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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 05 Jul 1994, part 2
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From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
Subject: RE: more stuff...
Message-ID: <940703064611607@thuemmel.com>
Date: 3 Jul 94 07:46:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5011
Henk Langeveld in X-RQ-ID: 4912
H>to perform an Heroic action "as the god would do in the situation".
H>The POW spend allows/enables, ah, emPOWers the initiate
H>to actually perform the miracle.
I like this. It seems to me to provide a model for DI that would work
well with the 'No gods, just paths' interpretation. I also like the
idea of the player having to make an act of faith when trying for a DI.
It seems to me that this will (at least) lead to the deaths of players
being more heroic than might otherwise be the case. "OK, I charge the
line of broos, and call on Storm Bull to fill me with his power and his
fury..."
H>The question whether the god or the initiate is acting here is
H>moot as for that instant they're one...
I wonder if a successful DI affects the Rune/HeroPaths of that god?
Reinforces them like an act of worship maybe?
_______________________________
Nils Weinander in X-RQ-ID: 4913
N> I.e. the paradox of the Void: everything springs from nothing =>
N> every object == nothing => every object == every other object.
When Buddhists say everything is empty, they mean it does not exist
essentially (ie: it has no eternal unchanging essence), but only in
relation to other things. I think this is what is intended by your
diagram, and by the Kralorela mysticism stuff we have, but then again it
could be interpreted as philosophical idealism, or as nihilsm.
N> reach this aloof god, or his worship, Teshnos mode, started in
N> incredibly ancient times, before he withdrew beyond the sky
N> dome. The second would make Teshnan society _very_ old
The aloofness might actually have a snob appeal ;^)
____________________________
Elias Kadri in X-RQ-ID: 4921
>Colin Watson, commenting on Barron Chugg's Runepaths:
>C> God, Cult and Path are somewhat unified.
E>
E> I agree with this, but I would place considerably more emphasis
E> on the "God" portion than you seem to.
Why? I'm sure a worshiper of Orlanth would tend to do this, but as a
GM I would tend to try to see it from different points of view depending
on the situation. If a NPC is recounting a myth then the god is the
focus, but if a person is Rune or Hero Questing then the paths format
seems to me the easiest aid to understanding (in my own mind) what is
happening (so I can explain it to my players in the God metaphor).
______________________________
Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 4922
A> the kind of place where hardened pragmatist nations of warriors would
A> wait a couple of weeks for the correct phase of the moon before
A> marching to the aid of their allies at a crucial moment of a war, or
A> spend thousands of man-years of effort on raising mausolea to the
A> dead, or conducting human sacrifice, or going to war about which holy
A> book to use, or anything so senselessly devout as that. How the hell
A> much more devoted do you _want_?
Nice Examples. But I've come to the conclusion that Devin doesn't seem
to want to admit that the world view of medieval peoples was similar to
what he has proposed for Gloranthan Theists, with the added proviso that
God knows everything you're thinking and everything you do. Also, if
the god is there to congratulate you, then you know you've done good.
Without this (and given the horrible nature of hell) the worry that
you're not good enough is constant, driving you to greater and greater
lengths to prove your devoutness to your (doubting) self. Actually the
presence of actual gods might decrease the devoutness of their actions.
If in fact they know that the god exists from experience, then they
might lay back, sure that by merely going to church and not suffering
impests (etc) that they are among the saved. But then again there are
plenty of cases in medieval history where the faith of the people seems
so unshakable that I can't (quite frankly) imagine anyone being more
sure of the existence of a divinity.
Also Devin seems to assume that the existence of the gods is obvious. I
just don't get this. Unless he's saying that they are manifesting
themselves to the flock on a regular basis. His argument using divine
magic seems flawed to me. Given that magic is a given, that the priests
know how to do some that is powerful just makes them a secret magical
society that claims to worship a 'god' whatever that is. A really
powerful spirit if you ask me! ;^)
I favor the 'open to interpretation' model of the gods. That might
exist as constrained but powerful thinking beings. Then again they
might only exist as Paths in the Rune/Hero/God-Plane.
