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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 19 Jul 1994, part 1
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This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
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From: DevinC@aol.com
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 18 Jul 1994, part 4
Message-ID: <9407181535.tn571043@aol.com>
Date: 18 Jul 94 19:35:42 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5211
Devin Cutler here:
Robert writes:
"I thought the reason was: if the Gods give mortals power, they will be able
to
challenge the Gods. Thus, power is only given out when the mortal has proved
themselves - ie. that they will uphold the "ideals" of that particular God."
This supports my argument. Gods will only give power to those who are truly
devoted to them.
"Hmmm, the emnity of Vrimak may be classified as stressful - magpies
divebombing you, lots of sh*t landing on you, hungry vampire bats et al (and
al's brother was et too - his name was Brutus...)"
And angry Vrimak cultists flipping you the bird ;-)
David Dunham writes:
"Of course, devastating a fyrd could be a simple matter of casting
Demoralize on every one of them. Everyone runs and hides, and the fyrd is
devastated as a fighting unit. I think there was an article along these
lines in Wyrm's Footnotes."
WF #7 for those that have 'em. And yes, it also describes an enemy spirit
sneaking into camp the night before a battle, possessing the sergeant of a
group, having him wander off, and then attacking others of the squad as they
go off ot find the sarge. At least, that is how I rememebr it off of the top
of my head.
Cullen writes:
"Why do you expect such a thing after having read (and quoted) the
article in WF 12? The second to last paragraph (on p. 19) makes it
quite clear:"
Because nothing in that quote states that Orlanth see many places at the same
time...it merely states that, having seen something, he cannot divine every
minor detail. I was arguing for the fact that Orlanth can have his awareness
(and or servitor spirits) in many places at the same time (i.e. in many
different HHD ceremonies testing worshippers). Nothing in WF 12 contradicts
this.
If Orlanth were limited in how he could spread his awareness, then you
wouldn't even be able to get the general info as per WF12...you'd get "I
don't know, I was looking at Valind's Glacier at the time"
"The fact that he can't do these
things indicates that the gods don't constantly sense and don't
comprehend what is happening in the world.
This is most likely due to their unchanging nature. I don't think they
understand time except as a kind of abstract idea which they haven't
experienced.."
True, but I feel the whole point of a HHD ceremony is to bring the
worshippers into the realm of gods (or vice versa) and to make the god aware
of the worshippers such that fine detail, et al can be determined by the god.
Orlanth can't tell fine details of the approaching army because his awareness
cannot fully enter the mundane plane (due to the Compromise). But on holy
days during a ritual, the situation is clearly different. The god is brought
into closer contact with the ritual.
"What about Fethul (Yelmalio acolyte) in the Gaumata's vision scenario?
He feels guilty and fearful and is sure he is damned, yet he still leads
the worship services to Yelamlio. Why is it that Yelmalio hasn't
'investigated' his feeling "fearful of blame for his guilt and
complicity" (all this information is on p. 9 of SiP)?
This isn't even a mere initiate... this is an acolyte. So Yelamlio
sends a vision which shows the "view from above" after he happens to
notice the problem. Some years after the problem started..."
Number one, on the face of it, this flies in the face of Stafford's writing
in WF12. Maybe the writers of Gaumata's vision chose to ignore Stafford's
views on the subject. We should ask them. Stafford makes it very clear that a
god CAN divine the intentions of Rune Level worshippers, especially if these
intentions involve the deity in question. This seems to me, to be arguable
only if you want to contradict Greg (not necessarily a bad thing mind you).
Nevertheless, it is possible Yelmalio did not feel that Fethul deserved
punishment.I am at work right now, so I will have to go home and reread the
scenario. I imagine an insane person might be able to confuse a god, and
certainly someone who thought he was doing right would not emanate emotions
of betrayal etc.
" Initiates are accepted into the fold of their god's power but
are not significant enough to be able to transmit specific information
to the god. When they die their individuality, knowledge, experience,
and reality dies with them, absorbed into whatever world of death
the god guarantees, but without passing the data onward.
- Divination and Divine intervention"
First, this deals only with information, not initiates inviting gods to
examine them. The above quote was meant to deal with a situation where an
Initiate of Yelmalio is captured by Zorak Zorani. Yelmalio would probably not
know the Initiate's location nor where he was ambushed (esp if the ambush
ocurred at night).
It is probable that Greg does not believe that Initiates are devoted as I do.
I choose to extend his writing on Rune Levels to the Initiate level as well.
It makes more sense IMO.
"But you are ignoring the fact
that the gods don't understand their worshippers."
I think gods do understand their worshippers. At least their base emotions
like betrayal, fear, awe, passion, devotedness, etc.
" The motivations of individuals are almost always a mystery
to the gods. A Priest of Yelm may have slain someone, but the
best that the god can tell anyone is that fact. If pressed for a
reason they would be most likely to say, "For the good of the
God." They are simply incapable of figuring much else out.
- Divination and Divine intervention
By Greg Stafford p 19. (c) 1981 Chaosium."
Especially if the individual is from another cult. Orlanth is certainly not
going to have a clue why a Yelmic priest slew someone. The example you cite
does not say that the person doing the divination as also a Yelmist.
