Bell Digest v940702p3

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 02 Jul 1994, part 3
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk


---------------------

From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: G'day from the Arse-end of the World
Message-ID: <01HE7M8QLOBM93FYGC@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: 2 Jul 94 10:26:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4966

G'day Everyone!

Just finished off term two of the school year (with the "Chez MOB Exclusive
Restaurant" day, where my kids made lunch and invited the teacher of their 
choice to join them at their tables).  I've now got almost a fortnight 
before I go to the UK for Convulsion, and plan to kick Soldiers of the 
Red Moon back into top gear; an end-of-the-year release is planned,
so there ain't all that much time when you think about it.  I already have
some fairly solid material to work from, but anyone who wants to put their 
oar in about the Lunar Army is invited to contact me via e-mail sharpish.

_______
No Shit

Sandy wrote:

>It's a time-honored tradition  
>to name Gloranthan places and names after people.

And somebody replied:

>>  Yagg.  I completely forgot this.  This is, indeed, a proud tradition. 
>>How about Nochet and Corflu?  I am sure the list goes on and on.

According to my sources, Nochet was not named after anybody, but instead 
came about in the following manner (quoting from a sidebox in my first
"Notes from Nochet" article in TALES #4):

#A NOTE ON PRONUNCIATION:
#
#Nochet.  Seems to slip off the tongue as 'No-shit' in Dave's and my
#reckoning; however, we stand corrected.  According to Greg:
#"...actually, the 'No-shit' prnunciation is wrong, despite my
#normally scatalogical sense of humour.  It is actually 'Not-yet',
#pronounced 'Not-Chet' around here.  Rudy Kraft pointed to the map
#and said, 'Does this city have a name?' and I said 'Not yet', and he said,
#'then we are going to Nochet', and so it was named".  So be it.  

Maybe 'No-shit' is how the heavily-accented Heortland refugees who've
swarmed into the city recently say it; no doubt this annoys the
Matriarch and her axe-maidens

I have no idea where Corflu came from, though it sounds suspiciously like
the Greek island.  I didn't consciously name any of the places in 
Sun County after people, but given that it is a "time-honoured" tradition,
I now retrospectively claim that the recalcitrant village of Sandy Lot was
named after you-know-who.  "Queenscliff" is actually a very nice seaside
town down the bay from the city I live.  One of the Lunar Coders is based
very much on a very good friend of mine (one of the co-writers of
Sun County), and his name shares a vague assonance. 


_____________
Steak Knives:

Jim Chapin (hey, did you play Leonidas at Convulsion?) reminds:

>Still haven't heard about my errata questions.  To make them specific:
>Ken Rolston what are the right stats for the third Thanatari head? And
>why can't Woroshi enter the temple, since he is an Atyar initiate, unless we
>are to take MOB's Atyar steak knives suggestion?

Complimentary sets of cutlery aside, I think my suggestion (only Thanatar
cultists get the safe-passage blemish; Atyar cultists don't, so they need
the talisman to safely enter a Thanatar temple) is a reasonable one.  I must
admit when I first read it, I too thought he shouldn't have any trouble
as being an initiate he should have the blemish.  But if you accept that
Woroshi is only an Atyar initate, then the explanation can work.

By the way, in my opinion the illustration of the Thanatar initiates
in Shadows on the Borderlands is quite off-beam.  Thanatari should look
like disreputable scholar-types (think of a philosophy student into the
8th year of his 3 year bachelor of arts degree), not mighty-thewed 
Arnold Schwartznegger look-alikes.

>(By the way, MOB, if Leonidas' appeal to the Court works, Gordius 
>should be IMPALED!  Good riddance to bad trash!).

I have every reason to feel confident that Gordius's explanation of his
actions at Boldhome and the aftermath will be accepted by the Inquisitorial
Commission, particularly as the only priest with Truth spells was
unfortunately confined to his tent with a severe bout of Uleria's
Measles while Gordius was giving his testimony!  In fact, I'm sure if 
anything he'll end up with a commendation and promotion!  Gordius 
will then not hesitate to recommend that a certain troublesome Yelm
Priest take up the Lunar government's generous "Early Retirement" package,
in which the recipient is bricked up in the retirement tower of his
own choice...

Hey Jim, where you the guy who played Leonidas at Convulsion? 


