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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 18 Jul 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
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---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Devoutness - I'll try to cut it short...
Message-ID:
Date: 16 Jul 94 15:04:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5185
Devin Cutler in X-RQ-ID: 5172
> 'Tis only the beginning, dear Joerg :-)
What do you other readers of the digest feel? May I take up this
challenge here? I write LONG articles when so challenged, so tell me
if this offends, and I'll be back on private communication with Devin.
This one will go out regardless...
Divination:
Devin's concept of this spell reminds me of
telnet Orlanth@Middle.Air.Glo
with an interactive database on the other end.
> when someone casts Divination and asks Orlanth "Orlanth, what took place just
> south of Pairing Stone three days ago?" I would expect that he usually gets a
> correct answer.
I'd expect the answer "What interest is this for you, puny mortal? Go,
find out yourself, don't bother me!" and a healthy dose of Impests.
Divinations like this are abusive, and not covered by the spell. I quote:
"The air god will know IN A GENERAL FASHION about events occurring in the
air" (Magic Book p.24, emphasis mine)
> Otherwise, might as well toss Divination, as the
> answer most lkely to be gotten is "I don't know, I was looking elsewhere at
> that moment"
Exactly the right attitude. Mundane events aren't the interest of deities,
so why the Hellcrack should they concern themselves with such?
Divine Mind Police:
> No, no,no,no reading minds UNBIDDEN is the province of a very few Truth
> Deities.
Reading minds in general. All the other things are _communication_, i.e.
the provider of the info actively offers these, not the requester dumping
memory.
> "What the gods feed on, aren't intellectual processes (those mentioned above
> excepted), but the life-force ridden emotions. These are what they
> understand, and what they want."
> Betrayal is often an emotional process.
Outright betrayal, yes. Cunning manipulation, not at all, and cunning
manipulation is the province of the bad guys in the cult. These bad
guys obey the deities formulated will to the letter, and in communication
with the deity give their ample proof of these actions, while they
abuse cult mechanics to further their own goals in the name of the
deity.
Faltikus the Good needn't be an illuminate. He can boast to his deity
that he leads one of the very few Orlanth temples officially open in
defiance of Lunar laws, and prove that he is the last bastion of
Orlanth worship in a world where the Lunars suppress everything that
is good.
> I think the deity quickly checks anyone for suspicious emotions,
> then investigates further those who don't pass muster.
This would violate the compromise, and is beyond the powers of most
deities. Those deities who have the power to do so (notably Lhankor
Mhy) seem to rely on the assumption that since the worshippers know
they can do these things, they won't dare. How else do you explain all
the famous Lhankor Mhy traitors?
> I agree that worshippers DO give something to their god, and I agree that
> these things are the two things you mention. However, I do not believe that
> that it is an even exchange.
Neither do I. The gods are on the receiving end.
> I believe that what the gods give to their
> worshippers, by direct means (like DI or Divine Magic) and by indirect means
> (e.g. Yelm gives sunlight) far outweighs what the gods get in return.
This is where we differ radically. You say Yelm gives the sunlight to
Glorantha, I say Yelm profits from the sun shedding light on Glorantha.
And he isn't the only one - other sun gods and sky gods profit from this
fact as well, although to a lesser degree. Yelm, Yu-Kargzant, Ehilm, Sun
Dragon, Somash and Elmal profit quite directly from this elemental power,
and Yelm as the owner of the Secret Power of Fire (aka Rune) does so most.
Yes, I propose there are several Sun gods attached to the One Sun of
Glorantha. They are different entities, with varying powers, some (the
Solar powers) overlapping, others being special to one of them (like the
Rebirth myth to Yelm; the other sun gods have different reasons to let
night happen).
The deities need the mundane world to survive; when the mundane world
fails to support them, they wither away.
The mundane world on the other hand only needs the Secret Powers some
deities hold; if these powers could be had without involving the deities
the world would be as well off. Argrath's ritual of the net proves this,
and the Westerners as well as the Easterners have recognized this.
As I said before, the deities can exist in a very limited way without
any worship. In this form they are reduced to the power which distinguishes
them from other Godplane inhabitants, limited spirits like Firshala,
Lightning Boy or many other Praxian spirits. They can gain additional
powers by ganging up and sharing their powers with other deities - the
pantheon effect, with lots of associate magic, the can gain subservient
Godplane entities who provide them with their powers in return for shelter
and participation in their flow of powers - this is generally restricted
to the greater deities, who hold Secret Powers (not limited to owning
one Rune - Kyger Litor and Aldrya have Secret Powers which stem from
crucial combinations of Runes), or they can gain the support of mundane
entities and by their MP feed gain access to the basic powers of the
world, take a share in the Public Domain of Secret Powers available to
all deities which can concentrate enough energy sources to fuel a Great
or Major Temple. (This manifests in their ability to gain access to and
to deal out Common Divine magic.)