___________________________
Gary James in X-RQ-ID: 4928
G> Barron Chugg has posted some great ideas on following runepaths to
G> gain spells. In terms of RQ mechanics, I see these runepaths being
G> laid out in worship ceremonies. The number of worshipers present
G> would affect the number of runepaths available in a given ceremony.
G> The particular paths would vary depending on the needs and desires of
G> the worshipers and the priestesses leading the ceremony.
Would the priest(ess) be able to recover one point per ritual? How long
is this ritual?
G> The important point, in terms of magical ecology, is that the only
G> limit on how often ceremonies are held is the willingness of
G> worshipers to attend. Where there are many worshipers, ceremonies
G> may be held weekly or even daily (nightly?). Thus, an Ernalda
G> priestess can easily recover her Bless Crops spell at plowing time.
Hmm, this does have appeal. But seems open to abuse by powergaming
players with lots of followers.
G> However, consistent with Sandy's (and others') arguments, Resurrect
G> is not readily available because Chalana Arroy worshippers while
G> widespread, are a tiny minority in most cultures. (All? Is there
G> anywhere Chalana Arroy is worshiped as the principal deity? I seem
G> to have a vague recollection of a great temple to Chalana Arroy
G> somewhere in the Holy Country.)
Worshippers here is initiate status or simply lay. Does an initiate
count for several lay members?
____________________________
Mark Foster in X-RQ-ID: 4929
M> The point? Most women in Glorantha are probably more fulfilled by
M> traditional _roles_, although like modern women they probably want
M> equal pay i.e respect for equal work. So doesn't this provide plenty
M> of opportunity for women characters?
Pam already answered this as it should be answered (I really liked the
'adventure' presented), but I just thought I'd chip in:
If women want to play a role where the are given little power/authority
but expected to do the work, and if they want anything done will have to
work behind the scenes: They'll just become housewives, what do they
need games for?
________________________________
Graeme Lindsell in X-RQ-ID: 4931
G> The central teaching of Illumination, we're told, is that chaos is
G> not necessarily evil. This is such a shocking concept to many central
G> Genertelans that if unprepared they go mad, and they adopt an often
G> solipsistic view of reality.
I always thought of illumination as a kind of cultural relativism. This
would allow one to realize 'the other side' of things. That is to say,
you realize that chaos monsters are just acting out what their culture
requires them to do, and that if they enjoy death and mutilation it is
because they were taught that these are fun (or were not taught to
empathise with beings not like them).
Cullen
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From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
Subject: RE: even more stuff...
Message-ID: <940703064614608@thuemmel.com>
Date: 3 Jul 94 07:47:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5012
Barron Chugg in X-RQ-ID: 4952
B> the slant of each culture put on them. No single version is "true",
B> but each has aspects of truth.
This is how I view the 'Gods Exist' vs 'Just Us Pathes Here'.
^ opps!
B> I feel that rituals that expect results require some level of
B> devotion, doing the dance a saying the words is not sufficient.
This could be represented by having rituals wherein the candidate is
expected to 'do the Orlanth-like thing' without being told what that is,
and without being warned. He would then be judged by his actions, and
might get promoted, not kicked out or killed depending on his response.
B> "yes". This allows a GM to throw in sadistic CAs ("It's for your own
B> good.") and gentle Uroxi ("The Bull wants us to fight chaos, not each
B> other."). Now, these would be rare, but one of the best ways to
B> shake up a group of PCs is to throw in a person completely the
Well, anything to shake up the PCs is good in my book. They wouldn't be
popular with the hierarchy, but as 'not-quite heretics' they'd be
tolerated until the god's displeasure manifested itself.
B> every action of the devoted follower is a tribute to their deity. Or
B> a reflection of their devotion. IMHO everytime an Uroxi fights chaos
B> he is walking one of his god's Runepaths. Same for a trickster
B> pulling a practical joke. Or a CA treating a wound. To reenact the
B> deeds of your god is a form of worship. But, to do it "properly" the
B> proper frame of mind (parallel to that which the deity had) must be
B> present.
