Bell Digest v940715p2

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 15 Jul 1994, part 2
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Tainted Life Force
Message-ID: 
Date: 14 Jul 94 11:43:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5153

Colin Watson in X-RQ-ID: 5135

> Joerg:
>>Life force is never pure when generated, personality always rubs off 
>>with the MP. As long as the personality attached to the life force isn't 
>>tainted, the life force remains acceptable.

> I'd rather say that the tainted lifeforce (if such exists) would be
> accepted and would tend to temper the deity accordingly. I think the
> attitude and feelings of the worshippers modify the god.

Yes. With tainted I mean holding sentiments contrary to the deity.

That and how worshippers take influence on their deity has been shown 
in the excellent essay by Paul Reilly and Finula McCaul about how Zorak 
Zoran once was an intelligent and cunning deity.

"Andover" in X-RQ-ID: 5148
 
> >From KOS, page 88 (!) (The Gods agreed) "that they would not actively
> intervene in each other's realms except in those ways which they had already 
> done.  They would not individually or consciously alter the world.
> They would not even turn their awareness to it, unless called upon to do so."
> This (Gloranthan) source suggests that Gloranthans have no trouble (or
> at keast some Gloranthans have no trouble!) seeing the Gods as essentially
> passive.  And that they can't even watch TV about Glorantha!

Devin seems to think that the worshippers would call upon the deity to read 
their minds. A strange thing to do, IMO.

> It still
> leaves open the question of how they can react once their awareness is
> "called upon."  "Gaumata's Vision" suggests that they can pass messages
> from one worshipper to another, as does "Rabbit Hat farm." In our gaming,
> we only allow the Gods to respond to requests from worshippers, and limit
> their information to that received from worshippers.

And the information has to be explicitely provided by the worshipper. 
Best way to get the deity's attention is to cast divination and tell 
the deity with the "question". Intense prayer, e.g. in a dying moment, 
might have better chances.

> But we wouldn't allow
> those Cacodemon Ogres to get divine magic unless they were illuminates.  On
> the other hand, they COULD be initiates without illumination: the Gods
> don't check on them as closely as they do those permanently tied to them
> by Rune status.

If someone can be a functioning initiate, he'll be able to gain divine 
magic. Ogres without a chaotic feature and without a Cacoodemon revelation 
could become initiates in whatever cult they choose; only the Orlanthi 
have the condition that no chaos creature may become initiates. Yet the 
child of Asmodea, Lhankor Mhy priestess in Nochet, would have had little 
problem to become a LM initiate, and rise in the hierarchy, had the 
mother suppressed her doubts.


David Dunham in X-RQ-ID: 5150

> Joerg ponders
>>Illuminates might be able to produce untainted life force. Opinions?

> Then illumination might be easier to detect.

Indirectly? Hardly. An initiate simply can suppress some aspects of 
himself when generating life force. And with the cleansing rituals I 
proposed, cleansed life force is what is expected.
-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Vampires
Message-ID: 
Date: 14 Jul 94 12:25:31 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5155

Loren Miller in X-RQ-ID: 5136

> Joerg asks:
>> The question which gets at me is: Where did Vivamort get sorcery?
>> In Godtime, sorcery was the domain of the immortal races: Mostali, Vadeli
>> and Brithini/Malkioni. (The eastern variant is something different IMO.)

> I think you just answered your own question.

> IMHO, it went something like this (and should go into the Creatures
> section if RQ4 is in fact Glorantha based): The Vadeli Prince
> Anagothicus Magic Hat (not his real name, which has been lost) was
> heroquesting for an improved immortality spell, one that would combine
> immortality and invulnerability in the same casting, and went to hell,
> to the place where death was hidden, to find the secret that would
> oppose death, that would make him immune to death's sting. He found it
> but for some reason he could not use it. Even after he stole death for
> Eurmal and Humakt he could not use it.

This story has several logical flaws.

What would he need an immortality spell for, when death had not yet 
entered the world, and age was no problem?

Where did this Vadeli get his Darkness ties Vivamort has?