_________________
The Lizard of Oz:

David Cake, a fellow Aussie, writes:

>Well, I think all these things (freedom, barbarism) are true of all 
>three nations, differeing only in degree. I just think that it is 
>silly to generalise about cultures as similar as UK, USA, AUstralia.

I can't resist noting that one big difference between Australia and the US 
and UK is that Australia is, to quote the alleged words of our Prime 
Minister, at the 'arse-end' of the world.  (To which it could be said, "It 
takes one to know one").  I would guess that Australians in general would 
know more about what's going in both Britain and the USA than the reverse.
This not only because we are so far away (if Australia is the arse-end,
it's not hard to work out what my city is), but also because political
and economic events happening in Britain and US are more likely to have 
impact on Australia than the reverse (though this doesn't explain why 
I know more than I want to about OJ Simpson, et al.)  We are saturated with 
US television (the latest import being that infuriatingly purile
purple dinosaur, yechh!) and receive quite a bit of Brit stuff too,
whereas Brits probably get most of their notions of what Down Under is
like from that healthy dose of gritty social realism, "Neighbours".


_________________
I'm so Tough I...

Dragging out issue #4 to find the No-shit quote also uncovered the "I'm
so tough I..." cartoons that featured in that issue (and also the Mark 
Baldwin p.3 dryad pic that prompted Tale's long-standing "No Nipples" 
ban!).

Here are several of the "I'm so Toughs" for those of you unlucky
to have not gotten on to the Tales bandwagon early enough.  It's a shame
that I can't reproduce Mark B's accompanying cartoons - you'll just to
wait for the "Best of Tales #1 - #4 + #6" compilation, due out
later this year..

"I'M SO TOUGH I...

...take my Thanatar Major Head into exams with me"
Sophos the Glib One,
Lhankor Mhy apprentice, Nochet.

...gargle Styx water"
Coldblood, Vampire Lord of the Elder Wilds (great MB pic of vampire
brushing his teeth here!)

...volunteer as the ball in Trollball"
Cazaly, 
Jonstown Under (SIZ) 19's.

...put my Thanatar blemish on the end of my nose."
Yarr Killfast,
Thanatar initiate, Occupied Sartar.

How's about some more?  I might use the best ones in the Early Tales
compilation!

Cheers

MOB

---------------------

From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
Subject: Late Replies pt. 1
Message-ID: <940630100925537@thuemmel.com>
Date: 30 Jun 94 14:30:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4967

Martin/Argrath in X-RQ-ID: 4827
M> pilgrimage be a common variety of mini-heroquest, or RuneQuest

If we assume that a spell is not held by the local temple then a
pilgrimage would be an utterly natural form for getting rune magic to
take.

M> Re: Indian castes
M> I don't know of any good detailed source, Cullen; do you live close
M> to a university?  Actually, a decent public library

Thanks anyway, I was just wondering if you could recommend a really GOOD
book, ah well.
_____________________________
Barron Chugg in X-RQ-ID: 4828
C>>This fits in nicely with my conception of initiation (RD&EG)...  The
C>>idea is that getting Rune Spells is essentially the result of a minor
C>>heroquest (that is what you're proposing right?)...
B>
B> Yeah, that is exactly what I mean.  But I am not certain if the HQ is
B> real or implied (or if the two ideas can be separated).  I like the

I think some combination of visions and ritual reenactment of a myth in
which the God uses the power would be likely.

B> BTW, what is "RD&EG"?

Running, Ducking and (Evil) Grinning.  This is in regards the endless
initiation debate (especially between Alex and Joerg) which happened
just a short time ago.  Just for the record my views on initiation are
very RQ2esque.

B> I like the idea that the more powerful spells imply a certain risk.
B> I mean, if you tie yourself close enough to the Death rune that you
B> can kill another person...well, that should have some side
B> effect/risk.  But, on the other hand, this is opening a whole new can
B> of worms...

Yes, it is, isn't it.  Well, reserving it for the grossly powerful
spells makes it a small can at least.

C>> For regaining the spell, some sort of mental reliving of the quest
C>> might be in order?
B>
B> What is worship beside comtemplating the aspects of your god?  You
B> can just chose which aspects (i.e. spells) you wish to relive.