Well, if the initiate (or whatever) reflexively does what the god would
do (or what he thinks the god would do) then he's being devout. The
frame of mind will come about as the initiate progresses. Do the
actions long enough, and the proper mindset will follow. This is a
common form of indoctrination.
B> This is definitely a reasonable way to look at it. I'd probably add
B> that things the god does over and over could also make it into the
B> runemagic lexicon. In fact, I'd bet the lower cost spells are more
B> the "everyday" aspects of the god, while the biggies are tied to
B> specific events (defining moments, if you will). As for associates,
B> I imagine the quest involved is based on the time your god aided
B> their god.
I agree completely. One heroquest ought to be: going into a gods myths
and using that 3 point non-reusable spell enough times in the role of
your god to make it a 3 point re-usable.
___________________________
David Cake in X-RQ-ID: 4935
D> Basically, I think that there must be some separation between god and
D> cult, and the god must not be omnipotent. Otherwise we have no
D> heresy, no corrupt priests. Or rather we just claim that they are all
D> illuminated, which is almost as limiting. I like religions to be a
D> bit less reliable than CoP implies.
I quite agree. Also, how else do we explain the West's claims that the
gods are just big spirits, if there isn't any limit on a gods contact
with his cult.
__________________________________
Joerg Baumgartner in X-RQ-ID: 4949
J> I find the myths the more consistent the more I look at different
J> accounts of the same or similar events. Sometimes the myths as they
J> are presented now have different names or flavors, but the basic
J> facts seem to remain. Even if we find a whole dozen sun gods beaten
J> at the Hill of Gold, the fact remains that some sun god(s) were
J> beaten there. If we don't take everything in a myth literal, there
J> can be found a certain sequence of events.
The Monomyth can be regarded as the paths that were known to the same
gods under different names changing to all the paths being known and the
god having one name. The changes are due to heroes altering the paths
for everyone, but only those who worship their version of the god
knowing about the change and/or particular paths being forgotten in a
given area.
J> teachings which throws them off-balance.) By letting Chaos devour the
J> causes of the weaknesses in the fabric of the world, Argrath does the
J> illuminated thing and turns chaos upon itself. The deities which
J> remain are the solidified, reunited gods essential for the continued
J> existence of the lozenge.
Sort of an unraveling of paths woven together by the Godlearners being
reversed by removing loose threads?
________________________________
Graeme Lindsell in X-RQ-ID: 4951
>Alex Ferguson writes
>A> but I don't see why people would believe it to be "not time",
>A> unless they have some reason to.
G>
G> Why? people can believe some really strange things. As for as
G> I can see, they don't believe it to be "not time" (ie they think
G> it's causal), but not Time ie the Gods were unbound. Why they
G> believe Time should bind gods is another matter.
_ _
As a matter of fact Sarvastivada (the teaching that says everything is)
Buddhism is distinct from the school (Sthavira) it split off from for,
in the main, positing that everything -past, present and future- exists
simultaneously. And this is from the real world...
Cullen
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex)
Subject: Farm Immediately.
Message-ID: <9407041057.AA17694@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Jul 94 10:57:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5013
Argrath@aol.com:
> Being militia is proper for the Farmer class, so they're hardly
> untrained, or breaking caste prohibitions.
Have a glance down the Farmer occupations, and see if you come up with a
great set of weapon skills. If they were recruited straight in the army
to actually _fight_ (and not to act as squires, or whatever), as Graeme
proposed, they certainly would be breaking their class restrictions.
(Brevet field promotions, anyone?)
> Who is Barntar? After a lot of debate on this Daily, I still
> believe that he is a god within the Orlanth cult.
I agree with this, mostly. At least it avoids the sub-word. Probably
something like the Vinga situation pertains: cultists use mostly Orlanth
(Thunderous, in this case) magic, with a single special spell (or so)
at the Barntar shrine. Any guesses as to what it is? (I have an uncanny
feeling it might feature "Plow" in the title.)
> Alex Ferguson asks us to decline "geas."
> No thank you.
Well done. Bonus marks for "politely".
