From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 29 Jun 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily Message-ID: <9406281943.AA09879@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 28 Jun 94 07:43:46 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4899 First, a public service message: I accidentally deleted Joe Lannom's e-mailing to me before I had a chance to read more than the very first bit. You may want to send it again, Joe. Joerg wonders: >Nolosian sailors and traders will encounter non-Rokari and >non-Malkioni on a regular basis, and the need to tolerate the Cult >of Dormal. (Do they view it as a Saint cult?) St. Dormal is a recognized saint among both the Loskalmi and the Rokari, in both Pamaltela and Genertela. (He didn't visit Pamaltela, but his knowledge was spread, nonetheless.) >Maybe only rather the helpless beneficial deities ought to be able >to curse. This especially makes sense in light of the Spirits of Retribution, for instance. Chalana Arroy and Lhankor Mhy, both pacifistic cults, have horrifying SoR; ditto for Eiritha. On the other hand, Waha's SoR isn't particularly terrifying. ZZ doesn't really have one; yeah, I know, Hell Roar -- but all he really does is lead a band of Death Lords and initiates to beat on you. Grim enough, certainly, but _any_ cult could send a band of baddies to getcha -- all Hell Roar does is make it easy for them to find you. Another, even likelier, interpretation is that the beneficial deities rely on other, specialized "vengeance" deities to protect them. Thus, we have Gorgorma, Maran Gor, Babeester Gor -- all of whom make sense only if there is a larger, benign cult for them to draw their strength from and to protect. Even Orlanth functions for Ernalda as a protector. Basically, the "Curse of Voria" consists of the priestess giving your home address to a batch o' Babeester Gor cannibal bitch-berserks. Probably most folks would beg for a healthy dose of Waste Loins instead. Andre Fernandes >What might happen if someone doesn't show up at a High Holy Day? Depending upon the reason he was absent, and the viciousness of his cult, I would instigate one or more the following penalties: 1) he doesn't get his POW gain roll for the year. (I'd always inflict this, regardless of what else happens to him.) 2) a minor spirit of retribution is inflicted on him. 3) a more serious spirit of retribution visits. 4) he is excommunicated. >All those spiders at SpiderWood (sp?), do they have any religion? They probably worship Aranea, if anything. If they have no religion (possible), then they'll still know about Aranea and be friendlier to a member of that cult. Which is not to say they won't kill and eat him if they have a good chance to do so. >What about a Gateway deep inside the SpiderWoods leading to that >Spider Island at Griffin Island? Up To Your Campaign. I don't think of the spiders in the Spider Woods as being particularly anti-chaotic, myself, however. >If the spiders at Doreastor worship aranea, could a troll use their >temple, or would it take a lot of spider diplomacy to achieve >it. Whichever's more fun for your campaign. If I were running it, I'd make the troll do all sorts of things to get the spiders to approve of him. Paul: >I'm not sure "we" know that the ever-reincarnating Red Emperor, >whose appearance never changes and who is said to descend again from >the Moon if his body is killed, is selected this way. I guess it's not a secret anymore, since Greg mentioned it openly at the last RQ-Con, so yes, this is how the Emperor's new persona is chosen -- lying, backstabbing, and chicanery. Various folks compete for the "honor" of being the Emperor, and once they rise to the status, the Emperor Goes On. However, the Emperor's soul (or something) is apparently in control of the new guy, whose spirit either goes to Glamour, or sticks around to advise the Emperor (not clear which). Pol Joni: I think these are primarily Orlanth & co. There is no doubt some Eiritha, but these guys are certainly no longer Waha worshipers. Probably retain plenty of shamanism. >> Compare the other Praxian outlaw groups: Amazons (Yelorna), >>Gagarthi, and Cannibal Cult. >But they're not an outlaw group,\ But they are, really. They're the "bastard" tribe. They're as much outlaws as the Gagarthi -- both are exiles from their home tribe. At least the Waste Gagarthi don't ride *choke* horsies *gasp*. The Bastard Tribe openly touches and rides horses, and enslaves the Eiritha cult to tend for their monstrous cattle, which are not beasts of the plains -- the cursed things can barely survive on thornbush. True, there's lots of meat on 'em, tho. On the other hand, probably no man is an "outlaw" in the Orlanthi sense to the Praxians. In the Wastes, where times are tough, who can tell the difference between a band of raiding Sable Riders and a band of marauding Gagarthi? The effects are the same. Anyway, while I think the Pol Joni are quite close to the Praxians in tribal and social structure, and philosophy, I suspect many of their tribal deities are different (not their shamanic ones, tho). I also imagine that the Praxians distance themselves psychologically from the bastards ("Just one step above the Morocanth!" as