Bell Digest v940707p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 07 Jul 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


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From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 05 Jul 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <9407060949.AA03772@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 6 Jul 94 10:49:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5048


____________
Barron Chugg wonders:

>  Are you sure you and Cullen are seperate people?  

Geez, now I know how Gon Orta feels.

Excuse me while a speak with my alter ego...

______
Cullen:

>The god is one with the path, but the paths are also one
>with the god, and are therefore in some sense conscious.

My view is that a God's "consciousness" comes through his cult. Actions
initiated by the god independently of the cult are simply the natural activity
of the domain he represents (eg. storms for Orlanth); such actions could
be seen as "subconscious" behaviour of the God (if you want to anthropomorphise
to that extent). The paths themselves are about as conscious as a book or
a relational database IMHO.

>CW> My theory is that anyone who does anything New leaves a small etching
>CW> on the godplane. If you do something so great that other people want
>
>Does this include actions taken off the godplane?

Yes and no. It depends how far-removed you think the mundane plane is from
the GP. Essentially my current thinking (influenced by others on the net)
is that any mundane action is reflected in the godplane. Whenever you do First 
Aid you're following the healing path; whenever you tell a lie you're following
the path of illusion. The gods did things for the First Time; and people who 
specialise in following the paths of the gods (by copying the activities of
the god; repeating the method of the First Time; and thus preserving the 
knowledge) comprise the cult. This includes mundane activities as well as 
magical ones.

If you were to do something radically New then it would provide the potential
for a new path: whether you discover how to spin cotton; or make
gunpowder or whatever. If people think the idea is great enough; and are
prepared to dedicate themselves to perpetuate the knowledge; and specialise
in the skills required, then a new path may be formed.

If you acted in the name of a God then this path might be added to your god's 
paths; on the other hand, maybe a new hero-cult might form, in which case
there is potential for a new god (if you keep doing novel things).

Most of the fundamental stuff has been done already and is hence attributed
to some god or other. I guess, if you wanted to run a campaign where
Ascension To Godhood was the theme (:-)) then you should pick some Brand New
idea (which doesn't exist in Glorantha yet and which would have great impact
on society); let the players HQ to discover/invent it; and allow a cult to
form. The hard part would be choosing "something new" without being cheesily
anachronistic. Suggestions?

>I would say it is a little more complex than that, and involves the hero
>actively trying to create a set of paths on the Rune/Hero/God-plane.

I think this is the modern way of working. This is what that Arkat chap
would do. But I don't think all the old paths were layed down on purpose.
The gods just did stuff and folks copied it - whether it was deliberate or
not. Humakt killed; a bunch of folk thought killing was a useful thing;
hence a cult of killers formed. Did Humakt *want* to be Death? I'm not sure.


>I wonder if there aren't rituals (initiations come to
>mind) in which the aspirant doesn't know what is expected of him, and if
>he reacts in some way that the god would not...
>he gets kicked out/killed/whatever?

Could be. This would help to encourage "natural" initiates who think like their
god. But it wouldn't completely screen-out the cynics who think
"Well, I wouldn't normally do this,
but it's what I *should* do 'cos it's what god would do;
and since this is an initiation it's probably Right".
I agree that deadly initiation rites are sure to discourage cynics.

___
CW.

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From: JAJ@roadnet.ups.com (JAJ)
Subject: Unsub
Message-ID: <9407061350.AA29167@news.roadnet.ups.com>
Date: 6 Jul 94 07:47:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5049

Henk:

Unsub JAJ@Roadnet.ups.com

Thanks,
Andy Joy


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From: gilliam@zen.wes.army.mil (David Gilliam)
Subject: unsub rq-daily gilliam@zen.wes.army.mil
Message-ID: <9407061444.AA20692@zen.WES.ARMY.MIL>
Date: 6 Jul 94 14:44:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5050

unsub rq-daily gilliam@zen.wes.army.mil
unsub rq-digest gilliam@zen.wes.army.mil
unsubscribe


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From: brandon@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov (Brandon Brylawski)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 06 Jul 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <9407061534.AA10642@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov>
Date: 6 Jul 94 15:34:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5051


Regarding women in Glorantha, I thought I might tell about the group I 
currently GM for.