> Therefore, the difference in this equation is filled by devotion. The gods
> give out their powers and demand not only MP but devotion as well.
What is devotion to a god, other than the will to give more than to take?
> It seems a bit as if the system you are arguing for places gods more in the
> need of mortals than vice versa. I just do not see the gods as emasculated
> and beholden to mortals in that way.
If they wantto continue to bask in energy, they are. If they are complacent
with the attention they get from the natural forces that feed them, fine
for them. IMO this is the difference between Kolat, who relies solely
on the natural forces of the winds, and Orlanth, who relies heavily on
the support of his culture. The difference makes Orlanth great, but also
vulnerable to the Red Goddess.
J> The worshipper would have to provide this information willingly.
> That is what I have postulated all along.
Not to my reading. In your variant, willingness is compulsory. So much for
free will...
> If he does not, the god will make the initiate inactive. I don't see the
> deities as so beggered for MP that they must plead with their worshippers to
> get it. Maybe a new deity like Firshala must be less picky, but Orlanth can
> certainly afford to make inactive initiates who won't open themselves to him.
No, he cannot. Every initiate he makes inactive further weakens him in his
fight against the Red Goddess, who threatens to rob him off his Secret
Power, the control and possession of the Middle Airs.
The example of Orlanth and the Red Goddess is the most obvious, but
competition for the Secret Powers or at least partial use of them is
fierce among Godplane denizens and mundane competitors like dragons,
wizards and (super)heroes. Ever since Time replaced Creation From the
Void, there is is only so much power to be manipulated, and has to be
shared among all competitors. The deities, lacking free will, can only
hold on the powers they have brought into Time, or which have been given
to them within Time.
> I have trouble with this sort of "fire sale" type situation, where the
> deities need to scrape up every last MP from worshippers. The gods, IMO, can
> afford to be choosy.
Not at all, IMO. They might need to be choosy in order not to lose their
grip on their powers, their identity, but this is assured by the rituals
which their priests enforce.
> If the gods were that desparate for MP, why aren't they competing to give
> their worshippers tons of powers and goodies, which not only increases the
> power of" your worshippers, but gets you a whole bunch of new ones? Why make
> it so hard to become an initiate (i.e. those without parents in the cult must
> pass 3 of 5 skill tests)? Why not welcome in anyone who wants to join the
> cult?
Because the danger of an infection with wrong traits. Your Nazi mind police
deities could take anyone in, and let their priesthood kill off anyone
who doesn't fit their picture, for a better Glorantha. (Look at the Red
Goddess, look at Gbaji.)
> Yes, deities recognize mortal fallibility. And a deity won't care about a
> minor transgresison, other than sending a minor reprisal ro simply informing
> the priest of such minor transgression (if that). It is major stuff, like
> Cacodemons in the Yelmalio service that bother me.
I don't see why. As long as the ogre does obey all cult strictures ("Eat no
meat at all" and "Eat no meat but birds" won't work for ogres, obviously)
and furthers the cause of Yelmalio, I see no problems with ogre
Yelmalians. As long as they eat their victims not on Fireday or in
Fire-season, if they have that geas, they could be exemplary Templars
and highly regarded fighters against the Zorak Zoran cult, for instance.
Their actions could further the cause of Yelmalio much more than taint it.
I think in the Dara Happan Sun Dome cult in the Lunar Empire tame ogres
will have their chance. They're bound to botch it sooner or later, but in
the meantime they can work for the good of their cult.
> Letting traitors gain cult powers is not a mundane concern. It is a highly
> significant concern and likely to get cult relics stolen, altars desecrated,
> and priests assassinated. These are bad for that selfsame community.
Now you get over the top. What if the cult relics are simply used against
a designated foe of the cult, by a cultist who happens to belong to another
cult?
Asassination of priests and desecration of altars is against the interest
of the multiply initiated - why destroy one's own power base, and commit
so blatant sacrilege that all powers painfully earned are made void?
Let's get away from the chaos example, and take a combination not entirely
out of possibilities: an initiate of both Orlanth and Yelmalio. (Such
as a clan elder of the Vantaros tribe, initiate to both Yelmalio as his
cult of choice, and Orlanth Rex as his cult of office.)
This individual woud be able to use Yelmalio cult relics and magics for
Orlanth cult purposes, and vice versa, as long as he doesn't violate any
cult restrictions. In a raid on Snake Pipe Hollow, the Ivory Plinth or
the Skyfall Lake trolls he'd work in the interest of both deities, and
could get the help of both. In a conflict with co-religionists of either
cult in a tribal or clan affair using the divine and spirit magic of the
cult is all right with both deities.