-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

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From: goroh@fee.unicamp.br (Andre de Oliveira Fernandes)
Subject: What you mean, no Pure Ones?
Message-ID: <199407141450.LAA08160@diamante.fee.unicamp.br>
Date: 14 Jul 94 08:50:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5156


	Well, if the Pure Ones aren't Telmori at all, what are they?

	(at least, that's Sandy oppinion. I'll keep them as they are in
Dorastor. But that's just my Very HO).

	But I'm curious, man. What do you think they are? Illuminated
Telmori ? That would be a nice explanation for beeing not cursed...

	Hell, I'm curious...


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From: DevinC@aol.com
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 14 Jul 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <9407141353.tn414379@aol.com>
Date: 14 Jul 94 17:53:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5157

Devin Cutler here:

Andre writes:

" A lucky shaman would sacrifice
17 of his 18 POW to his fetch and spend the next season Disrupting
birds to get POW rolls (game mechanics... *sigh*)"

POW and skill checks MUST be stressful. Why do so many people keep forgetting
this? Disrupting birds gets you nothing but a bunch of dead birds and perhaps
the emnity of Vrimak!

Regards,

Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com


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From: DevinC@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jim Degon
Message-ID: <9407141353.tn414408@aol.com>
Date: 14 Jul 94 17:53:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5158

Devin Cutler here:

About a month ago I promised Jim Degon (I think that's the right name) I'd
send him my RQ3 character package.

Sorry Jim, but I erased your snail mail address.

Please resend it, as I am ready to mail the package to you.

Regards,

Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com


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From: wire@world.std.com (A Son of the Silent Age)
Subject: Re: Familiars
Message-ID: <199407141921.AA02844@world.std.com>
Date: 14 Jul 94 11:21:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5159

> Kevin Rose writes:
>  OK, Let me be more precise.  No one, in any game I have been involved in
> or have personal knowledge of, has created a familiar.  They have though
> about it and decided that it wasn't worth it.  First you have to learn a
> bunch of create familiar spells and train them up to at least 50%.  Then

Actually, they need only learn the spells: Create Familiar (Characteristic)
is an Enchant ritual, so all the spells are cast at the sorceror's Enchant
skill (which is one reason making a familiar is a test...it's a test of how
good an Enchanter you really are). Also, most people don't learn _all_ of
the spells: as explained below, most of my players only ever learn Create
Familiar (STR), (CON), and (DEX).

> What do they do when they cast Create Familiar, sacrifice a couple of poin
> ts of INT and miss the roll.  "Gee, guess I always wanted to be a
> familiarless 12 INT sorcerer. . .?" 

Dismal results for failure are very much in keeping with my view of sorcery.
But maybe that's just me...*smirk*

> The cheapest ones are Nymphs.  They only cost you SIZ. [deleted]
> Or Vampires.  They only need POW and SIZ.  [deleted]
> After that it gets pretty bad.

Oddly enough, no-one in any RQ games I've ever run has really been into the
"turning ordinary creatures into familiars" trend; they all prefer binding
spirits of some sort into useful objects (staves, rings, whatever) and then
giving them minimal physical stats (the spirit provides INT and POW, and the
object already has SIZ, so the sorceror provides a point each of STR, CON,
and DEX).

> An Ally is free.  It is a significant combat multiplier for the RL, as it
> allows him to cast multiple divine and spirit spells each turn.  A
> sorcerers familiar can't do that.  He can cast spirit magic, but he can't
> know any, as it reduces the amount of INT available to the sorcerer.  And
> he can't cast sorcery as it is all skill based.  And dogs or staves have
> trouble with the mystic words and gestures anyway. 

Actually, there's nothing that says a familiar can't know spirit magic
(though I've never seen one that did); it reduces the _familiar's_ Free INT,
but not the _sorceror's_. It does reduce the number of sorcery spells that
can be kept in the familiar's mind, but it's not a question of can or can't,
more one of whether or not it's worth it for you.

And a familiar can quite definitely cast sorcery; if a spirit (even a
a bound Ally) can cast spirit magic (which technically requires mystic words,
gestures, _and_ a focus), it shouldn't have any trouble with sorcery (which
only has the first two requirements).