Gods concern themselves with religious matters. If a politically motivated
slaying ocurred, you are right, Orlanth might not have a clue about what
happened. Orlanth probably doesn't know Politics from Chaos. But if you ask
him why his High Priest sacrificed a lamb instead of a goat this year...he
would be able to tell you.
Joerg writes:
"You still don't get my point, it seems. Only the character who casts
Control Spirit can enter spirit combat with the summoned spell spirit.
This makes Control Spell Spirit the requisitive spell for learning any
spirit magic the cheating way - if you don't have it, no spirit combat
with the summoned entity."
First of, let me try to curtail this thread abit by letting you know that
this all started when I complained that people all seem to get the same
battle magic. Obviously then, I want to have different cults restricted to
different magicks. Thus, for my next campaign (this one is too old to change
the rules all of a sudden) I WILL be restricting people to cult and
associated cult magicks. So, Joerg, I do agree that I have not been playing
by the rules (by accident...the learning of spells section of RQ3 is very
poorly written) and that it has had a detrimental effect on the campaign.
That having been said, just to correct you (because I love doing that :-) ),
the way I have been doing it, the person who summoned the spirit does not
have to be the person who casts the Control spell. The person casting the
control spell does not have to be the one who combats it spiritually. Why?
First because I misinterped the rules. Second, because I viewed the Control
Spell as an invitation to fight. In other words, the person casting the
Control Spell gains enough control upon casting the spell (while the spirit
is still at maximum MP) to order it to fight someone. Until the spirit is
beaten to zero MP, that is the only command it will obey via the control
spell...to fight someone. As an aside, that someone must be willing to fight
the spirit, so control spell spirit cannot be used as an attack spell.
Is this a complete screw up of the rules? Yes! But I wanted toi clarify
exactly how I've been mucking up the RQ3 rules.
I'll consider that I really have no ground to stand on with this thread (and
do not want any ground to stand on anyways) and declare defeat with my tail
between my legs.
"Being "attacked" is the standard situation out in the wilds. Getting rest
is an exception, at least if tried over more than 8 hours."
But Joerg,.the most serious diseases per RQ3 will be thrown off in less than
an hour! The average terminal disease, even if using CON x1%, will be thrown
off in 10 minutes!
"This still makes me one day shaking with fever, the next day as fit as
I'm going to become without magical intervention."
Then, as posted to the net (I forget by who...it was July 18th 1994), have
diseases reduce certain stats and skills and have a recovery time.
"I'm not talking about extra encounters, I'm talking about the difference
a normally annoying single jackal makes to a fit adventurer trying to get
sleep compared to a diseased character unable to fend off a nibble or two.
These harrassments happen all the time, but to the diseased they matter.
I simply think that CON*3 is the standard roll for disease recovery for
a normal disease, under normal conditions. If your players think otherwise
and try to rules lawyer you, don't let them, and play out how their
chances sink with every single horse-fly bite to CON*1. Afterwards,
they'll believe you with CON*3..."
First, Con x3% ain't very sever either. I have terminal whatever. At a Con of
13%, I will make my third roll on average.
Gee, this horrible terminal disease just cost me 3 Con points and had me
bedridden for 3 minutes.
The disease recovery times are so short for serious diseases that rest
becomes short. Throing an encounter in the three minutes to 3 hours someone
has to rest every time (especially when normally encounters occur every 6
hours or so) will reek of GM manipulation to my players.
Again, simply fix the disease rules.
Martin writes:
"This is dangerous, because I nearly fell out of my chair and hurt
myself when I fell asleep reading this blather from both of
y'all. Cut it out, already, or take it to private email, please."
Sorry, can't entertain everyone you know. If my opponents want to take it off
line, fine by me.
Bryan writes:
"Devin, since he knew he couldn't answer my question, merely asked if it
could be proven that he did not. This is a cheap, sleazy trick known as
"feebly attempting to shift burden of proof". Devin is maintaining that
Orlanth, and by implication all Gloranthan deities, micromanage their
cults. Since he made the assertion, the burden of proof lies upon him."
Normally it is a cheap and sleazy trick (but valid nonetheless. However, in a
situation as hypothetical as this one, asking me to prove 100% ANYTHING is
completely ridiculous, and I invite you to prove anything regarding gods and
magic and Glorantha at 100%. THAT is what I was trying to get at. When we
talk about Glorantha and especially areas like how magic works, how gods
think, etc. we are really just putting forth opinions (not fact) and hoping
to pile enough analogies and logic to support our claims. Asking me to prove
100% that Orlanth (a completely imaginary and hypothectial entity whom no one
has ever met) can or can't do anything is pointless.
" I was simply asking Devin to put up or shut up. Prove
to me that he is right about Orlanth and Gloranthan religion.
That's all I want, some proof. If I see some compelling proof, then I'll
agree. Otherwise, it's just like arguing whether or not Papa Smurf likes
mint or strawberry leaves more in his tea. "
Prove anything in Glorantha as fact. Who decides what is Gloranthan fact?
Greg Stafford (apparently not, he's been kiboshed plenty of times). You? I
think not. Me? Wrong again.
Ask me for why I believe something should be a certain way in Glorantha and
I'll tell you. Asking me to prove something cannot happen.
BTW, take it as granted that, unless I am quoting something from a rule book
(e.g. it says in RQ3 that you get +10% for attacking from high ground) that
EVERYTHING i say is IMO. I certainly assume the same for everyone else on the
net.
Regards,
Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com