the saying goes). Scott: re: absence of incest >I believe it was common in some Polynesian cultures (possibly >Hawaiian, I'm not sure about that one) for the king to marry his >sister in order to keep the bloodline pure. Not only acceptable, >but required. No doubt, but surely you see this is a similar example to the Egyptian sister marriages -- (A) keeps the bloodline pure. (B) sign of being a king. and (C) _forbidden_ to the common folk. The Polynesian sister marriages are being done for the same reason as the Pharaonic ones -- _because_ incest is so unusual. re: RQ Miniatures I was about to write a long commentary about where to get Glorantha-like figures and which pieces were best, but Roderick Robertson's listing in yesterday's daily surpasses anything I'd have done, save for minor nitpicks. Recommended to all. Captain Button: >Assuming that Gloranthan allosaurs are like RW allosaurs >and that allosaur behavior hasn't been rethought since I was >in school (though it may well have), an allosaur gorges on >a kill and then sleeps for a week or two. Allosaur behavior has been rethought since you were in school. Still, the broos could possibly find an allosaur and keep out of sight long enough for their shaman to complete his ritual. Risky, but possible. In any case, the big risk is the death of the allosaur's "child" seconds after birth, which must occur in 99% of the cases. Since there aren't all that many allosaur/broo hybrids born in the first place, that leaves few of them to harass PCs. Just enough for one to show up in my campaign. > Is one of the very high level Heroquests to go and fight Wakboth >(alone, yet along with everyone else) in I Fought We Won? This is more probably the _end_ of a whole lot of other heroquests. The grand finale of the Hill of Gold Yelmalio/Elmal heroquest, for instance, closes with him fighting off hordes of chaos before he can greet the Dawn. I think this is probably the case with many if not most Greater Darkness quests. Ecological Thinking And Glorantha (biology majors may find points to pick at in this essay, but it's intended for non-majors, you nits; _I_ know I'm oversimplifying.) There are two factors determining how numerous a species is, ecologically. Ecologists call these the "r" and the "K" factors. "r" represents a species reproductive rate, while "K" represents its longevity and survival. Species are often broadly classified as "r" or "K" type species. In general, "K" species breed slowly, sacrificing quantity for quality. They tend to take care of their young, ensuring that as many as possible survive. They are long-lived, too. Many "K" species are associated with stable, unchanging environments, like a climax jungle. Some "K" species are rare, but this isn't necessarily the case. It is true, however, that a "K" species takes a long time to replace itself once it's been knocked out of an area. "r" species, on the other hand, generally breed very quickly, with little parental care. They have short childhoods (or, alternatively, short adult lives). They don't live too long, and frequently breed only once before death. Many "r" species are native to disturbed environments. Despite their breeding potential, "r" species may not be particularly numerous most of the time. An "r" species is usually pretty easy to wipe out in a given area, but it lays lurking in the wings, waiting a chance to explode back onto the scene. Humans, for instance, are a "K" species -- we breed incredibly slowly; we don't reach breeding age until 15 years or more, and a typical female rarely gives birth to more than 10 surviving children. Elephants, eagles, and whales are also all "K" species -- slow breeding, emphasizing survival of children and even adults. Even in the good old days, half of our children survived to adulthood. An amazingly successful rate. Rabbits are a fine example of an "r" species. They breed quite fast, don't live too long, and a typical doe will give birth to dozens of kits in her lifetime. Most will die, of course, but what the heck. A _few_ will survive. Another "r" strategist is the housefly, which doesn't even have a technique to survive the winter! In winter, pretty much all the houseflies in a given area die. No more than one or two out of millions can possibly survive the cold and ice. But those one or two lucky survivors are all it takes to repopulate your entire county with the teeming masses by late spring. Glorantha: broos are "r" strategists. I don't think broos live particularly long, and certainly most of their young don't. They rely on constant breeding to maintain their numbers, and probably mature quickly (I've always believed that a broo reaches full size in 2-3 years). On the other hand, broos are not necessarily numerous. BUT, when humanity is disturbed, and conditions are right, the broos can appear in enormous numbers in only a few years. Trolls are in an interesting state of flux. They seem to be evolving from "K" strategists into "r" strategists, if you consider the trend from uzuz to uzko to enlo. Dwarfs are probably the supreme "K" strategists in Glorantha. Even the Brithini are pikers compared to them. Note also that the dwarfs recover incredibly slowly from disaster. They still