The campaign is set in Prax, centering around Sun County and Pavis. Three of the
characters are men : one is an ex-templar farmer forced to take up adventuring 
by disaster, one is an Orlanthi exile from Sartar hired/impressed into service
by a Sun County official, and one is a Bison shaman, without a bison (long 
story) that the group has picked up along the way. The other three characters
are females:

Sister Alfreya is a Chalana Arroy from Boldhome, an older (42 years old)
initiate who has traveled to Sun County because of a dream.  She has a mouth 
on her that just won't quit and a very sarcastic and sardonic tonuge, something 
that is pretty irritating to the macho males around, particularly the 
Yelmalion group leader Sunny. On the other hand, she is a woman in a woman's
role; furthermore, Chalana Arroy is really a Solar goddess (everyone in Sun
County knows that!), even if she was disobedient and stayed on Glorantha
to heal the injured while all of Yelm`s other loyal retainers (save Yelmalio) 
tropped off behind their leader to Hell.

Valera Hopsturner is a diminutive Lhankor Mhy from Nochet (!) who has been
bitten by the archaeology bug and wants to go see the Rubble with her own eyes.
The Sun Domers are, by and large, confused by her. However, as long as she 
keeps covered up and doesn't talk much, she's not too offensive, just 
supremely foreign and strange, especially with the beard.

The third character needs an introduction.
Darius Sunspear is a retired Templar sergeant of incredibly distinguished 
service who was forced to retire when a Troll maul crushed his right hip and
it did not heal properly: he can still walk, but cannot march in step. He
went back to his family estate near the town of Yellowrock and soon became 
headman due to his natural talent for leadership and determination. Sometimes
he would receive visits from important officials in the Sun Dome, men who had
been soldiers in his regiment and then gone on to higher rank and office.
He took a wife, whom he loved dearly, and settled down to live the Good Life.
In time, his wife bore him three sons, Yelm be praised! But Fate was cruel, and
each time the couple drank bitter waters, for no son lived to become a man.
His wife then bore a fourth child, a daughter, and died in the birthing
thereof. Sunspear's heart was broken, and he never took another wife. What
now would become of all of his dreams of rearing a fine, strong boy to take his
place in the Templars and carry on the family tradition of soldiery and service?
Would he die an embittered old man, with none to carry on his name? No!!
By all the Gods, By the Sky Dome and the Heavenly Sphere, if Holy Father Yelm
had given him only a daughter, then she would be the son that he had wanted,
and the warrior to carry his spear.

To the dismay of many and the shame of some, upon his daughter's eighth birthday
Sunspear gave her a blunt spear and a wicker shield and began her training as
a fighter. He trained her harder than he would have trained any boy, for
he knew that she would have to be twice as good to pass the tests as any man,
and twice as tough to withstand the hatred that society would inflict upon her.
Otehrs spoke to Darius, to dissuade him from this perversion, but he was
a lonely and determined man with the unshakeable strength that comes from
command, and their efforts came to naught. She grew up knowing nothing but 
fighting and training and the endurance of pain and discomfort without 
complaint, and had none of the joys of children past the age of eight.
At fourteen, Darius presented her to the priest for initiation into the cult
of Yelmalio. The priest demurred, and would have refused. But the elder Sunspear
recalled when the Priest had been a simple private in the Templars and
would have been killed on campaign had it not been for his Sergeant's timely
action in rallying the troop; and the priest could not refuse. But he did set
her a series of fierce tests, much more stringent than any which young men
had to pass: she passed them, every one, without pride and without difficulty.
And lo! Yelmalio did accept her, and did grant to her a great boon and extract
from her a great oath. And the Priest there had to acknowledge her as a 
true follower of the Light. But he warned : "She may have met acceptance of
the Lord of Light, but be warned that she may never meet acceptance of those
around her, who will see her woman's form and hate her for not knowing her 
proper role. She will not even have the comfort of the followers of Yelorna,
who at least have sisters around them who understand their strange and warlike
ways. She walks her path alone." And so it has been. Her name is Andromache.