This is the point where I said, Yeah! each spell has a mythical usage.
Now thinking up all those myths is a BIG can! ;^)

B> Sure, sure, throw facts at me.  Jeez, what a pedant! :-)

Don't you just hate it when somebody does that? ;^)

B> Since Western culture has not been at all developed (wouldn't a
B> few nice myths of Malkion be nice?), we (the playing public) are
B> just filling in the copious gaps with something familiar.

Oh, wouldn't that be nice.  As is we don't even know if Hrestol died at
all (heat failure, crucifixion, etc...).  Really, the west is impossible
to play at this point without being sure of immense, and I mean really
massive, Gregification.

B> Meanwhile in Fronela and Safelster, Michelle is alive and well.  And,
B> again, to make my bias clear, I don't like to Rokari much (hey, Greg
B> can hate Mostali, I can hate Rokari).

Until we have a mythology, I don't much like the West.  And reading over
everything I have on the West, I came to the conclusion that we just
don't have enough clues to make even a good guess at what the myths of
the West might be.

?>Paul Reilly?
P>> the God Learners obviously pondered, and came up with answer "Not
P>> real, just exploitable heroquest paths".
B>
B> scientist, the "god" is just the paths.  In Glorantha I have no
B> trouble with them both being right.  Particle or a wave, you make the
B> call!!

I agree that it depends on your point of view.  The god does have a lot
of knowledge and seems to communicate, but he is locked into a pattern
of
behavior and so isn't exactly 'alive' in the usual sense of adapting to
change.  The only way a god/cult can adapt to change is by having a hero
change the legends.  Who is a hero?  Someone who changes the legends ;^)
________________________________
Graeme Lindsell in X-RQ-ID: 4845
G> Are you entirely sure about this? I've recently been reading Homo
G> Hierachicus by (name already forgotten), which is an analysis of
G> the Indian caste system. The author makes the point that hierarchical

Could you give your opinion of this book (was it worthwhile?).  I'd
appreciate it, and there was at least one other person who was also
interested in Hindu culture (especially the details of caste).

PS: That is, worthwhile to the interested amateur, who wants to learn
more, so as to apply it to Gloranthan and other RPG settings.
______________________________
Jonas Schiott in X-RQ-ID: 4853
J> I think Devin's point was that no matter how much you ascribe
J> different beliefs to other cultures, you are still assuming that you
J> know what it means to _hold_a_belief_, and that this psychological
J> mechanism remains the same throughout the ages. Which may very well
J> be true, who knows? It's at any rate not _a_priori_ ridiculous as a
J> methodological assumption.

But the real point of contention was: are Gloranthans more devoted than
Medieval people.  I say not, Devin disagreed.  `nuf said.

J> My thoughts on this are still a bit unclear, but if we accept this
J> gregging "runequesting" can't be a general Gloranthan term, it would
J> be confined to those areas where rune cults are worshipped. But on
J> the other hand, do all Gloranthan cultures speak of "heroquesting"?

Entering into the spirit realm.  Going to see the Gods.  Having a
Holiday on the Heroplane.  Call it what you like, I'm more interested in
making getting runespells a non-downtime operation.  This makes being an
initiate more interesting, and lends color to the otherwise dull:
"OK, I get back and give 10% letsee 24 lunars to the temple and sack 1
POW for Heal Wound (or whatever)."

Cullen

---------------------

From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
Subject: Late Replies pt. 2
Message-ID: <940630100928538@thuemmel.com>
Date: 30 Jun 94 14:31:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4968

Nils Weinander in X-RQ-ID: 4856
N> What I am trying to say is that the mundane actions are part of the
N> ritual of the cults.

Assuming that that action is related to an aspect of their god...
I would think that an ill defined elan type of thin for DI based on
whether the worshiper is acting correctly in the eyes of his god (ie:
IMHO, acting as like the god would as is possible).  Some system for
gaining a chance at DI during downtime through devout action might also
be good.

N>(Night caste): I thought of the casteless as outside the system

But seeing as the sun is gone in this one case... of course they're
outcaste in a solar society, right?

N> rebirth in the Upper World as a Fire angel?

A possibility, but the ultimate goal (a la Hindus) is Union with the
God...?  Of course from a Kethalan POV this is temporary with the soul
falling don to hell again (as per solar myth) becoming separate and
having to climb again.  Of course this may be too much similarity to the
stereotypical Hindu India vs Buddhist China... I'm not sure.
____________________________________________
Andre de Oliveira Fernandes in X-RQ-ID: 4858

A> are there any possible excuses (like being captured, or exiled)?