> So why build one?

Because if you can get it to work, a familiar is a _very_ powerful asset. If
you screw it up, you're boned, but that's pretty much par for the course for
sorceror characters...

===============================================================================
Douglas .S. Bailey
217 Park Avenue #111					     wire@world.std.com
Worcester, MA  01609-2243 USA
===============================================================================
      it's just for now; it's just for now; even if it makes you happy...

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From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: Orlanth as YHWH
Message-ID: <9407141934.AA10548@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 14 Jul 94 09:34:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5160


Okay, so we have Devin maintaining that Orlanthi is omiscient without actually
being omniscient and omnipotent without being omnipotent.  What is his 
justification?  The fact that Orlanth is able to "manage" his cult and handle
all the storms in the world.


Question:  What evidence is there that Orlanth personally manages every aspect
of his cult?  For all we know, it's a sort of autonomic function of godhood
that a deity can intervene in if he so wishes, kind of like breathing or
having to piss.  Can it be proven, objectively, that this is not the
case?

Question:  How do we know that Orlanth handles ALL the weather in Glorantha?
   The only "information" we have for that is probably Orlanthi cult propaganda
   anyway.

Question:  What connection does Orlanth's ability with storm and weather, even
   if it is pan-Gloranthan, have to do with omniscience in other areas?  Maybe
   his ability to handle storms has to do with him being a STORM GOD!  Thus,
   if you ask the question:  "Was there rain in Carmania yesterday?" in a 
   Divination, I'd wager that you'll get something with the detail of a
   US Weather Service report.  But if you ask the question "Who is devout and
   not in this village?", you'll probably get something like "The words of
   a man's heart are written in his hands."--i.e.  "Look at what they're doing,
   not at what they're saying."
 
   I would wager, however, that the Danfive Xaron cult could get a pretty near
   to 90% efficiency on casting a Divination to determine general devoutness.

Orlanth can answer weather questions 100% of the time.  This is because he
is the big weather god.  That doesn't necessarily mean he's any damn good
at anything else.

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From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172)
Subject: familiars
Message-ID: <01HEPAHD792EQZG46P@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: 14 Jul 94 10:44:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5161

- Kevin Rose, I believe, asked about sorcerors creating familiars in 
campaigns

In my Imther campaign, one of my players runs a Carmanian sorceress.  
She created a familiar out of a shadow cat, adding to its INT and SIZ.  
I believe she only gave up 1 pt of INT, so her intelligence is fine and 
the cat is not bright, but can perform basic tasks.  She did reduce her 
SIZ to 5 and increased the cat's SIZ to 10 (nice kitty!), but that's 
worked out too since her magic is much less conspicuous and she can 
sneak around very well.  Of course, the shadow cat, even with the raised 
SIZ, has no problems sneaking around either.  I don't believe the player 
or the character regret having the familiar around.

And I don't believe that an Allied Spirit is "free".  They usually have 
a very distinct personality (or so I've played them) and they are almost 
always more devout than the person who has the spirit.  The ally does 
not always do what the character wants it to do (at least in my games).  
There was an old article in Wyrms Footnotes about Aliied Spirits 
misbehaving, too, that seems appropriate in this context.

--Harald



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From: WALLMAN@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU (Close friend of Little Elvis)
Subject: truth=illusion || illusion=truth
Message-ID: <01HEPAOSQ43M0073A0@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU>
Date: 14 Jul 94 11:07:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5162

Sandy:
|> In Glorantha, Illusion is reality. [...] This is  
|> one of the basic principles of Glorantha, and has many philosophic  
|> and cultural implications. 
Alex:
|You Evil RQ2 Determinist, Sandy.  I concur that Gloranthan illusions can't
|be "disbelieved" or other such solipsistic DnDisms, and are at least
|somewhat objective phenomena.  But I snerk airily at the idea of Illusions
|Are Real as a One True Gloranthan Fact.  As has been demonstrated by Jonas

A long time ago in my campaign there was a person who was an illusion.
He was created a long time ago, and the magic that created him had
forgotten to uncreate him.  He led a sad life because he he knew his
origin and was plagued by constant uncertainties of his own and all reality.
He sometimes thought of seeking out a great magician who could dispel
him, but that always sent him off pondering the possiblities of an
afterlife for a non-existent soul.  Hearing real people arguing about truth
and illusion made him angry.  

