From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sun, 07 Aug 1994, part 2
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: False Gods
Message-ID:
Date: 6 Aug 94 13:03:20 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5496
Peter Metcalfe in X-RQ-ID: 5449
> I think you are wrong. Worlath is worshipped in Fonrit as a associated cult of
> Tondiji in Gods of Glorantha (Pantheon locations) and in the same sentence it
> mentions Yelm. If Worlath were simply a bad pronouciation then I would have
> thought it said Ehilm.
Not necessarily. The God Learners of Umathela just chose a number of false
gods and imposed them on an unsuspecting populace. They chose Worlath even
though some variation of Orlanth was worshipped elsewhere in Umathela
(although the name indicates that the name of the storm god worshipped by
the "Orlanthi" ferried there might have been Umath; this whole incident
_might_ have made Orlanth the universal name for the ruling storm god).
> Furthermore it is stated in the Western soldiers world
> view in the Players book of G:CotHW that the False Gods were Ice Age westerners
> which would be news to Orlanth (born in Kerofinela) and Yelm (born in heaven).
One important quest for herodom and/or godhood was to attain divine birth.
At least some of these quests were made retrospectively; or they identified
two different myths as "being one, really".
> Furthermore in Trollpak, it talks about the Galalinni (ralian Horse Folk) as
> being a diffirent culture than the Horse nomads of Dara Happa which allowed the
> Second Council to recruit them as trustworthy mercenaries. In Bertalors
> document (elder secrets), it is stated that the Galaninni worshipped Ehilm.
Yes. IMO the Ralian god of the sun, the fiery orb of the sky, and not at
any time the emperor of the world. Those who attended at Greg's reading
at Convulsion might have registered the suggestion that everything
Plentonius said might have been a construct. Maybe Ehilm of East Ralios
was the fiery orb.
Then there was a wizard of one of the elemental schools of sorcery of
the Brithini (still active e.g. at Sog City, I was told, although not
part of the University hierarchy except maybe within the Faculty of
Alchemy) who got so enmeshed in his studies of fire magics that he
finally identified himself with the fiery orb and its entity, and took
its name and character traits. (This is a theist view; the Brithini
would say that all impersonifications of natural forces originally were
sorcerers of their race. For all we know, they might be correct, and
be the diminished descendants of the divine race who forgot about their
origin. But that's a theist view, again.)
> Lastly a distinction is made between the Stutifying magic of the False gods and
> ineffectual magic of the the Pagan Gods in the Western Soldiers outlook. (this
> implies that the false gods teach some type of sorcery but i'm not sure)
Possibly the False Gods allowed their worshippers to use sorcery as
personal magic, although the magic systems fail to classify Gloranthan
magic exactly. (I would prefer if the magic of Glorantha was a continuous
spectrum of magics between a few extremes or defined states, three of
which are the magic systems of the RuneQuest Sight.) However, the Umathela
write-up (from Breakout 34) states that in the False Gods revolt, the
priests of Worlath, Ehilm and Jogrampur displayed effective magic and
destroyed the universty of Yoranday (which had conducted the experiment).
The fact that this came as a surprise shows that they had no effective
magic before (not that effective, it is). I'd say they employed not
Jrusteli sorcery, but something closer to divine magic.
> The Jrusteli in my view began to systematically explore the False Gods and made
> the mistake that False Gods were actually part of the pagans. The end
> result being that their worship survives in Umathela and Fonrit. Zrethus in my
> view is no longer worshipped the RuneQuest Sight is now lost if my assumption
> about Zrethus teaching the RuneQuest Sight is correct. I even thought of a
> False God counterpart to Issaries: His name was Mammon.
I like the way you produce another False God from the Bertalor texts. This
gives us quite a number of False Gods or Western mispronunciations:
The Nine:
Urtiam (->Mostal, maybe rather Acos)
Nakala (->Dame Darkness)
Sramak (->Zaramaka rather than Sramak?)
Gata (->Empress Earth)
Zrethus (->Dayzatar)
Lodril (as fire-god only, not god of Volcanoes)
Uleria
Umath
Ehilm
Plus the False Gods from Umathela and mentioned in the Prosopaedia:
Worlath
Humct
Jogrampur
There are the represenatatives of the elements, with air doubly and
fire/light triply represented (Worlath/Umath, Zrethus/Ehilm/Lodril), and
only a few powers (Urtiam: Stasis; Uleria: Fertility, Humct: Death;
Zrethus: Truth; missing are Disorder, Harmony, Moblity and Illusion,
although Jogrampur is a candidate for the latter).
Did the Westerners have a whole Celestial Court of False Gods?