I would assume that when you came back to worship, you would be accepted
if you had a good excuse.  It might depend on your good standing in the
temple, and might require special worship and donations, etc...

A> If someone's at Dorastor because he was exiled by the LE, and the
A> nearest temple/shrine is FAR away, would he become inactive? What if
A> he's in some kind of mission for his priest?

I would think (given the Orlanthi and Lunars surrounding Dorastor) that
you would be able to find a shrine at least to most gods.

This leads me to an interesting question.  Can an initiate set up a site
at will?  If he gets enough people to worshiping regularly does it
become a shrine?  I would tend to say yes to a site, but a shrine needs
a dedication by a priest, and to have a priest level there.

I can't really answer your spider questions as I haven't studied
anything except the first section of D:LoD, don't have Griffin Island.
But I would say, go with what you find convenient, you'll probably get
Gregged, but then you will anyway. };^)
___________________________
Kevin Rose in X-RQ-ID: 4865
K> Jar-eel exists and is very impressive, but she is so far beyond
K> normal that she doesn't really count, any more than Joan of Arc

Hon-Eel, Hwarin Dalthippa, a good part of the 7 Mothers, the Red Goddess
herself.  Well, perhaps you're right and a woman in a martial area is a
rarity...    It seems to me that Jar-eel is so far beyond normal
because she is the one who was successful among the many who failed.
_________________________________________________
Captain button@illuminati.io.com in X-RQ-ID: 4871
CB> [ New poster to the Daily.  Please be gentle.
CB> Does posting make me an Initiate?  If so, of what? ]

It'll quickly turn you into either a GodLearner or a rabid anti-GL'er
IMHO, since (from your address) your obviously an illuminated fellow,
welcome to the GL side!

CB> There is "really" only one event for each runespell, which
CB> the magic makes a mystical connection to.  Thus Sever Spirit

But of course.  And you get the spell by going on a (very) minor HQ.
This is probably just a ritual reenactment (with little or no risk in
most cases) of the original godtime myth.  Then to get it back you
meditate on the ritual/myth.  This fits in with what Barron has been
saying.

CB> Of course, the strength of the manifestation of such a primordial
CB> spell is limited by the resources of the caster, and is thus a pale
CB> shadow of the original.

Or by the number of times it is called on.  The spell might be getting
progressively weaker, or it might be stable.  Interesting Question, yes?

CB> New runespells are made by Heroquesting back to the Godtime,
CB> and creating a new Primordial spell.  Heroquests to get spells
CB> from other gods create links from the Ur-spell to the Heroquester,
CB> which may be limited to one-use because of their indirect routing.

Perhaps several heroquests would be neccesary to get the spell reusable
for the cult?  This would involve interweaving it more closely with the
legends of the god.

CB> (This crypto-God Learner idea is based on an unholy melding
CB> of computer science and the quantum physics idea that there may
CB> be only one electron going back and forth in time.)

See, I knew you'd be on our side... come let me show you our secret
handshake.

Interesting point RE: Ressurection.

Welcome aboard.
_____________________________
Barron Chugg in X-RQ-ID: 4872
B> I am not convinced that "by rote" recitation of the rituals is enough
B> for initiation (for ogres, maybe, but they, like illuminates, are

I would tend to think that it takes a willing priest (free to use magic)
to create the initial link to the god (or link to the set of RunePaths
constituting a mythical cycle of a now apotheosized hero, whatever).
Without him to direct the the POW sacrifice, it wouldn't get to the god
and create a link.

 >Paul Reilly:
P>>  Thanks for your indulgence...
 >
B> I haven't had time to digest this in the least yet, but I will soon!
B> From what little I've read I like what I see.

Hmmm, I was thinking of trying to recast Paul's letter in the RunePaths
metaphor as I was reading it.  (Shows you how readily I took to your
metaphor, yes?)
______________________________
Neil Robinson in X-RQ-ID: 4873

N> The sorceror is free to create a place in the otherworld.  (Hey,
N> didn't Orlanth do this too?)  What makes the _free_ sorceror

Well of course Worlanth is just a western wizard.
_____________________________
Barron Chugg in X-RQ-ID: 4879
B> Another interesting question is whether the POW sacrifice is the
B> start of the ritual or the end.  Sort of the cost of the excursion.

