From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 13 Aug 1994, part 2
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk
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From: watson@csd.abdn.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: What we need is...
Message-ID: <199408121058.LAA03074@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 12 Aug 94 12:58:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5656
____
Dave (Cordes):
>> Hm, I kinda assumed that the "1 point per day" rule didn't actually
>> necessitate praying 24hrs per day. I assumed the priest did other useful
>> stuff around the temple during that time; and that the restriction on
>> recovery was just the limit of how much Divine magic it was physically
>> possible to garner in one day.
>
> That seems to be the intent in the RQIII book 2 - Magic Book. Page 28
> "Reusable spells may be remembered by spending one day per point of spell in
> an appropriate temple."
>
> It does not say that you have to be praying. You could theoretically be
> scrubbing floors, changing candles, chasing initiates of the opposite
> (same??) sex, etc. However a more conservative RW structured church
> upbringing says that if you want something from God you should pray for it.
Yes, *some* praying to get back spells; just not *all day*. People were
complaining that it's silly for priests to have to spend days-on-end doing
nothing but praying. I'm saying they don't: they just pray for an hour or
two and spend the rest of the time in the temple doing worthy stuff for the
cult - and no matter how hard they pray they don't get more than 1pt of
spell back per day.
_____
Sandy:
>> words fail me when I try to express my hatred of the idea of
>> optimised CA's churning out Resurrections as fast as they can pray.
>
> Yes, well that's what the new version of the Divine spell
> regaining rules is meant to fix.
Has anyone else noticed that it's only a couple of spells which are causing
the problem? The existing system works perfectly well for the majority
of divine spells. Why? Because the majority of Divine Spells are personal
adventuring/combat spells. The present recovery system suits the adventuring
style of play: Priest has spells at start of adventure; Priest casts spells
during adventure; Priest recovers spells at end of adventure.
Divine magic, as it stands, is a system of *personal magic*. Spells like
Bless Crops and Resurrection (*spit*) should NOT be personal magic IMHO.
They should be part of a Communal Divine Magic System which relies on a
mass of people, not just one individual caster. Ideally Bless Crops should
be a communal ritual cast once per year (on a Holy Day?) which blesses the
whole community. The casting should involve all worshippers. Likewise
Resurrection (if it is cast at all) should be a communal spell which the
whole community agrees to support (and sacrifice for). Castings should
be rare and wonderful.
The "problem" with spell recovery as it stands is that certain spells
have been shoe-horned into a system where they Should Not Be. A personal magic
system works fine for most Divine Spells because most Divine Spells are
personal. But spells like Bless Crops don't fit - they break the large-scale
magic ecology.
What we need is a new magic system for non-personal communal divine magic.
And we can leave Personal Divine Magic as it is (cuz it works).
___
CW.
---------------------
From: drcheng@stern.nyu.edu (David Cheng)
Subject: More on the RuneQuest-Con Compendium
Message-ID:
Date: 11 Aug 94 22:22:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5657
As several of you have noticed, I forgot to include my mailing address in
the last post. You're running to mail me a check, but don't know where to
send it to. Here we go:
David Cheng
313 East 85th Street, Apt 2C
New York, NY 10028
* David Cheng drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu cheng@io.com
(212) 472-7752 [before midnight] GEnie: D.CHENG
---------------------
From: rstaats@mail.lmi.org
Subject: Gark the Calm
Message-ID: <9407127767.AA776707147@mail.lmi.org>
Date: 12 Aug 94 13:59:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5658
Greetings!
I have always been interested in the Cult of Gark the calm. Now
that Fonrit is getting headlines, has anyone got a write up of this
cult? What is its relationship with Vivamort? Etc.
Thank you in advance,
In service,
Rich
---------------------
From: jonas.schiott@vinga.hum.gu.se (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: The Dying Earth.
Message-ID: <9408121438.AA04479@vinga.hum.gu.se>
Date: 12 Aug 94 18:38:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5659
Sandy replying to someone:
>>The Ernalda cult chapter in the Glorantha section of the RQ3 rule
>>books say that Ernalda was one of the deities who followed Yelm up
>>from hell at the dawn.
> Well, yeah, but she's still sort of underground, too. I mean,
>look around, you don't SEE her, right? Obviously she's lost some
>touch with the upper world. But at least she's not DEAD anymore
>(except during the winter), and she can answer prayers and bring
>plants back to life in the spring.
