From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 10 Aug 1994, part 2
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
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From: igorlick@bnr.ca (ian i. gorlick)
Subject: power politics among the Malkioni not the Brithini
Message-ID: <_26454_Tue_Aug__9_08:01:31_1994_@bnr.ca>
Date: 9 Aug 94 04:01:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5572
Peter Metcalfe:
I agree with you that there is no problem for the talars among the Brithini.
They can rely on the caste strictures to enforce the subservient roles of those
below them, as failure to follow your caste strictures will result in eventual
death by aging. My question was about the other Malkioni, particularly the
Rokari, and the other minor sects, Stygian, Galvosti, etc. I can see that among
the Loskalm Hrestoli that each talar has earned his position by his rise through
the ranks. Hopefully he has also learned enough to secure his position at the
top. But what about the other sects that don't have intercaste mobility. How do
they keep their people down?
Paul Reilly:
Superlative people skills:
Yes, I can see that they have to work on people skills, I just don't see even
2000% oratory being enough when your underlings realize that your power is based
only on words.
Furthermore, the military and priestly castes are also given administrative
duties. They too must develop their people skills. Some of them will have skills
to match the talars.
Control of money, land:
I do not believe that they control the money in their societies. I suspect that
they control the land which is a great source of wealth, but I believe that the
peasant/crafter caste is the one that engages in trade. As long as Malkioni
cultures remain isolated with little trade, the talars are in control of largest
piece of the economy, the land. Once trade opens up, the wealth will move into
the hands of the merchants and the talars will soon be asking them for loans and
becoming dependant upon them.
Analogy to modern politicians and managers:
The politicians and managers of our western society have only arisen in the last
two centuries (since roughly the French and American revolutions) and from the
way things are going in the west, I'll be surprised if they last another
century. Their various parties, factions and cartels have individually lasted
far shorter times, more like decades each at most. The talars have been in
charge for 1600 years of Time apparently without interuption and with relatively
smooth succession. How do they maintain that kind of stability?
I think your analogy may be valid for the Loskalm Hrestoli. Our upper castes
allegedly rise from the ranks based upon merit and experience. This gives the
lower classes some reason to feel that they or their descendants may profit from
this power structure. Similarly for the Hrestoli. This leads me to conclude that
the Rokari and others must also have some caste mobility. They need to be able
to co-opt knights and wizards who are growing too powerful by offering them a
place among the talars.
Divide and conquer:
Certainly! I am sure that is a vital part of their arsenal. But is it enough?
"When the pot boils, scum rises to the top." If you keep people fighting each
other, there is a risk that one of them will emerge stronger than ever, and then
what do you do?
You raise some valid points, but it still seems like the talars are walking a
tightrope. Their situation is not stable.
---------------------
From: ns10005@hermes.cam.ac.uk (N. Smith)
Subject: Divine Magic
Message-ID:
Date: 9 Aug 94 14:13:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5573
Hello all. Just a couple of points:-
David Cheng's Runepoints system - TotRM 12 and elsewhere.
My first thought was that this could make the GM's life difficult
during an encounter with Rune level NPCs, but I like the idea. How about
this as a variant?
The advantages of Divine magic are fast casting and high success
rate compared with spirit/sorcery spells. IMHO this is because the spell
is released from, rather than cast by, the magician - thus the advance
sacrifice for a specific spell. The magician only requires his Dex SR to
react and designate the target.
If the spell is chosen at the time of casting the process would
take longer. Our group has tried 1d10 SR per Runepoint, which seems to
work well. In normal situations this delay has little effect, whilst in
emergencies it can be fatal. This has given rise to a two-tier system of
both sacrificed spells and Runepoints, providing as much flexibility as
the player wishes.
Sandy's Spell Renewal.
I agree with other writers that renewal via prayer should also be
available for acolytes and above. How about:-
Initiates have the chance to renew 1 spell point on HD & HHD.
Acolytes and above have the chance to regain 1pt HD, all pts HHD.
The officiating priest can regain all pts on HD & HHD.
Renewing spells in this fashion requires the officiating priest and
recipient to perform the worship ceremony correctly (one role for the
priest, one roll for each recipient). Since the chance of renewing a
spell is based on the ceremony skill, the longer an initiate has served
the cult the better the chance of renewing magic.
Acolytes and priests can also renew spell points by praying for
one day per point and making a successful ceremony roll.
Two points to note:-
1) I play that Ceremony is specific to a religon, although associate cults
often have some similarities in worship forms - cf languages.
2) I make no distinction between acolytes and priests since I do not see
one as being "more holy" than the other. Any differences are in secular
privilege and power, eg "I'm sorry Brother Acolyte, but the Chapel of
Renewal is fully booked for the next three seasons, so those who tend the
flock can refresh themselves. Oh, and don't forget to buy your own incense".