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex)
Subject: Use Your Illusion III
Message-ID: <9407041103.AA17762@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Jul 94 11:03:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5014
Jonas Schiott:
> The Glorantha Book implies that people in Safelster speak Ralian, a Western
> tongue (if they didn't, who in Ralios would?), while according to the
> Genertela Book they speak Safelstran.
Whoops, mild library use fumble on my part. Okay, reread my previous
assertions as "Safelstran is a Western language, with a large influence from
the Ralian Theyalan dialects."
> I think the reason a lot of people prefer to talk about
> _hero_questing is the 'paradigmatic shift' away from Runes. [...]
> But on the other hand, do all Gloranthan
> cultures speak of "heroquesting"?
Doubtless not. But as a "meta" term, it seems more generally descriptive.
I don't really think (being or following) a rune is a more "everyday"
concept than (being or following) a hero.
> >Can belief create reality in Glorantha?
> Yes: Illusion.
Leading to thorny questions such as: Is Illusion Reality?; and Is Illusion
Caused By Belief?
> Harald in X-RQ-ID: 4812, on Barron's stuff
> >Curiously, this approach reminds me of the RQII schema where people set
> >out to walk in the path of the gods to achieve runes.
> Good to see I'm not the only one - what's happened to everyone else's
> memories? Has there been a (gasp) Minarian Memory Removal on the net? :-)
RQII? What are you talking about? RuneQuest is now, has always been, and
will always be in it's One True Only First Edition (Mint Condition, minimum
bid 40 squid).
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex)
Subject: Getting Into the Spirit of Prax.
Message-ID: <9407041207.AA18035@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Jul 94 12:07:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5015
Devin is accused by Graeme:
> "Devin Cutler Spirits of Prax: all quite nice, and rather useful given
> the very few spirit cults we've been given. Please take care not to
> give shamans to full a range of rune magic, though."
> How does one stop shamans from getting a full range of Runespells given the
> following:
> So many spirits means tons of Divine Magic, most of it unique (I suppose)
Not necessarily, many may be "fragments" or "aspects", or dare I say,
"relatives" of more important deities, and hence give fairly bog-standard
rune magic, or if anything, poor imitiations thereof.
The restriction on spirit magic cults is fairly evident from GoG. Not
only does the shaman have to sacrifice POW to each, he has to persuade
(ideally 100) others to do so, in order to maintain the cult, and his own
access to the magic. If he tries to persuade the same bunch of guys to
worship the 12th spirit cult he's dredged up this season, he may find
enthusiasm waning.
> I imagine that most wandering spirits that are tied to an element tend to
> give access to Bind/Summon/Command that elemental and little else (e.g. like
> Amanstan).
I dunno about _that_. While many spirits may _be_ overgrown elementals,
elemental spells are likely only to be available from the (much) larger
cults. Amanstan's not really a spirit cult in the usual sense.
But the general "rule" is that each spirit grants only _one_ spell. If
you want more, you have to make it into a "proper" cult, or go find an
additional spirit. (Repeat above process.)
> Sandy writes:
> "[...] It was a huge
> culture shock to go to England and learn that many (if not most)
> British players did NOT see the Lunars as villainous. "
Back of the class for the implied conflation of "British" and "England",
Sandy.
> Perhaps (I hope this does nto become too controversial ;-) ) it is also
> attributable to the fact that Americans tend to value freedom (you know...
> I'll keep my guns in my house, untouched by the government, or go down
> shootin...) in ways that UKers do not (as much) , and therefore they tend to
> identify with the Orlanthi as patriots.
I don't know that I'm exactly overjoyed at "UKers", either...
I can only stand and marvel at the deft thread of impeccable logic you
weave linking the superficially distinct-seeming concepts of "freedom
loving", "have lots of gun deaths" and "patriotic". Masterful.
Back in the Bad Old Days when I played RQ2, no-one in our group played
a Lunar (though they were some positively unsavoury other things which
did crop up, sadly). The closest I remember anyone getting was musing:
"It might be fun to play a Lunar, and have everyone hate you". This from
the man who'd played elves in groups including trolls. ;-/
> Anyways, I saw parallels between
> Sartar under Lunar occupation and the US in pre-Independence days.