haven't bounced back from their near-extinction of the Gods War (but they weren't hit any harder than most other groups). Elves are probably outside this system. The numbers of elves is determined by the status of the forest and its ecology, not by the longevity or breeding speed of the elves themselves. In other words, the elves have a different limiting factor. Sandy --------------------- From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) Subject: Mystical Toe Chopping Message-ID: <940628072416_100270.337_BHL59-2@CompuServe.COM> Date: 28 Jun 94 07:24:16 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4880 In Paul's piece on Toe Chopping, he wrote: > I am not sure about the Easterners; instead of entering the Otherworld > they may just gradually realize the unity of things - this world may > _be_ their Otherworld. Not sure, leave them out for now. I've just come up with a couple of quick suggestions for integrating them. Maybe Nils can comment: he handles the Eastern material better than I ever will. > So, who are the people with a presence on the Other Side? Add: Mystics (including the Draconic, Kralori and Illuminated varieties). > The shaman jumps into the pool of water. > The priestess cautious sticks her toe in, with a lifeguard handy. > The sorcerer cuts off his toe and throws it in the pool - "That's not > me, it's something else that I can reach into the Otherworld with" The mystic says, "What pool?" Or perhaps the mystic is a fish, or water. He does not "jump into" anything: he becomes a part of it, and it of him. The two are indistinguishable. > Things that were once part of you are always part of you, in a magical > world. And so the Kralori strive to eliminate the self? Different, less limited kinds of magic would become possible for the one who Is Not. You have no "handles" any more: the world cannot affect you, because you are not part of it. Or, perhaps, because you *are* it. (Not a part: the whole). (The whole which is the hole: as all is nothing). Does this work for you? Or does it need more Taoism? You might be able to squeeze out some more detail from examining Cults of Terror cosmology and the Path of Illumination writeup. I think it's fair to lump those three "types" of mystics together: there are distinct similarities. (UnGodLearn- able, for a start). ==== Nick ==== --------------------- From: rowe@soda.berkeley.edu (Eric Rowe) Subject: Secrets Message-ID: <199406280832.BAA20789@soda.berkeley.edu> Date: 27 Jun 94 18:32:52 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4881 To continue the work of our fellow scientists, some who have mysteriously disappeared recently, we need to take an analytic approach to the missing secret of the god learners. As all we know is that it can be explained in three words it is a simple enough matter to collect all gloranthan words with a high probability of being pertinent and using powerful computer technology to generate random permutations until the desired secret is obtained. The first step is to create a database of likely words. A sample of the process is contained below. Choosing which permutation of words is the actual secret is the most difficult part. For this phase each participant will study a small subset of the generated phrases. An identical set will be sent to two additional scientists, who will not view those phrases. When terrible calamity befalls one of us we can be assured that the correct secret resides in the subset of phrases read by our unfortunate comrade. The whole process can then be redone on the smaller phrase sample until at last one phrase is left, and then it can be spread throughout the world without anyone alive having even read it. Worldwide simultaneous relevation at an appointed readind time will surely free the secret once and for all. Good luck fellows. Mythological Landscape Godlike Gods Ancestors Broken Compromise Religion Time Exist Equal Broken Mythological Landscape Ancestors Equal Gods etc... Remember, do not read the phrases until all are processed. This will not be your only warning. eric ps Mandatory aaahhhhhrrrggghhh......... --------------------- From: guy.hoyle@chrysalis.org Subject: MOROCANTH HER Message-ID: <9406280120.01VNS05@chrysalis.org> Date: 27 Jun 94 23:20:16 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4882 I had a thought recently, about a possible Morocanth Hero. He is bent on re-creating the Golden Age of Prax, and todo this he is releasing the INT of herd beasts of various tribes, initiating them into the cult of Waha, and teaching them the ways of intelligent beins. Does this fire anyone's imgination? GUY HOYLE formerly Valgrim Bull-Answers-Twice etc. --------------------- From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL) Subject: RE: Misc Stuff. Message-ID: <940628071447379@thuemmel.com> Date: 28 Jun 94 10:51:09 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4883 Jonas Schiott in X-RQ-ID: 4767 J> All we can do is take the assumptions we like best and see where they J> lead us. Then we can ponder whether or not we like the results. Well, I think its not quite that bad. We can ponder whether the results are consistent with what the historical record indicates probably happened. But, point