Bell Digest v940719p2

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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 19 Jul 1994, part 2
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From: DevinC@aol.com
Subject: Devotedness (again)
Message-ID: <9407181612.tn572570@aol.com>
Date: 18 Jul 94 20:12:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5212

Devin Cutler here:

"Joerg appears again to write:

"I'd expect the answer "What interest is this for you, puny mortal? Go, 
find out yourself, don't bother me!" and a healthy dose of Impests.

Divinations like this are abusive, and not covered by the spell. I quote: 
"The air god will know IN A GENERAL FASHION about events occurring in the 
air" (Magic Book p.24, emphasis mine)"

I was assuming that the priest asked for a good reason. I.e. a Priets at
Pairing Stone was attacked by some Chaos and was slain.

"Exactly the right attitude. Mundane events aren't the interest of deities, 
so why the Hellcrack should they concern themselves with such?"

Was postulating that Divinations were only be cast for non-mundane events

"Reading minds in general. All the other things are _communication_, i.e. 
the provider of the info actively offers these, not the requester dumping 
memory."

We seem to be irreconcilable on this point.

"Outright betrayal, yes. Cunning manipulation, not at all, and cunning 
manipulation is the province of the bad guys in the cult. These bad 
guys obey the deities formulated will to the letter, and in communication 
with the deity give their ample proof of these actions, while they 
abuse cult mechanics to further their own goals in the name of the 
deity."

Few people can betray a cult and not have emotions attached to it. Those few
will WIll Powers of superhuman levels fall under the .01% of worshippers who
can deceive the gods. Otehrwise, the emotions may be supressed, but they are
still there.

"Faltikus the Good needn't be an illuminate. He can boast to his deity 
that he leads one of the very few Orlanth temples officially open in 
defiance of Lunar laws, and prove that he is the last bastion of 
Orlanth worship in a world where the Lunars suppress everything that 
is good."

I think Faltikus DOES pretty much need to be Illuminated, or Orlanth simply
believes that having a Storm Temple in pavis, even one run by a jerk like
Falty, is better than having none at all.

"This would violate the compromise, and is beyond the powers of most 
deities. Those deities who have the power to do so (notably Lhankor 
Mhy) seem to rely on the assumption that since the worshippers know 
they can do these things, they won't dare. How else do you explain all 
the famous Lhankor Mhy traitors?"

I don't see how it violates the Compromise, as the god is being asked to
enter the worshipper's soul. Just like in DI, where the worshipper asks the
god to intervene.

Lhankor Mhy traitors are either Illuminates, or are those few persons who can
deceive the gods. After all, how many famous traitors are there compared to
the masses of ordinary worshippers? Probably not more than .01%.

"Neither do I. The gods are on the receiving end."

Then this is probably the crux of our difference.

"This is where we differ radically. You say Yelm gives the sunlight to 
Glorantha, I say Yelm profits from the sun shedding light on Glorantha. 
And he isn't the only one - other sun gods and sky gods profit from this 
fact as well, although to a lesser degree. Yelm, Yu-Kargzant, Ehilm, Sun 
Dragon, Somash and Elmal profit quite directly from this elemental power, 
and Yelm as the owner of the Secret Power of Fire (aka Rune) does so most. 
Yes, I propose there are several Sun gods attached to the One Sun of 
Glorantha. They are different entities, with varying powers, some (the 
Solar powers) overlapping, others being special to one of them (like the 
Rebirth myth to Yelm; the other sun gods have different reasons to let 
night happen)."

And I view the fact that Yelm IS the sun. As usual, our differences can be
traced down to a single very basic interpretation.

"The deities need the mundane world to survive; when the mundane world 
fails to support them, they wither away."

Agreed. I need food to survive, but I don't consider my relationship with
farm chickens or beef cattle to be one where I must kowtow to them.

"What is devotion to a god, other than the will to give more than to take?"

Devoted followers ARE power. They are an asset. Certainly more desirable and
more of an asset than cynical or undevoted worshippers. As a god, I would
prefer them.

" IMO this is the difference between Kolat, who relies solely 
on the natural forces of the winds, and Orlanth, who relies heavily on 
the support of his culture. The difference makes Orlanth great, but also 
vulnerable to the Red Goddess."

I believe Orlanth was born great and became more powerful by his many
worshippers. But he earned his worshippers, not vice versa.

"Not to my reading. In your variant, willingness is compulsory. So much for 
free will..."

How is it compulsory? If you go to a petrol station that charges money for
petrol, do you complain about being coerced into paying for gas? No. You can
go to another petrol station or you can get rid of your car. Other stations
might charge more or less, and getting rid of your car has its own advantages
and disadvantages (mostly disads, I would say). Similarly, the worshipper is
not forced to open his soul to, say, orlanth. He can keep it closed and not
get Divine Magic. He can keep it closed and not participate in HHD
ceremonies. He can worship a different god. he can worship no god.
See...lot's of choices.