I finally looked it up in KoS (the LBQ): Orlanth finds Ernalda in the Halls
of the Dead, and from the way she is described I would assume she died a
violent death. Later, in the "Return", Orlanth and Ernalda (and Yelm and
Magasta and Subere) return to life and are described as inhabiting
(infusing?) their respective elemental realms in some semi-animistic
fashion.
I still don't know _how_ she died, but then there aren't many myths about
what was going on at home while Orlanth was off on his quest.
Of course, this is just the Orlanthi version: if I recall correctly, the
Earth pantheonists would have it that she wasn't killed, she just ran off
and hid.
( Jonas Schiott )
( Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria )
( Goteborgs Universitet )
---------------------
From: MILLERL@wilma.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller)
Subject: Holy Days and Divine Spells, etc
Message-ID: <01HFTMJL6F8E8WW19G@wilma.wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 12 Aug 94 17:27:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5660
dave_cordes@cl_63smtp_gw.chinalake.navy.mil (Dave Cordes) writes:
> Along those lines our group been discussing Sandy's proposed Divine Spell
> Renewal rules. [...] However the one main concern that bothers us (well
> really me) is that our game style tends to involve long adventures or
> quests. [...] Under these game conditions and with Sandy's rules,
> why would any Runelord ever agree to go on a quest into a land where they
> don't know if there are any temples of their faith. If the adventure is
> going to take more than a few weeks they run the risk of missing a holy day.
> And missing a holy day means no spells. And based on what I've been reading
> in the dailys, most of you seem to believe that it also puts you on the fast
> track to excommunication.
Bravo!
There seems to be some kind of mob mentality working here (having
nothing to do with MOB, for that matter) that dictates that theists
should be punished BAD if they aren't stick-in-the-mud peasant
parishioners who never go anywhere or do anything. I couldn't disagree
more. As far as I am concerned, I play RuneQuest in Glorantha to have
fun. I don't argue Glorantha to have fun. I argue Glorantha so I can
have more fun later, ***IN THE GAME***. Many, perhaps most, RQ
campaigns include "adventures," long treks where characters go all
over the world. "Adventures" should not be made impossible by the game
system, nor should the fun be sucked out of them with punitive rules.
Q: Is it fun to play a RuneLord sent on a long mission who gets
excommunicated because he doesn't get back in time?
A: No.
Therefore by the principle of Maximum Game Fun (MGF) the RL doesn't
get excommunicated for traveling. How about initiates? MGF applies, so
no excommunication either. How about regaining spells and so on. MGF
applies again, so it isn't true either.
Q: How can we justify regaining spells when there isn't a convenient
temple?
A: Sanctify Divine Spell/Ritual does it for me. IMO a casting of this
along with a successful Ceremony roll should allow all worshipping
priests to regain all their RuneMagic. [I'd also add associated
priests (and cite MGF) but I can see how this addition might be
controversial.] Either have a matrix with Sanctify which is given to
non-priests who are going on long missions, or send a priest/acolyte
with the spell along. Then say that the matrix automatically recharges
if the worship service was a success. That does it for me.
Summing up, for me Glorantha is a setting I really really really like
to use in a game. I think it has very little value outside that. So, I
think that game rules that apply to Glorantha should emphasize the fun
of the game over "realism." It's more fun to have a Dove familiar for
CA than a butterfly, and more fun if senior priests can cast more
magic than junior priests in the same period of time, and more fun if
sorcerors don't have to compute spell maintenance tables, so in my
game I will choose rules that pass the principle of MGF. I recommend
that everyone else adopt this principle, because if everyone believed
this we would be a lot less scared of being Gregged and we would have
a lot more *FUN*. And that's the whole point. IMHO.
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
"Enough sound bites. Let's get to work." -- Ross Perot sound bite
---------------------
From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: Reviving dead gods in Time
Message-ID: <9408121728.AA17924@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 12 Aug 94 07:28:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5661
I think that part of the Compromise was that gods who stayed dead after the
start of time are SUPPOSED to stay dead. When you try to revive a dead
god after the start of time, you end up having to invoke Chaos, with all
that entails, to do it.
Ossentalka became Gbaji.
Harana Ilor became the Red Goddess. (Harana Ilor was the old Goddess of
Harmony, wasn't she--the one who stumbled in her dance in the Spike?)
I would seriously shudder to think of what would happen should Genert be
revived. You think Dorastor is a chaos-hole--imagine what would happen if
the soul of an entire continent became chaos tainted...