This seems to have grown in the telling - thanks for your patience.
Nigel
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From: jiml@falcon.teleride.on.ca (Jim Lai)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 09 Aug 1994
Message-ID:
Date: 9 Aug 94 07:58:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5574
Re: Uleria's apparently disorderly and non-fertile high holy day
The GL consternation with Uleria comes from trying to fit a round peg into
a square hole. Uleria is also tied with companionship, thus reproductive
fertility is optional. Enjoyable social gathers are spontaneous events,
thus disorder. A similar argument could be made for more intimate discourse.
As to the conflicting legends where Uleria is actually said to be a man:
well, perhaps Uleria is like Desire from the Sandman comic series.
Sandy Petersen muses:
> The God Learners seem to have had both theistic and Malkioni
>elements. Everyone says they practiced "sorcery", and we know that
>they did most of their experimentation upon theistic, even Theyalan,
>cults. Probably no one now remembers what they started out as.
Maybe they rewrote their own history using HeroQuests. If so, perhaps the
backlash on the Hero Plane wiped out the memory of their past in a manner
not unlike an implosion.
Sandy continues:
>Joerg re: Kralori ancestor worship
>>What about shades of the deceased, not their true spirits, but some
>>form of awareness?
> The Kralori have plenty of ghosts around. But I don't think
>that (most) Kralori worship or honor them in the way that the ancient
>Chinese did.
Right, otherwise their worship pattern might too easily fit the Western
cult of Ancestor Worship (or Daka Fal). Secondly, there is little need to
keep feeding an ancestor's spirit when they're no doubt dining quite well
in Vithela.
Henk nearly floors me with:
>At convulsion we had some discussion about Runes and there being hundreds
>of them, sometimes different runes standing for the same thing,
>sometimes the same rune representing different things.
>
>So for some people the Sun rune is the "eye" rune.
>This prompted me to wonder what the "eye in the pyramid" stands for.
Solar Illumination? And could this be why the Sun Domers seem to cooperate
with the Lunars in Pavis?
>Only as I write this, I realise it is the same as: "Sun in Law"
Argh. Surely the Trickster cult must have a divine spell along the
lines of Killing Joke. As a QuestWorld variant:
KILLING JOKE (aka BRAIN DISRUPTION)
1 POW, stackable, reusable
Causes 1d3 damage to the head (or whatever thinking appendage) of the
intended target (within earshot). The spell is cast while telling a
joke, preferably one that is bad. The special effect is that of stars
thrown forth to encircle the head of the victim.
GrimJim
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From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: sandy stuff
Message-ID: <9408091705.AA09107@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 9 Aug 94 05:05:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5575
Big Disclaimer: Kevin Rose just posted some stuff to the Digest
claiming it was authored by "Sandy Peterson".
Firstly, my name is "Sandy PetersEn".
Secondly, the stuff in question was mostly written by Greg
Stafford (I did do some editing on the paragraphs in question).
Kevin politely asked me if it would be okay to post, and I
said yes, never thinking that he must have assumed I wrote it. *argh*
Joerg points out:
>The munchkin deep inside of me squirms... There _is_ a RQ3 way to
>use someone else's POW, but it is for divine magic users only.
>[Joerg then goes on to explain how to abuse Mindlink]
I play that not even Mindlink will work to sacrifice someone
else's POW. Not for DI, not for sacrificing for Rune spells. Nothing.
>Fonrit is different from Umathela, and I don't think that they
>imported any Umathelan deity on their own, or desired one.
Hear, hear. Fonrit in general, I believe, has its own array
of gods, just as does Teshnos (or Prax, for that matter). Because of
the harsh oppression of that land, and the prevalence of tiny
independent states, there are many enclaves of foreign gods, however.
Hence, you might find Pamalt-worshiping regions, Umathelan cities,
etc. But I suspect such areas are no more than 15% of the whole, thus
following the usual Gloranthan rule.
Fonritian Deities? I know that Ompalam is important, as is
the god of Tap (whose name I forget, but I think it starts with a J).
In addition, there is the Land Goddess, Ernamola; and the Slave God,
Artmal. Gark the Calm occasionally shows up (Fonrit is where he
garners his biggest successes), but he's hardly a standard god --
more of a social plague.
>The First Age myth of the OOO mentions his proof that he was _not_ a
>troll when he resisted the iron the dwarf hero of Gemborg employed
>against him, and was not burnt.
Okay, Joerg. I must now reveal one of the secrets of the Only
Old One. The reason he was able to prove that he was not a troll was
because on that occasion he WAS not a troll -- he was a human. Later
on, when he was burnt by the iron, he was a troll. How can this be?