Alternatively take a Yelmalio cum Seven Mothers cultist from the Tarsh
Sun Dome temple (mentioned in CoP). This individual would be an effective
fighter against Storm enemies, where both 7M and Yelmalio interests
coincide, and would still be an able chaos fighter or darkness fighter
even though being somewhat co-religionist.
> OK. WF Issue 12 page 19. "DIVINATION & DIVINE INTERVENTION" by Greg Stafford.
> "The god is incapable of invading a person's mind [d.c. - invading is
> different from being invited in]. The knowledge which the Rune Lords and Rune
> Priests give to the god must be volunteered by the Rune level. It is possible
> to keep private thoughts private from the god."
> So far seems to favour you...but:
> "IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO KEEP ONE'S THOGUHTS ABOUT THE GOD PRIVATE, FOR
> POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE. A deity will know when a Rune Master loses faith, plots
> against him, or whatever"
> Capitalizations are my emphasis.
Obviously.
To plot directly against the deity is one thing, to make oneself the
centrepiece of all worship to the deity is another thing. This is what
Lokamayadon did _before_ he helped create Osentalka, therefore _before_
he became an illuminate.
Still, acting against _his_ interests was to act against the Orlanth
cult's interest since _he_ was the key figure in Orlanth worship, therefore
the defection of the Dragon Pass Orlanthi from the Broken Council could not
be as complete as the trolls' or dragonewts' withdrawal. Lokamayadon
never violated his bond to Orlanth in this project, he stressed the
cooperation with all the word the Compromise brought, and made this aspect
paramount in the outer face of the cult. To attack this aspect was to
attack the cult, however, and could be sensed by Orlanth as emotion of
betrayal. In this way, Orlanth himself reduced his worshippers who defended
the non-official politics, which were in rhyme with his original
intentions, to heretics and blasphemers.
This is how Glorantha works, proven by history.
I never advocated that one could go to a temple and sacrifice for divine
magic with the intention to harm the cult. However, it is possible to
sacrifice for divine magic at a temple and use them in a selfish way,
and to harm people who are not foes of the cult.
Orlanthi can use Lightning in a clan war against Orlanthi. If an Orlanth
initiate who happens to be a 7Mother initiate as well (such as Bolthor
Hairybreeks) uses Orlanth magic to further the Lunar interests which
happen to coincide with his own tribal (Orlanthi) interests against
Orlanthi enemies, this doesn't make this use a sacrilege, but a legitimate
application of the powers Orlanth gave to his followers.
Likewise a 7Mother initiate could be a renowned chaos hunter who destroyed
malevolent chaos wherever he found it, maybe even using chaos powers
himself to do so. Malevolent chaos is fought by the Red Goddess and her
Mothers after all, so he is behaving perfectly well. If he regards a
chaotic sanctioned by an Imperial official as malevolent and kills the
chaotic, he has done so for the good and furtherance of his cult, and won't
have to face any religious reprimands for religious reasons. If the chaotic
was an important Lunar agent, he might suffer similar consequences like
the poor Orlanthi character in MOB's amusing story about the Guided Teleport
reception room. These are inflicted by the priesthood only, _not_ by the
deity.
> It is possible that Greg only thinks RUne levels are subject to the kind of
> scrutiny I am suggesting. I believe that the gods would give a cursory look
> at all Initiates. But in any case, the argument that only Truth Cults can
> know such information is put to paid by Greg's writing.
No. Greg explicitly states that the deity cannot invade the mind of _any_
worshipper, not even Rune levels. _Only Rune levels_ can provide the deity
with direct information via a single prayer; common initiates need either
joint or continued effort to get a message through, unless they use the
Divination spell to tell their deity. The deity can only perceive
information the worshipper actively provides, or when the worshipper
invokes the deity in his thoughts. A casual blaspheming like "Curse
" might earn the blasphemer a slightly negative taint
in the aura, but won't be plotting against the deity. The intention to
assassinate a priest of your deity because he's doing the work of the
deity is sacrilegious, the intention to kill the same priest because he
killed your brother in a raid is a honorable and perfectly all right
plan to the deity, and while it might earn you the retribution of the
mundane organisation of the cult, it shouldn't earn you the enmity of
the deity - unless the priest in question has established his killing
of the brother as necessary for the cult to the deity. The intention
to suppress any worship to the deity is hostile to the deity and will
earn its displeasure; this is what keeps Krogar Wolfhelm from attempting
to close the temple officiated by Faltikus the Good.
> Greg's writing certainly implies that other non-Truth oriented gods CAN read
> the minds and emotions of Rune Levels at teh very least, which is a giant
> step beyond what you have proposed.
Greg states that the deity can read the informations directed to it,
nothing more.
> I choose to carry that step one step
> further, which seems logical IMO.
No. By carrying this further, you violate the delicate balance Greg sought
to maintain.
> The god is especially attuned to thoughts and emotions conerning him. These
> are the only one's the initiate is required to set forth. Greg's writing
> supports this sort of selectiveness.