As for a deity like Basmol, I think he was killed within Time. Different
rules would apply in such a case. The problem is that he would have to be
resurrected, which would first require that one get hold of all the pieces
of his body and heal them together. Then you have to track down the spirit
of Basmol and put it back into the body.
This is probably why Arkat split up the pieces of Gbaji and scattered them.
Although Ossentalka had died out of Time, Gbaji died within time, and there
was risk of his revival if he were to be assembled.
---------------------
From: jlikamti@iso.estec.esa.nl
Subject: TEST TRANSMISSION - LOOKING FOR RQ
Message-ID: <9408121746.AA24533@isou18.estec.esa.nl>
Date: 12 Aug 94 21:46:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5662
Hello to anyone out there,
Is this the place where I can follow
news & discussion on RuneQuest ???
+------------------------------------+
| Mr J.B. Li-Kam-Tin |
| ISO Science Operations (SAI) |
+------------------------------------+
| ESTEC |
| Keplerlaan 1 |
| PO Box 299 |
| 2200 AG Noordwijk |
| HOLLAND |
+------------------------------------+
| Tel : +31-(0)1719-85087 |
| Fax : +31-(0)1719-85434 |
+------------------------------------+
| E-mail : jlikamti@iso.estec.esa.nl |
+------------------------------------+
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: More Cartoons on Glorantha (besides Howard, Daffy, Donald, et al)
Message-ID: <9408121812.AA03958@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 12 Aug 94 18:12:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5663
Paul Reilly replyint to Mike Dickinson.
>But Martin Crim's
>excellent writeup of the Hykim cult states that the Pralor totem "resembles
>the Old World elk, not the New World wapiti",
I am stunned. What are we going to do with our Wapiti antlers? They
were such a great campaign aid.
So when the Pralori cast Head and Body (but not limbs) they look like
Bullwinkle J. Moose? Are they friends with the rare Flying Squirrel Hsunchen?
I will stick with wapiti Pralori. I very much like the vanished Great Deer
people. I would guess the the mightiest Pralori, Ditali, etc. shamans can
still contact this great totem? (I.e., it is remembered, so it was not
destroyed utterly by chaos in the God's War and is still contactable.)
Has anyone else done much with totems? Wolverine and White Bear have
been important in our campaigns.
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: Regaining Divine Magic
Message-ID: <9408121825.AA04216@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 12 Aug 94 18:25:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5664
Paul Reilly replying to
>>>
That seems to be the intent in the RQIII book 2 - Magic Book. Page 28
"Reusable spells may be remembered by spending one day per point of spell in
an appropriate temple."
It does not say that you have to be praying. You could theoretically be
scrubbing floors, changing candles, chasing initiates of the opposite
(same??) sex, etc. However a more conservative RW structured church
upbringing says that if you want something from God you should pray for it.
<<<
How about: for the God to send you the renewed spell (or for you to
Walk the Spell Path) takes a ceremonial donation of, say 8 MP to the god
per point of magic renewed. (Or, this is what it takes to open the path.)
Now, a priest can spend eight hours in ceremonial prayer at the usual rate
of 1 MP/Hour, or can lead a special worship service. Let's say he has
ten points of magic. If he leads 80 worshippers in an hour-long ceremony
where they each donate 1 mp, he can perhaps get all his magic back. (If
the Worship Ceremony is successful. I might give a large bonus to individual
prayer, making it effectively almost automatic... but leading others not
so motivated would require the skill roll.)
Now let's analyze the possibility of Initiates getting their spells back
on the same pattern. Assuming the same "price ratio" holds for Initiates,
then an Initiate who has attended weekly ceremonies all season and worshipped
at each one could get a point of divine magic back at seasonal holy day.
Assuming Initiates average less than 5 points of magic apiece, the same
reasoning would lead one to believe that Initiates could get back all their
magic at the High Holy Day ceremony once/ year.
So I would propose perhaps that priests get to keep the one day/ point
renewal in single prayer, or can get it back magic in a big ceremony as
Sandy suggests, provided they succeed in the Ceremony roll (or should this
be Oratory to inspire people? Perhaps use one as a helper skill) and
that they have eight or ten worshippers present for each spell that they
regain. (Generous GM's might allow fervent worship to substitute for
numbers, e.g. a Sword of Humakt whose "congregation" is just the ten
serjeants of an Orlanthi mercenary company might be able to regain his
spells in a fervent all-day ceremony where everyone puts in eight hours
and eight MPs.)