"No, he cannot. Every initiate he makes inactive further weakens him in his 
fight against the Red Goddess, who threatens to rob him off his Secret 
Power, the control and possession of the Middle Airs."

Orlanth has what, at least 1 million worshippers? Cutting off even 1,000 of
them is not even going to be noticeable, and that would be a phenomonally
high number.

"Because the danger of an infection with wrong traits. Your Nazi mind police 
deities could take anyone in, and let their priesthood kill off anyone 
who doesn't fit their picture, for a better Glorantha. (Look at the Red 
Goddess, look at Gbaji.)"

Can't the priesthood do that anyways, in your Glorantha? Nothing stops the
Priests from being Devotion police anyways. In any case, let's talk degree of
transgression here.

Orlanth is not going to strike down someone who makes minor transgressions.
He will, as I have stated before, punish him in minor ways, like impests etc.
Or the priest will punish him by forcing him to do penance (you must milk the
cows every morning for a season). This would not really lead to the loss of
worshippers.

But as far as Cacodemonists trying to infiltrate the Orlanth cult (somethign
like THAT would involve killing the worshippers), does Orlanth really miss
these guys if they were killed? How many betrayals like this do you think
exists in a cult Joerg? Killing worshippers for anything but major
transgressions is silly.

"I don't see why. As long as the ogre does obey all cult strictures ("Eat no 
meat at all" and "Eat no meat but birds" won't work for ogres, obviously) 
and furthers the cause of Yelmalio, I see no problems with ogre 
Yelmalians. As long as they eat their victims not on Fireday or in 
Fire-season, if they have that geas, they could be exemplary Templars 
and highly regarded fighters against the Zorak Zoran cult, for instance. 
Their actions could further the cause of Yelmalio much more than taint it."

First, because Ogres are tainted by Chaos, and I have to imagine that, just
as if the Ogre in the Garhound contest winning would spell disasted for
Garhound, a Chaos tainted individual partaking in Yelmalian rituals would
pervert them, with results similar to Garhound. Did you see any mention in
Garhound scenario specifying that the Ogre would do horrible things if he
won? No...it was the mere fact that a creature of Chaos became the Champion
of Garhound that screws up the crops.

"I think in the Dara Happan Sun Dome cult in the Lunar Empire tame ogres 
will have their chance. They're bound to botch it sooner or later, but in 
the meantime they can work for the good of their cult."

I don't. Yelmalio hates Chaos This has never been in doubt. If you want to
postulate that Yelmalio (or whomever) as worshipped in the Dara Happan Empire
does not hate Chaos, then fine. The picture you paint of the Ogre is that of
an Ogre devoted to Yelmalio. So wha'ts the problem. Yelmalio (who doesn't
mind Chaos) would love to have this Ogre worshipping him. Unless, of course,
the Ogre scretly hates Yelmalio and is planning to assassinate the High
Priest in the name of Cacodemon and steal the altar relics for the greater
glory of Cacodemon. Then, there is a problem.

"Now you get over the top. What if the cult relics are simply used against 
a designated foe of the cult, by a cultist who happens to belong to another 
cult?"

Then it is up to the god whether he/she/it wants the relics to be used by
that person.

"Asassination of priests and desecration of altars is against the interest 
of the multiply initiated - why destroy one's own power base, and commit 
so blatant sacrilege that all powers painfully earned are made void?"

Joerg, we are talking infiltration here. The Cacodemon Initiate (let's assume
he's human) wants to assassinate a certain Orlanth High priest and steal all
of the magical goodies as a way to gain status amongst his fellow
Cacodemonists and to slay a hated enemy. The Cacodemonist poses as a foreign
farmer, spends a year or two living in the area as a Lay Member, works hard,
is devoted, and evetually becomes an Initiate. Now he gets invited into the
Orlanth High Priest's confidence. He has acces to the temple, even gets
Orlanthi Divine Magic with which to slay the Orlanth High Priest. Serving his
10% Orlanth time as a temple guard (an assignment he personally requested),
he sneaks into the High Priest's room and casts a Lightning Bolt 4 at him.
Zap, the High Priest dies. Orlanth has just killed his own High Priest and
has helped to further Chaos.

"Let's get away from the chaos example, and take a combination not entirely 
out of possibilities: an initiate of both Orlanth and Yelmalio. (Such 
as a clan elder of the Vantaros tribe, initiate to both Yelmalio as his 
cult of choice, and Orlanth Rex as his cult of office.)"