But I have too many gloomy intellectuals in my campaigns.  I even made
the Jolanti intellectuals (the Aldryami would not give them substandard
intelligence, would they?).  

Ed						When to the Gloranthan
Wallman						Magic:TG cards come out?

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From: mcrowne@cix.compulink.co.uk (Mark Crowne)
Subject: More More Babeester Gor!
Message-ID: 
Date: 14 Jul 94 22:08:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5163

Mark Crowne here, listening and inwardly digesting for the last 9 months.

From: Urox@aol.com - Re. the story of Megaera, Babeester Gori

Thanks a lot for this, it was most entertaining. I have passed it on to one
of my players who is intending to create a Babeester Gor worshipping PC.

Does anyone out there have a "What the Priest Says..." write up for Babeester 
Gor that they might be willing to post? Or maybe even a more detailed write 
up than the GoG one?

I suppose that if there isn't one then maybe its down to me to post one...?

Keep up the good work everyone!



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From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
Subject: Couple of Replies
Message-ID: <940714180055362@thuemmel.com>
Date: 15 Jul 94 02:35:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5164

Nils in X-RQ-ID: 5074
N> The Fundaments are easy to grasp because they

Why not Fundamentals?

I also had the idea of making the forces
equivalent to the parts of mind.

N> The first Force is Passion {fertility and death}.

This one is good. (Or the body?)

N> The second Force is Conscience {truth and illusion}.

Memory and/or Thought? (Perceptions?)

N> The third Force is Ambition {movement and stasis}.

Will.  (Sensation?)

N> The fourth force is Temperance {harmony and disorder}.

The portion of mind that sees patterns? (no good name)
It could be that the Eastern view of mind has a special name for this
that won't translate readily (like the fourth skhandha, sankhara).
systemizing intelligence maybe? (Sakhara?)

N> The fifth force is Hope {luck and fate}.

Spirit or something similar?  Consciousness?

Some of this is related to the 5 Skandhas:
Body, Sensation, Perception, Sankhara, Conscioussness.
where snakhara is something like tendencies or dispositions.

If you like this idea, use it otherwise just ignore it. :-)
______________________
Joerg in X-RQ-ID: 5120
J> Life force is never pure when generated, personality always rubs off
[...]
J> Illuminates might be able to produce untainted life force. Opinions?

I wonder if this has anything to do with Sence Chaos and why it doesn't
work on illuminates?

J> And one preliminary step in important rituals will be the ritual
J> cleansing of the participants - in Orlanthi ceremonies very minor
J> variations of either the Baths of Nelat or the Flame of Ehilm, like
J> having to pass through a burning doorframe erected outside the
J> sanctified area, or to ritually wet your brow with water from some
J> special container.

How about a full body baptism/bath arnagement?  I doubt those barbarians
take regular baths.... I wonder if they have superstitions about taking
the bath (of Nelat)?

    "My 2nd cousin says he heard about a guy who took The Bath and
    died; Later it was discovered he was [cheating on his wife |
        a thief | a murderer | a Lunar Spy (pick one or more)]."

J> These ceremonial preparations also clear the mind of the worshipper,
J> they are an important magical ritual which makes it possible for the
J> initiates to participate in the real part of the worship ceremony.

I wonder if there isn't some ritual that is regarded as openings one's
eyes to the realm of the gods (Spirit sight type of thing).  This would
be for the ritual only and would be administered to initiates.  Thus
they would be able to more fully participate in the ritual.

J> One side effect of these rituals is to put people into the right
J> frame of mind; they are similar in nature to Demoralize or Fanaticism
J> in that they produce a state of mind not naturally attainable.

These steps might also be necessary for preparations for regaining
spells, another subject we know too little about...

I wonder if keeping POW at 18 ought to be linked to regining spells?