Well, all for now,
paul
----
---------------------
From: david_baur@cl_63smtp_gw.chinalake.navy.mil (David Baur)
Subject: Replies and Answers
Message-ID: <9408121850.AA09800@Sun.COM>
Date: 12 Aug 94 03:42:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5665
Replies and Answers 8/12/94 11:40
AM
Dave Baur sending Greetings from the Desert,
More Than One Way To Skin An Animal
===============================
Michelle Ringo in X-RQ-ID: 5475 states:
> Tapping animals. I think that Klaus OK's comment that it
> would be okay to "skin animals alive" and that caring for
> animals is not typical of the Gloranthan world is further
> disproved by spells such as Peaceful Cut, which indicate an
> understanding of the cycle of nature and a respect for
> nature. . . .
Peaceful cut is taught by Frog Woman Cult (The Horned Man/Wastelands --
actually she requires knowledge but doen't teach it), Waha (Prax), and Hunter
Gods (Trolls, Pamault, Pent, Wastelands, Orlanthi Hunter). The spell only
returns the spirit for "recycling". The spell is cast during the butchering
roll on a slain beast. This implies that you can still skin the animal alive
as a means of torture or rival herd debilitation. You are taking the point
of a CA (which is good), but Glorianthans may not see things the same way,
such as in the real world where India also understands about the cycle of
nature, but that doesn't stop the rest of the world from eating at McDonalds
or Burger King or (substitute choice of fast food restraunt here). To the
civilized world, some creatures pelts are rare and might be worth a small
fortune. "Oh, what a marvelous goatlike skin coat. Those matching rams
horns make a perfect accessory. You say that it is from an animal common to
Doraster? Really? I must have one!" :-)
A Question Of Gods and The Compromise and Soda Heroquesting Rules
========================================================
Joseph Christopher Wehman asks in X-RQ-ID: 5517 some good questions
about the gods and the compromise. The Heroquest rules in soda.berkley are
good and do explain some about this if you can FTP. Likewise, John Strauss,
they are in archives\supplements 5-7. If you can't get them, send me an
EMAIL, and I'll try sending you a copy of the rules and Q&As over the line.
The rest you're going to have to get yourself.
If a God is born under Time, then the God would be part of the
Compromise. Likewise, if a God convinces a Heroquester to somehow bring them
back, then they would have to abide under the compromise (Making its binding
commitments towards Time as Time sees fit).
As to the Red Moon Goddess who was born close to the start of the Third
Age (around 1200 S.T. if I recall) by the Seven Mothers, who were themselves
human mortals. These seven located an obscure, long unworshiped goddess
already surrounded in the Compromise who became the Red Goddess. The Ascent
of the Moon was an aspect of her new and revived Godhood. (Anyone have a
Heroquest Module for this yet?) Your question should be whether the Seven
Mothers are really held by the Compromise.
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Re: "Deer" Hsunchen
Message-ID: <199408121959.AA07621@radiomail.net>
Date: 12 Aug 94 19:59:31 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5666
Mike.Dickison@vuw.ac.nz said
>The problem is with the Pralori. I assumed that US conventions held, and
>their totem was the American elk, a giant race of the European red deer
>(stats in the Creatures Book, ditto for Fallow Deer). But Martin Crim's
>excellent writeup of the Hykim cult states that the Pralor totem "resembles
>the Old World elk, not the New World wapiti", ie; the Pralori elk is a
>moose.
I'd been assuming the Pralori were American elk as well. Martin's Hsunchen
descriptions are pretty good, but I believe he's wrong on the extinct-ness
of the Galanini; he could be wrong on the Pralori species.
Incidentally, in my East Ralios there are (thanks to Jonas Schiott) moose
Hsunchen, the Aleci. They're probably more prevalent in Keanos, 1) because
it's sparsely populated with Orlanthi; 2) because parts of Keanos aren't
well drained, and there are seasonal marshes. They probably live in the
foothills of the Mislari Mountains, though they're nomadic. I assume their
culture is similar to the Pralori or Damali.
They're famous in my campaign because Konall Intamorlsson was fostered to a
Aleci shaman, and is known as "Moose Boy." I don't think he's forgiven his
brother for sending him off to live with a primitive who wears a dress...
There are only about 1500 Aleci in the East Wilds, 4000 Pralori, and 4000
Damali. (There are of course many Damali and Pralori in nearby Pralorela.)
>Anyone interested in my version of Kaxterplose?
But of course!