I don't see why the chaos example is out of possibilities. If I was a Chaos
worshipper, you can be damned sure I'd want to infiltrate some of these
Lawful cults and get their neat Divine Magicks as well as infitrating their
power structure. By your reasoning, I can't imagine most major or great
temples not being completely infiltrated and rife with Chaos worshippers (esp
Krarshti) who are doing the rituals properly and therefore getting the POW
gain roll and the Divine Magicks from Lawful Cults.

Secondly, I have no problem with your Orlanth/Yelamalian example as long as
he is truly devoted to both gods and is not using membership in one cult
specifically to betray or harm that cult. I see nothing wrong with
worshipping in mutliple cults.

"To plot directly against the deity is one thing, "

Worshippers do not have to throw themselves body and soul into the service of
their deity. Some worshippers are more devoted than others. This thread
started by my saying that you cannot join a cult intending to betray it and
get away with such for long, so plotting against the cult is the basic
argument point of this thread.

But, worshippers need to genuinely be devoted to their god to some degree.

"to make oneself the 
centrepiece of all worship to the deity is another thing. This is what 
Lokamayadon did _before_ he helped create Osentalka, therefore _before_ 
he became an illuminate."

The real question is, did Loky believe he was doing good or not? I side with
others on the net who say that as long as the sorshipper thinks he is doing
good for the god and the dult, then the god will not be able to punish
him...since the emotions of betrayal et al are not present. If Loky believed
he was serving Orlanth by creating Osentalka, then no problem. If he was
actively betraying Orlanth with mal intent, then he was, I submit,
Illuminated, or able to hide his true intentions from Orlanth in a way most
Gloranthans cannot.

Also,w e do not know for certain when Loky was illuminated. I am of the mind
that Illumination existed before Osentalka was ever created. He merely
institutionalized it.

"To attack this aspect was to 
attack the cult, however, and could be sensed by Orlanth as emotion of 
betrayal. In this way, Orlanth himself reduced his worshippers who defended 
the non-official politics, which were in rhyme with his original 
intentions, to heretics and blasphemers."

This, I don't understand. Can you clarify?

"I never advocated that one could go to a temple and sacrifice for divine 
magic with the intention to harm the cult. However, it is possible to 
sacrifice for divine magic at a temple and use them in a selfish way, 
and to harm people who are not foes of the cult."

You may never have, but other directly did. They had no problem with my
Cacodemon assassin as mentioned above.

I also see no problems with using Divine Magic in a selfish way to harm those
who are not foes of the cult. Never said that Divine Magic couldn't be used
in non-devoted ways..only that you had to be, in some manner, devoted in
general to your god in order to get the Divine Magic in the first place.

And, I don't know if I am of the opinion that, having gained Divine Magic
from, say, Orlanth, Orlanth could stop the casting of such magic if it was in
a way that didn't please him. I would probably have to say no, that this
violates the Compromise, since a bargain between worshipper and god was
already consummated. But then again, many Spirits of Reprisal can drain away
Divine Magic.

"Orlanthi can use Lightning in a clan war against Orlanthi."

First, Orlanth, I believe, encourage clan warfare in order to keep his people
strong.

Second, gods care little if anything for politics.

"If an Orlanth 
initiate who happens to be a 7Mother initiate as well (such as Bolthor 
Hairybreeks) uses Orlanth magic to further the Lunar interests which 
happen to coincide with his own tribal (Orlanthi) interests against 
Orlanthi enemies, this doesn't make this use a sacrilege, but a legitimate 
application of the powers Orlanth gave to his followers."

Agreed, although I would have a real problem with Orlanth allowing a Seven
Mothers Initiate into his fold, since that cult is dedicated to destroying
Orlanth. This would be like Yelamlio allowing Zorak Zorani into his fold.

"Likewise a 7Mother initiate could be a renowned chaos hunter who destroyed 
malevolent chaos wherever he found it, maybe even using chaos powers 
himself to do so. "

Of course she could! No problem with that. As long as she believes she is not
harming her own cult.

"No. Greg explicitly states that the deity cannot invade the mind of _any_ 
worshipper"

Invade means: To enter for conquest or plunder. To encroach upon: Infringe
(Webster's Ninth)

Invade implies without consent. The Initiate invites the god in. No invasion
takes place.

"not even Rune levels."

WF 12 says the god CAN sense betrayals by Rune Levels.

 "Only Rune levels_ can provide the deity 
with direct information via a single prayer; common initiates need either 
joint or continued effort to get a message through, unless they use the 
Divination spell to tell their deity. The deity can only perceive 
information the worshipper actively provides, or when the worshipper 
invokes the deity in his thoughts. A casual blaspheming like "Curse 
 " might earn the blasphemer a slightly negative taint 
in the aura, but won't be plotting against the deity."

Agreed and stated previously.