taken. _______________________________ ANDOVER(name?) in X-RQ-ID: 4792 A> that people who used the term "magic" in the Middle Ages thought of A> it as neither irrational nor nonrational but as rational; Yes, yes. Medieval magic was very rational among the upper classes, once you accepted some really strange axioms, and a few odd ways of reasoning that don't seem very rational to us. For instance, you have to accept that demons and God exist before using the Greater Key of Solomon, and that magic works, but once you do that it is all very reasonable (excepting gemantria, etc..). __________________________ Devin Cutler X-RQ-ID: 4797 D> However, I note that it may be that your death rate for Gloranthans D> is a bit low...what with the current state of instant Spirit Magic D> healing and easily curable diseases. I have always imagined that the D> death rate in a Gloranthan city of 10,000 to be fairly low as D> compared to a Terran ancient city D> (Uh Oh, here I go again contrasting Glorantha with Earth. I'd better D> but on my asbestos jumpsuit!) Sorry, but I disagree, and point out the intro to the Glorantha Book, where it says: "Thus death rates for most of the human communities of Glorantha are similar to those of ancient or medieval Earth,..." (p. 10) _____________________________ Barron Chugg in X-RQ-ID: 4798 B> This brings me to a question I have always wondered about. Gods B> _have_ come into being since the Compromise (Arkat, Yelmalio, the B> Seven Mothers, Dormal, Hero cults). But when the Broken Council B> tried to create a god all heck broke loose. Somehow that attempt was B> "contrary to the laws of nature". Did the Council use some B> particulary evil method (aside from the Dragon's Egg and all) or is B> this just a great example of the winners writing the history books? I think the difference might be that Nysalor/Gbaji was a major god, and most of those you mention are minor. The Red Goddess was also created since time began, is major and look at the hullabellusurrounding her creation/ascension. WRT Yelmalio... where is this from? GRAoY? _____________________________ Dave Pearton in X-RQ-ID: 4801 D> I would view this as an extension of the illuminate's solipsism. The D> illuminate has a different veiw of the "soul" to others. It is this D> cynical attitude that allows him/her to ignore the promptings of that D> part of him that he has "sacrificed" [which a theist would belive are D> safe in the keeping of his god]. But what keeps the god from outing him in divinations? I would more lean towards the ability to be two-faced (at least). IE: he can actually BE a devout worshiper of several gods. Then he sends the loyal to Orlanth part of his soul to Orlanth, etc... Kinda schizo, neh? D> Btw: What does an illuminate thing will happen to him after death? Goooood question. Maybe they don't believe any of the cults' stories about an afterlife and so don't go to any? They are wanting to become gods and expect to live forever? Might vary some depending... _____________________________ Harald Smith in X-RQ-ID: 4805 H> Khalana and Orlantio Do Khalana worshippers dislike/distrust Orlantio worshippers? How do they feel about Orlanthi? How do they explain Chalana Arroy Worshipers' attitudes. The legend is very good (I was especially impressed with how dispicable Orlantio is in this culture!). It really has that myth-y feel to it. ____________________________ Paul Reilly in X-RQ-ID: 4813 P> Some Roman priests were notorious for near-atheist beliefs, Julius P> Caesar for example. He was Pontifex and coldly cynical rather than P> devout, and this was OK as long as he did the rituals right. But of course by this time the Oriental religions and mystery religions were the 'real' religions of the people. Roman religion during this period was entirely involved with showing loyalty to Rome. ____________________________ Paul Reilly in X-RQ-ID: 4815 P> more later, Yes, Yes! By all means more! I liked what you had, and it was frustrating not to see where you were going. No Comment, yet. _______________________________ Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 4816 S> I think the ancients are different from us because their S> cultures were different. I.e., 'tis culture, not technology, that S> determines your society, your philosophy, and your ethos. I quite agree. Thanks for the book suggestion, I'll look for it, and Thanks for MR. MAN SPEAKS-- it was hilarious! ____________________________ Martin Crim in X-RQ-ID: 4820 M> Re: historical development of atheism M> According to _Without God, Without Creed_, Spinoza (1632- M> 1677) was the first atheist. (This is from memory, so go check M> it if you care.) Before that, it was unthinkable. That's just M> one example, of course, of historical change in mental states. Well in Europe, maybe (barring the ancients like Lucretius), but what about say Averroes. And what about Abelard, William of Occam, Machiavelli, Bonaventure des Perriers, Rablais, Marlowe, Bruno, etc... Some of these were, if not quite atheists, close to it. Admittedly, before the time of Spinoza nobody could admit they were an atheist (even then he almost got killed for it), but obviously there was not a sudden change (revolution), but a slow evolution. Cullen