Brandon

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From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: The Luxites
Message-ID: <9407061543.AA12344@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 6 Jul 94 05:43:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5052



There are some other details about the Luxites that didn't make it into GRoY,
you know:

They all live in a celestial city called "Luxor", which has many ornate
temples.

They have a queen, who is known alternatively as "Luxie", "Lucie", or "Lucy".
Her purity is such that she never descends to the earth, and she is the
patroness of all gemstones that refract light in a pure way.  Her especial
favorite is the diamond.  Thus she is referred to as:


The great Queen of the Luxites:  Lucy, in the sky, with diamonds.


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From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 06 Jul 1994
Message-ID: <9407061721.AA08048@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 6 Jul 94 05:21:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5053

Paul Reilly says:
>I doubt that quoting medieval chronicles would change your opinion.
	Not so, Paul. You wound me. I base my opinion on my previous  
readings and studies, not on some theoretical basis. If you can quote  
chapter and verse on female warriors, that's added to my basis for  
knowledge, and my opinion is altered. 


>In any case my claim is not that female knights existed in real
>life but that period historians record their existence
	List your examples o' female knights. I've done some reading  
in medieval manuscripts myself, though doubtless not as much as you.  
Also, my own readings are admittedly mostly medieval fiction (like  
the Vulgate). But I have read enough to know that Joan of Arc didn't  
actually fight, though she did wear armor, and got close enough at  
one siege to be injured by a crossbow bolt.
	I'm all ears to hear of them. Also, how many of these cases  
are women who donned armor and weapons for one (1) fight or maybe  
two, because they were besieged in their castle or something? Like  
Molly Pitcher, who's no soldier, but fought in one (1) battle when  
her husband was hit, and has been immortalized in American history  
ever since. 

	If you have examples of women who regularly donned armor and  
fought in battles more than once, I'll be utterly convinced that they  
existed, though no doubt in minute numbers. I can't help but suspect  
that just about every single case of medieval female warriors was  
recorded because of its' unusual nature. 


> Sandy, do you scoff at the existence of female gladiators?
	No, of course not. But the situation is completely different.  
A gladiator provides entertainment for a jaded public. A knight is  
expected to go on campaign, joust, etc. Well, I'll still accept the  
lady knights even if they didn't joust. That would be a bit much to  
expect.

Bryan Maloney:
>Men are warriors, because they're expendible.  Kill a man, and  
>you've just killed a man.  His breeding potential can be replaced by  
>another man and the rate of reproduction doesn't diminish.
	Not strictly true, given that even in polygamous human  
societies 97% of the marriages are monogamous (Actual Statistic).  
Kill a man, and his wife's breeding probably stops. BUT, it's true  
that if he's already had some kids, his death is less traumatic and  
dangerous to the kids' welfare than hers would be. Also, since most  
warriors are young (in their twenties), their living children also  
tend to be quite young, and the mother could not afford to leave them  
to go to battle. 


> in "hunting" society, the women procure most of the food. 

	Yes, but there's more to it even than that. In the spring,  
summer, and fall, the women absolutely provide more than half the  
food. But in winter, one study stated that the male hunters provided  
70% of the food -- the man is still essential to the tribe's  
survival, but only for one period of the year. 


>I'd even venture to say that if anyone "owns" the herds, it would be  
>the WOMEN of Prax, not the men.
	Several times on the Daily I've stated my own (and Greg's)  
opinion that the women own the cows, while the men own the bulls.  
Since there are few bulls in any given herd (like you said, they're  
killed and eaten), the women own most of the property.

Mark Foster sez:
>being a homeless wanderer who kills stuff to get their treasure
>really sucks
	I feel I must defend my campaign, in which every person is a  
homeless wanderer. I can only point out that there's a difference  
between being "a homeless wanderer", and being "a homeless wanderer  
who kills stuff to get their treasure." I strive to make my own  
campaign one of the former rather than one of the latter, and the  
players trade, make friends, explore, etc. And admittedly engage in  
combat, but not outright banditry so far. Not all the members are  
combat-oriented, either. One player is primarily a ship-captain.  
Another is a remarkably ineffective-in-combat sorcerer.