I'd say neither, its at the point in the ritual when you actually get
the spell (ie: engage in the reenactment of the actual action that gave
your god this rune spell.)  In Campbellian terms (ye ole circle at the
start of Chapt IV _Hero with a thousand faces_) its not at the entering
or leaving the otherworld, its at the Apotheosis/elixir theft stage.

When you actually cast the spell, what is involved?  Another 'mental
reenactment'?  A trigger word/action that brings forth the actual magic?

Cullen

---------------------

From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: G'day from the Arse-end of the World
Message-ID: <9407011517.AA04953@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 1 Jul 94 16:17:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4969

MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au:

>G'day Everyone!


>>>  Yagg.  I completely forgot this.  This is, indeed, a proud tradition. 
>>>How about Nochet and Corflu?  I am sure the list goes on and on.


>I have no idea where Corflu came from, though it sounds suspiciously like
>the Greek island.  

Cor-Flu, or correction fluid...

I proposed to Greg that it be renamed Backspace in this
electronic age...
-- 
Henk	|	Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[]	|	Single Point of Change, Multiple Points of Reference

---------------------

From: jclannom@mathlab.mtu.edu (Joe Lannom)
Subject: Time (with a capital T which rhymes with P which stands for...)
Message-ID: <9407011525.AA13226@mathlab.mtu.edu>
Date: 1 Jul 94 15:25:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4970

Look out, here comes some more hypothesizing.

>Alex Ferguson writes
>>but I don't see why people would believe it to be "not time",
>>unless they have some reason to.
> 

>Why? people can believe some really strange things. As for as
>I can see, they don't believe it to be "not time" (ie they think
>it's causal), but not Time ie the Gods were unbound. Why they
>believe Time should bind gods is another matter.
> 


Um, after some reading on the compromise I found a passage that  
claims that:

"The gods agreed to be bound by time, and thusly no one could  
avoid things which they did not like."

If you tie this together with another passage that states  
"Imagine when gods were forced to face themselves in battle, as  
when Kargan Tor..."

So, here's my theory about brontosa^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H time.

When the Gods were not bound by time, they were able to curlique  
around in the causalities.  Thusly, things COULD occur more than  
once because the god could simply step back to before it happened  
and do it again.  If something bad occured, they could either  
jump over it, or go back and divert whatever caused it to happen  
in the first place.

Confused?  You won't be.

Time still progressed sequentially, for them teeny little folks  
like the Dara Happans, but the Gods had the ability to leap  
around the time line... and when they leapt into a period that  
they already occupied, we obtained more than one of a god in  
existance at the same time.

This would explain gods with several names, different actions  
performed by the same god in different myths about the same  
occurance, etc.  


Now, the compromise has bound them into one spot.  There is now  
only one occurance of each god.  No more duplicating yourself by  
jumping back in time 5 minutes.  If you want to play bridge, go  
find yourself a partner.

Therefore, the sequence of events in God Time is preserved, for  
the most part.  However, the sequence as experienced by each god  
is probably different than that of any other god, which explains  
a few more things. (Each cult having their own version of a myth,  
etc.)

A web, therefore, is the .only. way to correctly represent the  
sequence of events of the god time.  They twist around each other  
in so many ways it HAS to be at .least. a 3 dimensional  
representation.

Weird.

Maybe you can get more than one of you (eg: Arkat the Odd) if you  
heroquest REAL close to the compromise and wander to the God Time  
in the hero plane.  If you could avoid Arachne Solara long  
enough, you might be able to create a couple duplicates and bring  
'em back.

To sum up: "Not time" is just that period in which it was way too  
confusing to try and sort things out in an orderly fasion.  In  
typical primitive fasion, the peoples of glorantha just swept the  
details under the carpet and said that time didn't exist.

And, for those groups that believe that time started at different  
times.. they probably just didn't notice that the gods were  
acting "normal".

HMmm. but what about being "outside" of time?  That would  
probably sift down to mean being removed from the causality of  
the universe.  They don't exist, for purposes of being able to  
physically perform actions, within the universe, therefore, they  
are "outside" time.

Weirder.  I'm gonna stop before I confuse myself.

joe lannom