The initiate is required to _formulate_ these thoughts to the deity. The
emotions are a different matter, but they are a phenomenon tied to the
flow of life-force. If the life force flows into the right direction, no
other emotions will be directed at this time of contact. If the life force
doesn't flow to the deity, the deity will have reason to complain. This
means that if the emotions of the worshipper override his willingness to
donate his life force to the deity.
I asked why the deity should mind-police the initiates.
> Because the Illuminate might be plotting to perform some nefarious deed.
In this case the deity is helpless anyway. Please let's keep out
illuminates for a while, they are an exception to most of the rules.
> "The deity has lost the free will to reject any worshipper who obeys all the
> rules, whatever the worshippers mindset."
> I refuse to believe the deities are hobbled THAT much. I may be swayed to say
> that the gods are nothing but big spirits, but I refuse to believe they are
> nothing but big BOUND spirits.
The gods bound themselves by the most binding oaths to the Compromise. (I
think they swore by Styx...) These oaths are irrevocable, and limit them
in their activities up to this extet that they are committed to accept
whoever fits the criteria for acceptability. The exact nature of these
criteria are defined by the priesthood, not by the deity, and may vary
over time or distance. Lokamayadon managed to raise the criteria to
a limit where everyone but Harmast Barefoot failed, without plotting
against his god in a way the god could have taken offense in.
> "So the god only would sense if the worshipper seriously resented the
> deity? Such a worshipper wouldn't turn up at the service..."
> If I'm a Krarsht worshipper, and I need a Flight Spell (or two) to
> assassinate someone about whom I have a contract, and all I have to do to get
> such a spell is become an Orlanth worshipper and do all of the mumbo-jumbo
> correctly, then why the heck wouldn't I turn up at worship service?
First I need to pass all the preliminary filters of the Orlanth religion,
and I need to avoid outright sacrilege against any of my cults. If I manage
this balance without being illuminated, I can participate in and benefit
of both cults.
> Not so strange if the worshipper IS devoted and has nothing to hide AND wants
> somethign in return from the deity. In this case, what has the worshipper to
> lose?
His free will, and thereby his value to the deity. I regard this complete
dumping of intentions to the deity as an act of extreme zealousness, and
one dangerous to the cult, since all pettyness is forced upon the deity,
all imperfection the worshipper suffers from will be forced upon the
deity. Only deities of forgiveness can cope with this, which is why Xiola
Umbar survived largely unchanged where Zorak Zoran was turned upside down.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: A more Egalitarian Loskalm than what?
Message-ID: <9407160736.AA17503@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 16 Jul 94 07:36:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5181
Michelle Ringo:
> Wizardry, Sorcery, Priesthood would not be gender specific.
I disagree, since the use of significant magic and the holding of religious
office is substantially corrolated in the West, and in Loskalm, qualification
for either require progressing through (some at least notionally) martial
post. Plus of course the holding of religious office is likely to be
restricted to persons of the same gender as the prophets and (majority of
the) saints, since they'd be acting "in their name", in religious services
and otherwise.
> One of the differences in Hrestoli based worship amongst the
> wizards (unlike the Seshnela wizards) is that they "do not
> rail against the common pleasures, nor threaten loss of
> Solace for feeling no guilt over love and hunger". This
> moves further away from a celibate priest/monk approach of
> the Catholic church.
Note that the Rokari, at any rate, don't have celibate priest/monks (since
it's a heriditary function), so this isn't something the Loskalmi have to
"move away from", in Gloranthan terms. There may be some posts which
require this in either sect, but clearly not the vast majority.
> There is not dicta that women can not be members
> of the Order of the Red Garter and the Order of the Swallow.
> Yes, history of the Loskalmi reflect that only men have been
> Kings and Heads of these Orders. Analagously, the USA has
> no prohibition against a woman president, but simply has not
> had one elected to date.
But then the USA doesn't have a (formal) caste or class system. For Loskalm
to "not prohibit" women becoming Kings or Grand Knights, it would have to
specifically include them in the class system. If this were true of all
Loskalmi women, it would, I've already argued, have fairly strange results
for Loskalmi social organisation. It also would imply that the instigators
of the class system "anticipated" progress for women (all the way) through
it, against historical expectations.
On the other hand, I'd not be opposed to the proverbially "odd" woman
joining the Hrestoli class system by special dispensation, or some such.
Probably this would involve leaving the women's "path", remaining unmarried,
and the like. (Roughly what some of my Deluded Critics have proposed for
the Rokari, in fact, arising from their Heretical Views on caste.)
> Nevertheless, at least one side of this
> conflict should be fairly attractive to PCs of both genders.
I'm not sure either side is particularly attractive to either gender, myself.
Depends what one likes, to coin a phrase, though.
Alex.