Simple. The Only Old One is an office, not a person. It is handed
down through the centuries, and it was occasionally a human during
the good old days before the racial wars of the First Age set trolls,
elfs, and dwarfs at odds one with another.
re: Talar dominance
It is known that Zzabur once attempted to wrest the power of
the Talars away from them. He also once attempted to purloin the
power of the Horals. Both attempts failed, and the wizards assigned
to the tasks aged and died. But the fact he tried at all is rather
suggestive.
Alison Place:
>My last comment - I thought that the reference to tapping women's
>Int was to balance the sexes
What a great idea! Tap Women's INT to make them equal to men.
Makes sense to me. If you tapped them enough, maybe more of them
would become adventurers.
Joerg:
>Is there anybody who disagrees with this history of Slontos?
>Who has better informations?
The history of Slontos is one of the very most likely spots
to be Gregged in the entirety of Glorantha. I know that Greg has
much stuff on it unpublished, including an interesting short story
just before its' destruction, in which almost the entire land is
given over to chaos. The chaos is real creepy stuff, too. The slime
deer in Dorastor came from that story.
Nils:
>The myth says that Ernalda hid deep under the ground during the
>Great Darkness. Which god(s) managed to get her back above ground?
She didn't. She's still underground, out of contact with her
minions except through her priestesses and religious ceremonies.
Loren Miller:
Suggests Doves for CA allies. Pigeons are primarily
granivores, so that's okay. However, Loren mentions "Chalana Arroy
healers are not required to be vegetarians". Hmm. I've generally
played them as such, and I believe so have most other folk. Though I
admit I can't recall an actual statement to that effect in the
original CA cult.
Jonas Schiott
>Re: Sandy's suggestion about Divine Magic renewal.
>Don't certain cults have _weekly_ holy days? This unbalances things.
In cases where cults have more or less numerous holy days, I
would suggest adjusting the Divine renewal appropriately. For
instance, if your cult has a weekly holy day, I might permit priests
to regain 1d6 points a day (or 1/20 their Ceremony skill, or
something, if randomness is undesirable), instead of all of them at
the Big Holy Days. Initiates would regain nothing except at the
bigger holy days. If there were no bigger holy days except for the
High Holy Day, I'd probably let them regain 1d6 points on the High
Holy, and nothing on any other day.
Similar fudges can be made for most cults with aberrant holy
day practices.
---------------------
From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: Doves for Chalana Arroy
Message-ID: <9408091842.AA16779@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 9 Aug 94 08:42:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5576
Doves are violent, territorial, bad-tempered, vicious creatures. Ever
watch them in action? Their reputation as "peaceful" is as accurate as the
phrase "blind as a bat".
Also, in River of Cradles, Chalana Arroy are required to be vegetarians.
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From: PMichaels@aol.com
Subject: Naughty Bits, and a Request
Message-ID: <9408091442.tn848302@aol.com>
Date: 9 Aug 94 18:42:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5577
Peter Metcalfe responded to my ideas on Umatum and Rakenveg.
I'm glad you like the idea as a whole! :-)
Here's one slang phrase I forgot to include: "splitting hares." ;-)
Also, here's a joke that I had a good laugh at and is probably told in
Ulerian temples:
Q: Why do men name their penises?
A: Because they don't want a perfect stranger making 90% of their decisions
for them.
I agree with you that Umatum is probably a DH Cognate of Umath. From the
official (but alas unpublished) Eurmal cult write up, in Peloria there are
found the Trickster aspects of the Destroyer, Seducer, Fright, and Murderer.
Thus, I think Umatum is the destructive Trickster (Destroyer and Murderer
aspects) for the Dara Happans, in much the same way that Orlanth is the
Trickster for the Lunar Empire (as revealed by Greg at the RQ-Con 1 seminar
run by Nick Brooke). So, Rakenveg comes to be the Trickster Seducer and
Fright aspects (and Sexual Insatiate, if you choose to incorporate that
idea.)
I think Umatum's penis (let's be adult here - that's the anatomically correct
word, and I try not to be as hung up about sex as the Dara Happans) is
probably representative of Vadrus, the god of unrestrained storm. I say this
because I believe that of all the Air gods Vadrus raped and violated (female)
others the most during the Storm Age.
On thinking about it, I also agree with you that my original Sexual Prowess
spell is too wimpy. I was just trying to get the idea of the spell across.
Folks can enhance, "extend," or change it as they see fit. I'm not sure of
the duration being a whole _season_ though. And, I think Dispel Magic would
work.
BTW, David Cheng has published the RQ-Con 1 seminar transcripts in his
RuneQuest-Con Compendium. They were for sale at Convulsion, and should be
available to the general public shortly. (I expect David will make a more
complete announcement very soon, so please don't deluge either he or I with
more requests for info. I'm not involved with the sale, and Dave is working
as fast as he can to make 'em available.) I think David said the price would
be $15 US.