I can only imagine that the Orlanthi are being compared here to the
indiginous peoples, and not to the degenerate, over-civilised invading-
and-occupying types.
Alex.
---------------------
From: niwe@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Eclectic esoterica (how's that for an allitteration)
Message-ID: <9407041341.AA25035@ppvku.ericsson.se>
Date: 4 Jul 94 17:41:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5016
Nils Weinander writing
I said:
>NW>The dragons come from the soul of the Cosmic Dragon, which
>NW>emerged spontaneously from the Void?
Paul said:
> I say,true dragons are older than Glorantha. They can exist in the Void
>without need for a world. They can navigate the Void between the worlds,
>dreaming their own reality along the way.
OK, what about created about the same time, but separately, ie in
the same 'Big bang'? Something along the lines that the dragons
were created from the soul of the Cosmic Dragon, the mountains of
the world(s) from its bones etc.
Btw, 'navigating the Void between the worlds', is there a space
around Glorantha which can be traversed to find other worlds or is
it a totally self-contained universe? If the latter what about
multiverses, dimensional gates. Our gaming groups most-of-the-time
GM is really hot on a moorcock-esque multiverse, so there have been
lot of planar hops in and out of Glorantha. Me I'm ambivalent about
that kind of stuff for Glorantha. Has anyone else speculated on
this?
____
Joerg on Teshnos:
>According to the Trollpak maps of 1st and 2nd Age, none, except maybe
>a few Sofali Islands. Teshnos seems to be the epitome of conservativism,
>ven the dwarfs there are more conservative than elsewhere, and follow
>Octomonism. I guess that if chaos had invaded here, it would have shed
>its chaotic features and gone back to the pre-darkness state of
>non-existance .
Hmm, what about this. The forces responsible for the cataclysms
took a look at Teshnos and thought 'naah, these guys are so lazy
and philosophical that they won't notice if we mess up their lands,
and that's no fun, so we leave them for now'. :-)
>It is almost hard to believe that a visit in Teshnos sparked off the
>Yelmalio vs Elmal schism.
It did?
_____
I haven't followed the British/American/Australian debate, but I
suddenly remember a quote by someone on the lines of:
'British and Americans, two people divided by a common language'
_____
I'm so tough:
- That I wear my cult runes to Storm Bull funerals
(Rotgob, Mallia shaman)
/Nils W
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: so ...
Message-ID: <9407041834.AA03960@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 4 Jul 94 06:34:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5017
David Gadbois asks:
>Do you have any more info on the Star Captains? The only mentions I
>recall of them are in Nomad Gods and in tGRAoY
They are the guardians of the stars, which are, of course,
fortresses surrounding holes in the sky, through which the ether
shines brightly. A individual Star Captain is like unto a hero or
gigantic monster in toughness -- beyond the scope of normal RQ.
Paul Reilly responds to my statement:
>> If Loskalm was on Earth, not one female knight would exist.
>Reasoning? Perhaps because they are more conformist than Medieval
>France, which had a few
I scoffingly disbelieve in the existence of "a few" medieval
French female knights. Maybe over the entire period of the Middle
Ages, which would mean that in any given year there woudl be, on the
average .... zero. Just the same number as we find in Spain, England,
and other areas.
My point was not that there weren't female knights on Earth
(though they were obviously scarce), but that this should not prevent
us from having them in Loskalm.
Joerg
>According to popular theory and a few facts, the Theyalans absorbed
> Hsunchen cultures.
This was probably made easier by the fact that the Theist
culture doesn't really handle the Hsunchen mythology effectively. The
Hsunchen were presented with an obvious choice -- either their
ancestors were right, or the Thelayans are right. And the Theyalans
have better magic, metal, are more numerous, etc. So you end up with
absorption and extinction of the Hsunchen where they meet the
Theyalans.
I still don't agree that the Praxians stem from Hsunchen, nor
do I admit that ALL primitive Gloranthans were Hsunchen.
Stephen Stair:
> In Dorastor, one of the Hellwood Elves is listed as being an
>initiate of Tyram. Who is Tyram?
The Chaos God who led the invasion of the Sky. It was pretty
much defeated by the Star Captains, but the God is still around..