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Kralori nits picked
Message-ID:
Date: 6 Aug 94 13:51:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5497
Nils Weinander in X-RQ-ID: 5450
> I think this one pf the points where Kralorela is very different from RW
> China. Kralorelans in good standing do not remain in accessible spirit
> form after death. The spirit leaves for Vithela, and thence to worlds
> unknown when the emperor dies. Thus any human spirit encountered is
> really disreputable, perhaps even a deceased Hsunchen (ptoi!).
What about shades of the deceased, not their true spirits, but some
form of awareness?
What about the Buddha-like spirits who abstain from the perfection
they've attained to stay around and help?
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Sandy's replies to me
Message-ID:
Date: 6 Aug 94 13:51:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5498
Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 5452
> Joerg asks:
>>Can you give many more altruistic deities apart from Chalana Arroy.
> Sure. Dormal, Flamal, Storm Bull (who put HIMSELF at risk of
> eternal destruction on behalf of the world), Orlanth (most of whose
> actions since the murder of Yelm have been aimed at helping others --
> his wife, his kin, etc.), Pamalt, Voria, etc.
I don't buy your Storm Bull example. Here we have the berserk who saw
red because there was an enemy threatening to beat him. The risk of
his own destruction isn't a thing a berserk considers, which is what
really makes him so powerful.
Neither the other cases. May I include Malia who cares for the well-being
of Thed's children?
>>Maybe a rhetorical question, but which god of communication did the
>>Fronelans have before Talor arrived?
> Why wouldn't it have been Issaries?
Why would it? Did the Theyalan theist missionaries (I'm not talking about
Aldryami awaskeners) reach Fronela before the Second Council was founded?
>>How long has Issaries been universally accepted? Weren't the God
>>Learners instrumental in spreading Issaries (and Lhankor Mhy and
>>Wachaza) far beyond the original region?
> Certainly. But the spread started in the First Age, with the
> Theyalan Councils. The God Learners simply accelerated a process
> already begun.
Where to?
> I'm sure Issaries was highly disappointed when the God
> Learners were wiped out. Lhankor Mhy, too, since they were so big on
> knowledge.
A nice view. Don't mention it in the Jonstown Library or in what
remains of Slontos, though...
>>> At the Dawn, I believe that Argan Argar
>>> was an obscure troll spirit of little importance.
>>Hardly, when the Only Old One was the ruling deity/avatar of
>>Kethaela.
> I don't think the Only Old One was an Argan Argar avatar
> until many years after the Dawn. The First Council had Xiola Umbar
> on it as the troll representative, not Argan Argar. Later on, when
> the Council went to war against the Dara Happans, Xiola Umbar was
> exchanged for Zorak Zoran(!). It was only later, IMO, that Argan
> Argar came to importance as the bestest troll face to display to the
> outside world.
I am not at all sure that the First Council of Dragon Pass was identical
with the First Council of Kethaela. The passage in RQ Companion which
states that the Dwarf Silver Age Hero of Gemborg and the Only Old One
fought hand-to-hand suggests as much to me.
If not Argan Argar, who was the Darkness deity which enslaved Lodril and
forced him to build the Palace of Black Glass? By 620 this was firmly
Argan Argar (see Jonstown Compendium from Troll Gods).
> Issaries was spread across Genertela during the First Age.
Into Prax, Pent, northern and western Peloria? Into Seshnela? I doubt it.
Into even further away Fronela and Kralorela? Not a real chance, IMO.
> That was hardly obscurity. Xiola Umbar, even now, is not particularly
> "accepted" outside the trolls -- learning that a troll is a Xiola
> Umbar priestess does not guarantee her safety, in the way that a CA
> healer is pretty much protected everywhere. CA was probably spread in
> the First Age, too (though she was already known in Dara Happa, of
> course).
Zorak Zorani eat White Healers like anyone. It would relieve my players
to know that a troll priestess was XU and not KL...
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: shillada@gatwick.Geco-Prakla.slb.com
Subject: What do you call a group of 'Adventurers' ?
Message-ID: <9408061357.AA02937@icarus.gatwick.Geco-Prakla.slb.com>
Date: 6 Aug 94 13:57:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5499
There has been a lot of talk recently about Adventurers and how they fit into society. I take this opportunity to describe a group of pc we used to run.( All the characters were sorcerors, but from a variety of backgrounds).
Aiken was the leader, an initiate of Donadar, and master flute player, with a mean line in bastard sword attack ! Then there was Elfric, an outcast (rootless) elf, who was the most powerful sorceror, and could sing and play pan pipes.
Fender was a lay member of Donadar, and a fair warrior to boot a disillusioned
soldier. Elicia was an exotic dancer and priest of Uleria. There were hangers on aswell, but these characters travelled widely as a bans of performers, whose average playing skills were good (about all were 50% play ***/dance etc). My point is that these people were welcomed _most_ places as entertainers. They also had many offbeat skills/spells - esp illusions.