And now, for a request of ye olde Gloranthan scholars:
I seem to remember reading a while back a brief bit (1-2 paragraphs) about
the differences between the EWF and the God Learners. I think it was from
the point of view of an EWF'er, and basically said that where the GL's have
"width", the EWF has "depth." Was this a wishful hallucination, or can
somebody help me remember where this could be found? My filing system has
been more influenced by Eurmal than Lhankor Mhy of late...
Peace,
Peter
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From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: Godlearner religion
Message-ID: <9408091848.AA16831@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 9 Aug 94 08:48:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5578
I see the godlearners as pretty much technocratic pragmatists. "We believe
what works, and make things so that they work BETTER than they ever did
before." Thus, if it is more functional to believe that Orlanth is the
god of storms, they adopt that belief. If it is more functional to believe
that there are no gods at all, they adopt that belief. Their institutions
probably had appropriate "belief sections" for appropriate tasks.
After all, the gods are just mechanisms of the universe. Remember, we have
a set of rules to describe the universe. We call it "The RuneQuest Rules"
and use it to extend Jrusteli hegemony over the world. This allows us to
"play with" Glorantha the way children play with their games.
It is these "RuneQuest Rules" that gave the godlearners their great powers.
Applying these rules gave them the "RuneQuest Sight", after all.
Unfortunately, the world loses cohesion and begins to fall apart if the
RuneQuest rules are applied willy-nilly to explain everything. Eventually,
the inconsistencies get to be too great and the world either snaps back or
ceases to be, since the world is more complex than the RuneQuest Rules will
allow for.
---------------------
From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: Talars
Message-ID: <9408091853.AA16873@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 9 Aug 94 08:53:53 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5579
Talars stay in power because they ARE in power.
Legitimacy as a political force is so often ignored by too many people,
including mediocre political scientists. Violence, or the threat of violence
is not enough to maintain a state beyond the reach of your arm. If your
threat of violence is not backed up by an agreement of legitimacy, you will
have constant rebellion on your hands. The Talars have the legitimacy. They
then trade use of parts of this legitimacy to the Zzaburs and the [whatevers]
for use of the threat of magical and physical violence should their government
be challenged.
Let me put it this way: Why doesn't the US Army hold coups? They know that
US culture does not grant legitimacy to military government over US citizens
who are not in the army. Thus, they wheedle their way around through the
Joint Chiefs. The US Army could easily beat up everybody in the White
House and the Congress, but they don't, and they don't even threaten to,
at least not the way that many other countries seem to run things. This
is because legitimacy is attached by USA culture to the Congress and to
the President.
The Talars hold legitimacy. They hold the right to rule, which no other
class has. Remember, all law, all rights, are imaginary. It is nothing
more than the agreement to imagine the same things as being true that holds
human culture together.
(And never, never, never underestimate the power of collective imagination.
Modern money is imaginary--it has no concrete antecedent or basis. It is
only based upon consensus to honor it as money.)
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From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: Quickstrike
Message-ID: <9408091859.AA16937@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 9 Aug 94 08:59:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5580
OWCH! Can we say bizarre munchkinism?
That is NOT a skill.
It IS a spell.
You could write it up as either a spirit spell or a sorcery spell. I would
say that it probably is a spirit spell, since Annila seems to be a more
"theistic" deity rather than a "sorcerous" one.
Make it a two point spirit spell and it would be pretty well balanced vs.
other instant incapacitation spells.
There is no justification whatsoever to make this a skill.
If you still want a "skill-like" approach. Make it dependent upon a Ceremony
that has to be done within seven days before the attempt. The spell is cast
at that time, but the success or failure of the ceremony is not known until
the Quickstrike is attempted. Basically, don't make the actual Ceremony
roll until the Quickstrike is launched.
The spell summons a creature of Annila to give speed and precision (for the
purposes of sheathing the weapon) to the caster. Thus, Second Sight will
reveal that a person with this spell cast has a spirit around him that has
some ties to Darkness and the Moon.
Making this a skill goes outside the bounds of what constitutes a skill.
All other cult-specific skills that have some sort of magical effect (sense
chaos, sense assassin) are purely sensory in nature, they do not give
direct combat effects.
---------------------
From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: Fuel in Prax
Message-ID: <9408091904.AA16977@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 9 Aug 94 09:04:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5581
I'm assuming that Prax is like the US praries.
(Grass gets to be 2-3 meters in Fire Season and Earth Season.)
Anyway, the fuel burnt would likely be dried animal dung. I see no need to
mix it with grass of any sort.