    GM: "Well, you used that spell so its gone."

    PLAYER: "But its a reusable spell!"

    GM: "Not if your POW is below 18."

    PLAYER: "Ack, etc..."

Just a thought,

Cullen

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From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
Subject: Divine Knowlege, Lack of
Message-ID: <940714180100365@thuemmel.com>
Date: 15 Jul 94 06:02:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5165

Devin in X-RQ-ID: 5142
D> I seem to remember an old WF that stated that gods do know the minds
D> of their Runelevel worshippers. I think it may have been in the same
D> issue that spoke of DI and Divination.

Yes, there was, WF 12 pp. 19-21 and I quote:

" ...
  Priests and Lords capable of giving information to their god, while
  living, but must spend time doing so. This is one of the things which
  these temple employees do in the 90% of their time that they spend in
  the temple.  This does not mean that the god can tell one worshipper
  what another Rune Lord or Rune Priest of the same cult is thinking.
  The individual is inviolate in this respect.  The god is incapable of
  invading a person's mind.  The knowlege which the Rune Lords and Rune
  Priests give to the god must be volenteered by the Rune level.  It is
  possible to keep private thoughts private from the god.  It is not
  possible to keep one's thoughts _about_ the god private, for positive
  or negative.  A diety will know when a Rune Master losses faith, plots
  against him, or whatever.
     Initiates are accepted into the fold of their god's power but
  are not significant enough to be able to transmit specific information
  to the god.  When they die their individuality, knowlege, experience,
  and reality dies with them, absorbed into  whatever  world  of death
  the god guarantees, but without passing the data onward.
  ..."
                           - Divination and Divine intervention
                           By Greg Stafford p 19. (c) 1981 Chaosium.

This should help narrow the focus of the debate anyway...
_____________________________
Colin Watson in X-RQ-ID: 5135
C> I'd rather say that the tainted lifeforce (if such exists) would be
C> accepted and would tend to temper the deity accordingly. I think the
C> attitude and feelings of the worshippers modify the god.

This is an interesting idea.  Are the gods slowly being poisoned by ogre
worshipers?
_______________________________
James Frusetta in X-RQ-ID: 5145
J> IMHO, there does seem to be more "proof" that gods exist in
J> Glorantha, certainly for some groups.   Trolls, elves, Daka Fals,
J> Broos, scorpion men all...

Only one of these groups is human, I note.  Also the question of whether
one's ancestors exist isn't the problem.  The problem is how do you tell
a god from a big powerful spirit?  What makes one big powerful spirit
worthy of worhip as a god, and others not worthy?

J> the majority of worshippers will "believe," at the very least, in the
J> protection Orlanth provides whether or not they believe in specific
J> myths or whatnot.

Yes, but this is not the same as devoutness.  Devin has agreed (in
off-the-digest correspondence) to a definition like:  'Always doing what
you percieve your god wants you to do' is 100% devoutness.

Of course you belive the spells work, so what?  This doesn't mean you
are truely devouted to the god.

J> Finally, there's the question of divine retribution.  Whether or not,

That is the big spirit sending little spirits or people after you?  What
is so divine about that?  Anyone who can command a spirit can do the
first.  Anyone with powerful friends can do the latter.

J> Can an illuminate hero, or a large enough group of illuminates,
J> change religious practices in a geographical area?  I.e., if enough
J> humakti decide death is shaped like a spear (or something) can they
J> literally change the cult strictures and _get away with it_?

Yes I would think this would be possible, although a few heroquests
might be needed to create nes paths/spells.

J> (Without having outraged humakt send cultists, or cut off power for
J> rune magics, etc.) I raise this because I'm curious what mechanisms
J> exist to allow deviation within gloranthan-wide cults...

Well, I think something as radical as Hummak the spear would get noticed
by any visiting Humakt the Sword worshippers, and I imagine a holy war
might happen.  Although I'm not sure who would destroy a Kalona Aree the
healing warrior cult, seeing as how Chalana Arroys are pacifistic...  So
I would assume there must be a limit to how much distortion is possible.

Cullen