. A
>person's jati determines customs and ritual practices, dietary
>rules, occupation, and of course marriage. A jati is like an
>Orlanthi clan, but is endogamous (marrying only within the jati),
>rather than exogamous. I can see something like this in Teshnos.
>"I am of the Phatum caste of Warriors--maintain your distance,
>impure stranger."
Sounds interesting. I see that I have a lot of information
gathering to do.
Nick on Teshnos (Night caste):
>Of course. I thought this was your intention, by having a fourth caste but
>not stating its solar aspect.
It wasn't at first, since I thought of the casteless as outside the
system, but the name would be fitting so I'll stick with it.
>Exactly my point! Reincarnation = Teshnan thinking; release from cycle of
>reincarnation = Kralori thinking. Is there a problem with this?
Ah, that's what you meant. I must be getting really slow. This makes
perfect sense. Now some implications. If inifinite reincarnation is
the original Teshnan-solar philosophy, what's the stage after
Zitro Argon/Evening caste? {Yes I have shuffled the Noon/Evening
names to suit the deity} even more reclusive Aether worshipping?
rebirth in the Upper World as a Fire angel?
Another thought: if we see Zitro Argon/Dayzatar as more oftenly
worshipped in Teshnos than in other lands this can have two
implications: either the Teshnans know some secret on how to
reach this aloof god, or his worship, Teshnos mode, started in
incredibly ancient times, before he withdrew beyond the sky
dome. The second would make Teshnan society _very_ old {which
I like, anything to screw the Brithini's superiority complex
based on age of culture :-)}. So, which seems more likely?
_____
Nick on Zoria
>Nils W> Where is Zoria?
>
>North Fronela. Where they invented Swedish Blondes, the Sauna, and various
>other essential aspects of civilised living.
I'm swedish, but I'm black-haired, not blonde, so I guess I'm not
to consider myself as an essential aspect of civilized living :-)
_____
Paul Reilly on the theory of magic:
> A very common phenomenon in magic is the person projecting a bit of
>herself through into the Otherworld.
...
This is by far the best explanation of (Gloranthan) magic I have
ever seen. Long round of applause!
> OK, the phenomenon is widespread. Shamanic, theistic, and Western
>cultures all have this. I am not sure about the Easterners; instead of
>entering the Otherworld they may just gradually realize the unity of
>things - this world may _be_ their Otherworld. Not sure, leave them
>out for now.
Being an east Glorantha fan I second this approach. It sounds like
a very good explanation of the different approaches of east and
west.
_____
Guy Hoyle's obituary for Valgrim Bull-Answers-Twice:
That's how characters should end their careers!
/Nils W
---------------------
From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172)
Subject: cultural differences
Message-ID: <01HE1B7NU4UUQWXPJS@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: 27 Jun 94 06:36:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4857
Hi all--
- Devin (re: Mistress Clam)
I think you missed the joke Martin and I spotted. I think his reference
to Molucca and certainly mine to Defender's Shore were both due to your
heading of the Mistress Calm entry which reads instead Mistress Clam.
Naturally, Mistress Calm is an integral part of Prax.
- on the Devin/Nick/et al debate
As an ex-historian (if you actually be such), I will comment that the
debate over whether humans are different now then what they were is not
exclusive to this forum. In fact, its an issue that you have to base on
what evidence there is available for a given culture and what your
perspective of humans is.
Personally, I feel that humans have a common emotional makeup that is
not exclusive to the present (people in the past got angry, fell in
love, were jealous, were covetous, etc.). However, the cultural
environment has been radically different and has had a vast array of
differences (including views on property heavily affected by the
availability of money, relations with nature and the elements, etc.).
For some interesting views on periods not that long ago I suggest the
following so that you can make up your own minds.
E. Le Roy Ladurie's "Montaillou" -- 13th century peasants in the
Pyrenees engaged in semi-nomadic sheepherding. Not a difficult book to
get into, and it has wonderful chapters on the domus (home unit), the
role of shepherds as bearers of news into the village, and magic.
Carlo Ginzburg's "The Cheese and the Worms" -- great title and a good
work on 16th century Italian peasants. The idea of god emerging from
the chaotic cheese and then allowing the worms to develop out of the
cheese into men is particularly amusing.
Peter Laslett's "The World We Have Lost" -- 17th century English
peasants and their way of life. Unfortunately, while it presents the
English countryside of 300 years ago as a very different place, this
work is rather dense.
Robert Darnton's "The Great Cat Massacre" -- essays on 18th century
France. The essay on the development of modern folktales I think is
particularly relevant to our discussions of myth, but the attitudes of
people towards animals (definitely NOT seens as pets) in the title essay
is also interesting in highlighting changing cultural viewpoints.
So much for being scholarly for the day.
--Harald
---------------------
From: goroh@fee.unicamp.br (Andre de Oliveira Fernandes)
Subject: DORASTOR
Message-ID: <199406271624.NAA08544@topazio.fee.unicamp.br>
Date: 27 Jun 94 10:24:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4858
Hi, folks!
What might exactly happen if someone doesn't show up at a High Holy
Day? I mean, are there any possible excuses (like beeing captured, or exiled)?
If someone's at Dorastor because he was exiled by the LE, and the
nearest temple/shrine is FAR away, would he become inactive? What if he's in
some kind of mission for his priest?
Question #2:
All those spiders at SpiderWood (sp?), do they have any religion?
Would an Aranea initiate/priest have an easier way to approach them? I think
they can talk to intelligent spiders, right?
Question #3:
What about a Gateway deep inside the SpiderWoods leading to that
Spider Island at Griffin Island? This island was right at the middle of a
chaos land, but the island itself wasn't chaotic, and was kept by giant
spiders! The spiders's cult "mission" could be that of GateKeepers, so that
they prevent these two chaos lands from communication & from transportation
(that would be a nice scape route, heh?). If it wasn't for the spiders,
Griffin Island would be in chaos grasp centuries ago!
Question #4:
IF the spiders at Dorastor worship Aranea, could a troll initiate
use their temple, or would it take quite a lot of spider-diplomacy to
achieve it?
PLEASE! I SEEK KNOWLEDGE!!!
Goroh
---------------------
From: cpearce@speed.intecom.com (Chris Pearce)
Subject: Personality Traits
Message-ID: <9406271706.AA05498@Sun.COM>
Date: 27 Jun 94 17:06:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4859
It's been a while, but the cycle has turned and I played some Runequest
again.
This time I played using Pendragon personality traits. They worked very
nicely. I chose an impulsive character, and it really worked to help
me play against type. The GM seemed amused, and amusing the GM is a
Good Thing (TM).
I'll write it up later and post it if it has any entertainment value. Till
then, a question: who is Barntar? I thought he was a Plowman-god, but when
we made characters we couldn't find any information about him. So instead
of being initiated to Barntar, my character was an Orlanth initiate and
a laymember of the Sparegrain cult.
--
Chris Pearce, cpearce@speed.intecom.com
I was in this prematurely air-conditioned supermarket and there were all these
aisles and there were these bathing caps you could buy that had these kind of
Fourth of July plumes on them that were red and yellow and blue and I wasn't
tempted to buy one but I was reminded that I had been avoiding the beach.