>being a soldier, warrior etc. is only "fun" in movies and games. 

	I agree. But it CAN be fun in movies and games. It doesn't  
even have to be glorified to be enjoyable -- SCHINDLER'S LIST doesn't  
make the Holocaust look like fun, but it's tremendous to watch.  




---------------------

From: DevinC@aol.com
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 04 Jul 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <9407061503.tn60206@aol.com>
Date: 6 Jul 94 19:03:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5054

Devin Cutler here:

David Dunham writes:

">in RQ3 they did away with POW gain rolls for spirit combat.

They did? PB.38 says you get a check any time you overcome MP vs MP."

The exact quote from the PB is:

"When a spell-using adventurer matches magic-points against a target's magic
points on the resistance table......"

This clearly, to my mind, implies that such only happens during spell
casting, as evidenced by the words SPELL-USING and TARGET'S.    

Joerg writes:

"The problem is that if you play by the rules as they are printed (as you 
seem to claim in reply to Alex), you first need to Spelltrade an 
Attack Soul from the nearest Subere priestess to be able to attack the 
damn thing, or an equally hard-to-get-by Command non-cult spell spirit 
to make it attack someone in spirit combat, which it normally wouldn't do.

The spirit magic Control  doesn't help either, because to use this 
you first must battle the damn thing down to zero MP. Only shamans can use 
this damn useless spell effectively, and they have the alternative to 
capture the beaten spirit with their fetch.

I don't say that this is how it should be, but this is how it is."

I noticed this rules problem on the first day that I bought RQ3. When I first
came onto this list, I asked everyone about it, and the replies I received
ranged from:

1) Only shaman can control non-cult spell spirits
2) The rule is broken and spirits can be combatted
3) I fudge this whole rule section

I play that you cast the Control (Species) spell initially, and that spell,
in and of itself, lures the normally reticent spirit into combat.

Otherwise, without non-affiliated spell spirits allowable for capture, I find
the spell choice for many cults (not Lightbringers, who have so many
associated cults, but try Yelmalio or Humakt)to be restricted and boring.

BTW, is the Slow spell MP vs MP on an unwilling target? It certainly doesn't
say so, but it certainly should be, since it is the only Mp vs MP spell for
Wahas and Erithans and is too good a spell otherwise.

In any case, yes Joerg, I DO change the rules on occasion when I really find
them broken...but I try not to if at all possible.

"I think this whole set of spirit combat, spirit spell learning and control 
rules is quite broken."

We are in full agreement.

"Do shrines teach spirit magic? According to the rules, they cannot - 
Spellteaching is a Common Divine spell, and these are available and 
regainable only at Major or Great temples under RQ3. (Magic Book p.29)"

No, the shrine does not have spell teaching, but the Priest who tends the
shrine (a PC) knows the True name of the Bladesharp and knows Summon Spell
Spirit and Control Spell Spirit, so in a sense the shrine to which he is
affiliated teaches that spell.

"A cultist with a number of divine enchantments could be recharged within 
one day if enough Rune Rank cultists take part in refueling the 
enchantments, and enough other cultists show up to provide the flow of 
magic. This would make divine magic much more the communal magic it should 
be, IMO."

I like it.

"Yes there is, especially when regularly using Resurrection: the priest has 
to spirit combat the resurrectee's spirit to force it back."

Not a big deal when, according to a strict interpretation of the rules, the
CA has only to cast (or better yet, have a loyal initiate attendant cast)
Spirit Screen 4 or Spirit Block 1.

There is still some ambiguity re: Resurrection anyways. Does it require an
entire spirit combat (i.e. beat the soul down to zero MP) or merely one roll
as per RQ2?

I run that Resurrection requires 1 roll, which effectively makes Spirit
Screen and Spirit Block useless.