Answer to the question on subject line :- they were called 'Crossbows 'n' Daisies' :-)
Neil
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: God Learner origin
Message-ID:
Date: 6 Aug 94 14:43:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5500
Henk Langeveld asked in X-RQ-ID: 5468
> What was the origin of the God Learners? I feel uncomfortable
> about them being sorcerors (a.k.a. non-polytheists).
> How did they know about the gods if they did not recognise
> them in the first place...
The whole thing started in Jrustela. Glorantha Book, p.24, says:
"The earliest practitioners were the Seven Explorers, a collection
of wizards and priests of Eradinthanos, a city in Jrustela."
My theory is that the Jrusteli colonists were recruited from the
misfits of Seshnelan society. This included both the most rabid
monotheists (extremists from 3rd century True Hrestol Way adherents)
and the most rabid polytheists (adherents of the Serpent King ways).
They had priests among their number. I guess the thing started like
a debating club for religious and world views, until one of them
invited the rest to really participate in the rites, and then they
did so all way round, and they discovered first commonalities they chose
to pursue.
They wouldn't have been Arkati. Did Nysalor's mission ever reach
Jrustela? I'd expect that the Seshnegi colonies there started already
under the Serpent Kings...
BTW, Sandy, the 1st Age Seshnegi god of Trade and Communication
obviously was Garzeen, who wooed and married King Froalar's daughter.
In Dragon Pass this was Harst, aka Spare Grain. Where is Issaries from?
He and Lhankor Mhy were strangers Orlanth met on his Lightbringers'
Quest...
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: Argrath@aol.com
Subject: This subject no verb.
Message-ID: <9408061048.tn713287@aol.com>
Date: 6 Aug 94 14:48:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5501
Re: Pig style martial arts
Henk asks what this sounds like. Well, I guess their battle
cry is "Sou-eee!"
Sorry, couldn't help myself. Stop me before I'm silly
again.
Loren asked about an RQ newsgroup. I say yes. For one thing,
it'd be easier to find for newbies, and would show people across
the net that RQ isn't quite dead yet.
Peter Metcalfe: thanks for your contributions to Gloranthan slang
and culture. Something for the Permanent File.
I'm surprised no one has had a go at John Hughes's riddles in X-
RQ-ID 5301 (27 July). Granted, they were all real tough for
those of us who haven't lived on the veldt or similar
environments. My semi-guesses are that 1 and 2, about huts, are
about different foods, probably gourds. "The one who fights
slowly" could be a tortoise or sloth. The rest remind me
forcefully of the deep divides between cultures. Maybe the
answers will help us understand Doraddi culture.
--Martin
---------------------
From: 100102.3001@compuserve.com (Peter J. Whitelaw)
Subject: Not missing the Daily
Message-ID: <940806165607_100102.3001_BHJ33-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 6 Aug 94 16:56:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5502
Hi all,
Please disregard my earlier message about not having received todays parts 1&2.
It just happened that I got up early enough today to log on before all the parts
had arrived.
I'll stay in bed longer next week :-)
All the best,
Peter
---------------------
From: igorlick@bnr.ca (ian i. gorlick)
Subject: Ales, a plea for help, and a response to a plea.
Message-ID: <_16578_Sat_Aug__6_15:23:33_1994_@bnr.ca>
Date: 6 Aug 94 11:23:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5503
Concerning the aging of ales:
There once existed in England a custom of laying down a barrel of ale at the
birth of a son and broaching it on the son's 21st birthday. (I have no idea how
often the ale went off in that aging process, but the custom seems to have
endured for a while.) Source: "Inns, Ales, and Drinking Customs of Old England"
first published back in the 1800s but reprinted in the last decade by one of the
heritage presses. (I forget the author's name and the publisher's. Sorry, I am
at work and not in my library.) I recommend it as a useful source of cultural
information about brewing and brewers and beer-drinking, not technical
information about how to make beer.
Info request:
I am trying to get email to John Castelucci of RQAdventures, but my mail is
being returned for a bad address. The one I've got is grendel@sfsuvaxl.sfsu.edu
. Could someone please send me his correct address? Are you out there, John?
Info request:
I have caught part of the debate about saintly magic as proposed by Sandy, but I
have not got his original description of the justification for it and the rules
for using it. I think that I have opinions on the matter but I feel it unfair to
join the debate without having seen this. Could someone please send me a copy?
yet another Info request:
A while back there was some discussion of a different view of sorcery. I think
the term "toe-clipping" got attached to it somehow. Apparently the sorceror
creates some sort of an alter-ego, superficially resembling a shaman's fetch,
and that is the base of his magical power. Could someone please send me the
original description of this? The basic idea sounds interesting.