"The intention to 
assassinate a priest of your deity because he's doing the work of the 
deity is sacrilegious, the intention to kill the same priest because he 
killed your brother in a raid is a honorable and perfectly all right 
plan to the deity,"

Agreed. This falls out of the religious realm and into the socio-political
realm which we both agree the gods don't act upon directly, whetehr from lack
of understanding of such matters or lack of interest in such matters.

 "and while it might earn you the retribution of the 
mundane organisation of the cult, it shouldn't earn you the enmity of 
the deity - unless the priest in question has established his killing 
of the brother as necessary for the cult to the deity."

Or unless the Priest was performing a Holy Ceremony (which the god might then
rule was a desecration fo the sacred ceremony), or if the Priest was
particularly important to some key religious matter (like he was a key
element in a ritual to weaken the Red Goddess). Otherwise, I believe you are
right.

 "The intention 
to suppress any worship to the deity is hostile to the deity and will 
earn its displeasure; this is what keeps Krogar Wolfhelm from attempting 
to close the temple officiated by Faltikus the Good."

It is certainly possible, viz a viz Faltikus, that Orlanth believes that
having any Storm Worship in Pavis, even officiated by Faltikus, is better
than none at all. This would be up tot he deity. That is another way to
explain Falty without Illumination.

"Greg states that the deity can read the informations directed to it, 
nothing more."

No, he specifically states that any deity can detect harmful intent or
betrayal by Rune Levels. That is specific and, IMO, beoynd question per
Greg's article. Of course, you can always believe Greg was full of it when he
wrote that :-)

"No. By carrying this further, you violate the delicate balance Greg sought 
to maintain."

IMO, my extension stops certain abuses that throw things out of balance. (and
I had to laugh at the phrase "delicate balance Greg sought to maintain ;-) )

"In this case the deity is helpless anyway. Please let's keep out 
illuminates for a while, they are an exception to most of the rules."

OK. I said illuminates because I was responding to a specific sentence that
you posted which used Illuminates as an example.

In any case, deities want to police initiates to weed out betrayers, chaos,
et al.

"The gods bound themselves by the most binding oaths to the Compromise. (I 
think they swore by Styx...) These oaths are irrevocable, and limit them 
in their activities up to this extet that they are committed to accept 
whoever fits the criteria for acceptability. The exact nature of these 
criteria are defined by the priesthood, not by the deity, and may vary 
over time or distance"

Well, you can refer me by page to where it says that they are committed to
accept whomever fits the criteria of acceptibility, which is defined by
priesthhod and not deity. This seems to imply that Mr. Krarsht worshipper
with big ambitions could simply join Orlanth, do the mumbo-jumbo required by
the Priesthood, become a High Priest of Orlanth (after, say, 10-15 years of
mumbo-jumbo), start his own temple, define his own acceptance criterion
(which just happen to include Chaos) and found the cult of Orlanth Chaos.
Orlanth will not be able to do anything but sit around and give these guys
his Divine Magic, etc.

The above example is ridiculous but fits your criteria and would seem to be
possible under the terms you have just given. I don't buy it.

"First I need to pass all the preliminary filters of the Orlanth religion, 
and I need to avoid outright sacrilege against any of my cults. If I manage 
this balance without being illuminated, I can participate in and benefit 
of both cults."

Define preliminary filters. In RQ3 I need to merely pass three of 5 skills
and sac 1 POW. On a more cultural level, I probably need to be adopted into a
clan (not too tough given a year or so) and pass an initiation test (which
can't be too tough, since young men age 15-16 do it).

"His free will, and thereby his value to the deity. I regard this complete 
dumping of intentions to the deity as an act of extreme zealousness, and 
one dangerous to the cult, since all pettyness is forced upon the deity, 
all imperfection the worshipper suffers from will be forced upon the 
deity. Only deities of forgiveness can cope with this, which is why Xiola 
Umbar survived largely unchanged where Zorak Zoran was turned upside down."

I don't see the gods as that frail.

Joerg, in the Glorantha that you have described, you must explain to me how
every cult is not infiltrated by Chaos...Chaos worshippers who simply go
through the motions and supress their natural cruelty in order to siphon
benefits form the cults.

Regards,

Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com




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From: mhalttun@freenet.hut.fi (Mikko Halttunen)
Subject: Firshala
Message-ID: <199407180741.KAA00332@freenet.hut.fi>
Date: 18 Jul 94 13:41:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5203



Firshala DI. 
One of my players used that and you can be sure he got very upset when he 
noticed that he had became she. I had quite fun, though.

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From: 937058@edna.cc.swin.edu.au (Peter Linton Tracy)
Subject: RQ Digest Group
Message-ID: 
Date: 19 Jul 94 04:39:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5204


	Subscribe RQ Digest.

		Thankyou

			Peter Tracy	

				937058@edna.cc.swin.edu.au