"I think that the disease rules are way too simlicistic, and the stages 
too crass. However, I don't see how disease is easily shaken off."

OK. Page 84 Players Book RQ3 (page numbers from the new one-cover eidtion)
states

"After contracting the disease, the adventurer's player must attempt another
Con roll at every interval specified by the number of failed Con
rolls......If this CON roll succeeds, the adventurer is cured of his illness
and loses no more characteristic points."

So, for a CON 9 Dex 9 person to die of, say, terminal Shakes would require
fail 4 rolls just to get terminal shakes (very unlikely). Then he would lose
1 DEX. Every minute thereafter, he gets another 45% chance to throw off the
disease. To die he would then have to fail EIGHT 45% rolls IN A ROW!!!! Not
bloody likely.

The average person who gets terminal Shakes loses 2 Dex points in 2 minutes
and then shakes off the disease. This is not easily shaken off?

"That "Sartarites all know Spirit Magic, it is cheap to obtain, 
commonplace". To learn spirit magic from a cult draws on the cult's 
potential to cast rune magic. Three Spellteachings for Heal cancel out 
one potential Resurrection. Ok, the Heals in the field may cancel out 
the need for the Resurrection in the first place."

But the rules don't imply this. Let's start again by saying that I am in
agreement that Spirit Magic is probably way too mechanistic in the RQ rules
and way too easy to obtain, and should be more of a mystical, hero questic,
communal affair. Certainly Divine Magic should be moreso. But the rules do
not reflect this, and the rules are where I and a lot of tohers get their
Gloranthan info from. KoS does not , IMO, debunk the RQ rules, it ignores
them. This is not a solution. It merely argues that there IS a desparate need
for a well-though out RQAiG.

The GoG rules state that Spirit Magic costs 45L plus 15L per MP cost. The
cost in RQ3 to summon up spirits is also quite cheap. Ecomonomically, this
low price implies ease of access and ease of use. Supply is large enough to
meet demand. Either that or the info in GoG is highly broken (I'd opt for the
latter, but we have no evidence to support this).

"I doubt this will make these candidates 
very welcome, unless they bring rich gifts. This would make spirit magic 
a status object, since poor cottars or carls cannot afford the gifts 
needed to receive the "free" point of spirit magic every five years, or 
come to that, the trip there and the time off their fields or herd."

Agreed, but the rules should be changed to reflect something like this.

"Taking a look at Sartar, and crunching numbers:

(numbers crunching deleted):

Then it implies that:

1) Spells are a lot less common than even 1 point every five years (and that
rule should be changed) or

2) Priests make up more than 1% of the population

"Do you believe all rumours? Faltikus being an illuminate is a rumour, not 
a fact. Fact is that he tries to keep things civilized, which is a typical 
trait for conservative Thunderous priests, and that to do so, he even 
cooperates with Lunar authorities if this keeps his temple open."

Bah! That scum Faltikus is a proven Lunar bedfellow and worships Gbaji the
Deceiver. My friend Rat tells me so and Rat knows everything! Say, you been
askin a lotta strange questions lately.......

"However, if the ranking Orlanthi really thought Faltikus was a chaos simp, 
why don't they excommunicate him?"

Because I would have to reason that Illuminates being immune to Spirits of
Reprisal are immune to Excommunication.

Barron writes:

"First off to Alex and Devin: Can we step the flames down a little?"

I'll turn my knob down to slow sizzle :-)

 " If
you want to continue the thread, why not just restate the initial positions
and see where you agree rather than disagree.  I'll bet you'd be suprised. "

That's why I'd like to take the thread off line...I have been finding that I
actually end up agreeing or agreeing to disagree with folks offline...and the
name calling goes down quite a bit. Are you game Alex?

Paul writes:

" ????  We had a demonic crow in a flashback, it could not be killed by
any normal means.  What is this demonic crow?"

He is a demon from an excellent article (by Jon Quaife?) in WD which details
some very powerful demons...inclduing Magaera and a Shanasee of Yelm.

Regards

Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com