RE: X-RQ-ID: 5464. "Help a poor newbie!"
I am having a hard time understanding your position. This is probably because I
have been playing RQ in Glorantha for so long that I can't see it from your
newcomer's position. I am afraid that I can not comment on the adventures in RoC
(I haven't read it because someone else in our campaign is planning to run it in
the future). I suspect that Sun County might be more satisfactory to you. You
can base a new group of players inside Sun County as local farmers and
militiamen.
Shadows on the Borderlands contains a truly excellent adventure called
"Gaumata's Vision". I loved this one and it is easy to send a Sun County party
into it. A smart party should not have much combat and there is little treasure.
Strangers in Prax contains extended adventures that put more emphasis on
interacting with strange people. I am particularly looking forward to having my
mob of Sartarite loyalists meet the Lunar Coders, similarly Barran the Monster
Killer should be exasperating for them to deal with.
I fear that the packs that have given me and my group the most fun are no longer
in print. Griffin Mountain and Borderlands have been the backbone of my
campaigns for over a decade. (Griffin Mountain got re-issued as Griffin Island,
but I didn't like most of the changes that I saw.) (Can anybody out there say if
there is any chance of Borderlands being reprinted some day?)
There has been some good stuff come out in Tales of the Reaching Moon. The
latest issue about Pamaltela has a couple adventures that I suspect would
satisfy you.
I fear that many published adventures are likely to suffer from similar
complaints as the RoC adventure. The basic problem is that it is fairly easy to
write adventures that involve combat and looting. Writing good human drama or
suspense stories is very difficult. Much of the best stuff that has happened in
my campaign was spontaneous, the world and the PCs and I just got rolling along.
Stick it out a little longer, as you get to know Glorantha better and start
running the occasional adventure of your own creation, you should come to love
it.
As for herd-men and ducks, I disagree with you. If you don't like ducks (and it
seems that many don't), then just write them out; but I will continue to use
them for comic relief and for tragedy. Herd-men are a potential source of
massive misunderstanding and social conflict. Your players are unlikely to
appreciate that they are animals, they are far more likely to assume that the
morokanth are using evil magic or drugs to destroy the minds of real humans.
Build on that misunderstanding, bring them into conflict with the morokanth over
it. Then let the truth dawn on them. Suddenly the world is a much stranger place
than they thought.
---------------------
From: igorlick@bnr.ca (ian i. gorlick)
Subject: Power Politics among Malkioni
Message-ID: <_16625_Sat_Aug__6_15:24:11_1994_@bnr.ca>
Date: 6 Aug 94 11:24:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5504
How do the Talars maintain their power among the Malkioni? They seem to me to be
without any real source of power of their own. The military power is in the
hands of the warrior caste. The spiritual/magical power is in the hands of the
priest/wizard caste. The economic power is in the hands of the
peasant/crafter/merchant caste. What is left for the Talars to use to maintain
their position on top?
One could say that their status is divinely mandated, but that mandate is
actually in the hands of the the priests. The Talars may occupy the top
positions in the church, but the people who tend to and instruct the masses are
zzabburi, not talar. If the zzabburi were to start preaching that the current
lot of talars were corrupt and had lost the mandate of heaven they could
completely undermine the moral authority of the talars and then depose them.
I can see the possibility of the talars trying to maintain a balancing act
between the interests of the other three castes and using their rivalries to
maintain the talars' status; but I can not see that being stable over many
centuries.
I would expect that malkioni society should evolve along the lines of feudal
Japan, where the noble caste ended up as powerless figureheads. The major
difference would be that the soldiers and wizards would be in competition for
control of the society, unlike the samurai who ended up in total control.
Help! I can not rationalize the continuing dominance of the talars. Can anyone
explain to me how they do it?
---------------------
From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller)
Subject: St. Myshella
Message-ID: <01HFLF47EXQA8ZE1OJ@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 6 Aug 94 20:04:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5505
It's funny how we've come up with a Saint Elleish who is a patron
of independent, "manly" women in malkioni lands. I say that because
earlier I had decided that there was a pseudo-caste for independent
women in Carmania called the "Waleesha." It sure sounds a lot like
Elleish. I consider lucky coincidences like this one to be proof
that we're on to something. I hadn't realized there was a Saint
Waleesha who founded the tradition, but I'm very happy to learn it.
-- Loren
---------------------
From: Urox@aol.com
Subject: Cruelty to Animals
Message-ID: <9408061624.tn723165@aol.com>
Date: 6 Aug 94 20:24:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5506
On the Cruelty to animals thread, Klaus sez: