Bell Digest v940819p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 19 Aug 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


---------------------

From: klaus@diku.dk
Subject: POW
Message-ID: <199408180727.AA09208@rimfaxe.diku.dk>
Date: 18 Aug 94 11:27:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5749

sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) writes:

>>How does your friendly parish wizard ever get a POW gain roll?

>	What does he need one for? A priest needs POW gains in order  
>to keep getting new spells. A shaman needs POW gains to keep his  
>fetch growing. A wizard only needs to study his spells and practice  
>them to keep improving. This takes time, not POW.  

Now I could be nasty and ask what a shaman's fetch needs to grow
for.

>	Once a wizard's POW has reached a reasonable level, he only  
>needs new POW if he wants to make magic items. 

Or homing circles. Teleport is such a useful spell that I can't believe
that Loskalm doesn't have a travel-by-wizard system.

More importantly, sorcerers need magic items in a way the other
types of magician do not. A sorcerer will want to have most or
all of his INT available for manipulating spells. This mean that
he will want matrixes for all his spells, or bound intellect spirits.
In principle, he could store the spells in a familiar. However,
a thorough search of the creature lists available to me  (books
4 and 5 from GM's box and Glorantha Bestiary) has turned
up only these incomplete creatures lacking only trainable
characteristics: Chonchon, ghoul, hellion (which lacks ALL
trainable characteristics), lamia, mummy, vampire, zombie.
These all lack POW, so even if you could somehow persuade
a suitable creature to become your familiar, you will have to
spend POW. Binding intellect spirits would  probably be cheaper
in POW , as you don't want a familiar with low POW.

Then there are some spells that are useful only if you have
them in manipulated matrixes. One such is teleport. Travelling
up to 10 m to a predetermined place has only very limited use.
You might of course send letters or small parcels a long way, but
to travel you need a matrix with 10 or more points of range
and/or intensity.

Look at the Loskalm map. With 16 points of range, a teleport
center anywhere in central Loskalm could cover the whole country.
Any sorcerer with a homing circle in the kings castle could send
a message there from anywhere in Loskalm if he had a matrix
with a few points of range. How many depends on his INT, how
many emergency spells he has in his own memory and exactly
where he is. I am sure that there are many such matrixes and
homing circles, and that special transport wizards in Northpoint
have homing circles all around the country. These would also be used to
move people, and for this larger matrixes are needed.  Those of the
kings special agents who work in the far provinces are probably rather
small. Maybe create familiar SIZ is useful after all.

Note that a network structure is not much better than a star. If you
want a station every 80 km, you need SIZ + 13 points of
manipulation in stead of SIZ + 16. With that many stations, you
need an awful lot of transport wizards, who get tied to their
stations.

Fly is a spell that is much more useful with just a few points
of manipulation in a matrix. (It is really a misnamed telekinesis
spell). Immortality goes from being useless to priceless with
just a few points of duration in a matrix.

Additionally, a wizard will want bound power spirits, to enable him
to use more magic points than he produces himself. So will other
magicians, of course, but they don't need as many mp's as do sorcerers.
Most spirit spells cost one mp, most divine spells none. Sorcery
spells often have to be manipulated to be useful.

A wizard need not make all his matrixes himself, of course, some
probably come with the job.

>	But in any case, if the wizard leads services for the  
>Invisible God, I'd give him a POW gain roll every Sacred Time.

GoG says explicitly that wizards don't get POW gain rolls for leading
services (Cults Book page 48).

I will end with a somewhat related question: The immortality spell
requires some interesting components. What would work in
Glorantha? Several things, I suppose. A Vadeli baby? Sandy said
some time ago that the Veldang are really Vadeli. Does that mean
that a Veldang baby would  do? Who in Fonrit knows? Or are the
Vadeli more like the church of immortality?

Klaus O K

PS. A few days ago I said that priests will only fail their enchantment
rolls 5% of the time because they have access to "invigorate"
spells. The spell is really called endurance. Sorry about that.

---------------------

From: CHEN190@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Subject: Revenge of the Blue Wizard.
Message-ID: <01HG2FLG5JGIED0VWL@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: 19 Aug 94 08:42:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5750

John Hughes:
------------
Your Dorraddi riddle that you couldn't get.  

>Keraun comes and he children dance; the mother does nor dance.

I presume the correct version is

'Keraun comes and her children dance; the mother does not dance'

The answer is of course, the children being rain (or lightning) the mother is
the cloud.

Lord of the Runes
-----------------

>>And surely for the Moon rune, Annilla should be its first holder.

Jonas wrote

>Yes? have I contradicted this?

Annilla's runes are Sea, Moon and Darkness.  No infinity rune.  I admit defeat
in the case of Daka Fal but Horned Man still remains to be explained.  CoT (or
some other source) states that the spirit rune was not yet realized during the
Golden Age.  Thanks for getting my name right anyway! :-)

Joerg cites the Emperor Yelmgatha:  Who?  I must get a copy of the Book of
Emperors or I will go insane!

Harald Smith:  Doing the switch of the Blue Wizard and the Whitelaw will have
very disasterous consequences for you:  You will become obsessed about a tiny
place in Peloria called Imth... what?  happened already?  You have nothing to
worry about then :-)

And now some tidbits from the many suns debate.
-----------------------------------------------

This is going well.  I seem to have hammered out an acceptable theory with
Joerg.  We are still debating a few points, I propose something that seems
perfectly reasonable which he dismisses out of hand as 'Wild speculation'.  I
wish he'd stop being so stolid... :-)

How Dara Happans wash themselves:

"the pure among us do not deign to contaminate themselves with water but bathe
in fragrant oils scented with the perfumes of flowers.  We then burn these oils
off with a holy flame and a paen of praise to the Emperor Yelm [aka protection
6] leaving behind a sweet smeel and a clean skin"

"for the less pure or those who cannot bear the touch of the holy flame without
their base nature flinching, a mundane solution is at hand.  We take the
residue of that august element [ash] and mix it with water.  The divine natue
of the august residue then commands the motions of the water.  When pressed to
mortal flesh contaminated with filth, the divine residue commands the waters to
take what is foul and impure and depart, leaving that which is clean and pure
behind. [This is actually a primitive version of soap BTW]"

Other things thrashed out but not detailed here is the nature of the
relationship between Genert and Yamsur amongst other things.

Cheers

--Peter Metcalfe aka Blue Wizard.

---------------------

From: pyspas@midge.bath.ac.uk (Paul Snow)
Subject: Rune Power Points and Wyters
Message-ID: 
Date: 18 Aug 94 11:20:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5751


> > The chance of the effect is POW * 3 for initiates, *4 for acolytes and *5 for 
> > rune levels.  The cost is the normal cost in POW for the spell.  However, 
> > the spell is cast on a one-use basis (non-reusable spells cost double!).  
> > 
> Yes, YES, *YES*!  I like, very much.  This addresses a number of
> problems, and negates the need for a Rune Power Pool system, despite
> Tim Leask's eloquent (but flawed) arguments to the contrary.  (I'll
> come back to that.)
> 
	I don't agree. Using Loren's MGF guideline consider the 
following.  Three characters/adventurers after long and hard struggles 
return home and attend (high) holy day ceremonies like good worshippers 
should.  Let us assume that they all have equal POW.  Now it is quite 
possible that say two out of the three will make their roll for spell 
return and one poor sod doesn't. Why does he deserve this when he has 
been as faithful to his religion as the other two and most importantly
what fun will be be to play this character out adventuring with the others
on the next adventure. My players would hate this. 


> From: watson@csd.abdn.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
> 
> __________
> David Baur:
> >     I like the idea of the "communal temple spirit" (A sort of brainless
> > temple allied spirit).   It does seem to fit better into the flavor of RQ
> > then the generic power Vs. number of worshippers idea.
> 
> Also, I think it provides a mechanism for more powerful magic in general.
> It seems naively adventurocentric of us to suppose that the be-all-and-end-all
> of Gloranthan magic can rest in the hands of individuals. I believe
> the most powerful magics are accessed through cooperative ritual (although
> I don't really need rules for it 'cos it won't be in the forefront of many
> of my games: just understand that it's *out there*).
> 
	A lot of potential in wyters I think. Recently someone asked how 
you found a city or some such. Clearly the establishment of a permanent 
and protected village and city is marked by the ceremony to create the 
wyter for the place.

	Remember the long deabate about tribal vs cult &/or tribal
initiation. Clearly a full initiation has two parts to it. The religious
initiation is bound by the sacrifice of POW to form a link with the god. 
The tribal initiation must be sealed by the establishment of a link to the
tribal/village wyter which truly marks the individual's share of the
responsibilities of joining the community.  
	I think that when a tribe or clan has strong links back to an
initial founding figure or myth the communal energy of the wyter can
materialize in tribal ceremonies representing the founding element in
permanent touch with the current clansmen and through this act the tribe
can keep in touch with particular magics or abilities of the clan. 
	Greg has talked about the true hero being the one who brings
abilities back from heroquests and gives them to the community so all can
benefit. I suppose that we should understand this by seeing that this as 
the mythically gained ability being stored in the wyter.

Comments?

PAS 


---------------------

From: strauss@hopper.itc.virginia.edu (John Strauss)
Subject: phil davis
Message-ID: <199408180937.FAA13849@Hopper.itc.Virginia.EDU>
Date: 18 Aug 94 01:37:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5752

>Elves are vegetables so a Dark Troll can get along fine as 
>a vegetarian and a CA one will be OK as long as someone else
>harvests the elves, dryads, pixies and runners for him/her.  

>Now  wouldn't that be a nice wierd set up for the Uz version of
>CA.  "Don't worry about the elves. The harvester assures me that
>he is very quick and they don't feel any pain!"

Heh, yeah that is what I had in mind. Although I would make him a
very devout and pious CA. He would insist that the harvester use
Food Song. :)



Brandon sez:
>I was lucky enough to play in Phil's game when he came to DC....

>I particularly lamented his departure, as I was just getting
>started on a particularly insane and dangerous set of
>heroquests...

One of the things that I always admired about Phil, besides his
sheer unbridled imagination, was his ability to handle any power
level, no matter how high or low, and still stress you up to but
not quite touching your breaking point.

Jotham Swordtongue was a Librarian Hero. He had his own Lankhor Mhy
subcult, his own high priest, even had another PC as a worshipper.
He rarely cast Truth magic, as he had most of it as inate
abilities. He had the command voice and was able to force
compliance, even death, on a critical orate. If you wished to lie
in his hearing, you had to overcome his POW to do so, and even then
he would generally know you were lying. He routinely debated
doctrine with Lankhor Mhy, as the two of them could not come to
agreement on several points. Phil and I were trying to decide what
to put on his Dragon Pass/Nomad Gods counter. But Phil still
managed to challenge Jotham to the point of terror and/or
confusion, at will, while other people, some at initiate level,
were busily playing in the same scenario.

I have no doubt that the HQs you mention were just as you say,
insane and dangerous. Phil is a scary guy. Somewhere in Sunny
Calif, someone is staying up nights worried about the fiendish
things Phil is threatening to do to their character. 

I envy them.

John Strauss


---------------------

From: watson@csd.abdn.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 18 Aug 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <199408181005.LAA14801@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 18 Aug 94 12:05:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5753

___
Tim:
>   On Communal Rune magic and temple spirits etc: OK, so what happens to the
>famous Broo Healer of the Rockwoods? I'm sure he knows Resurrection. I'm also
>sure he doesn't have a real big temple etc! So, how would he go about getting
>the spell cast if it requires a temple spirit?

It's no secret that I don't like resurrection; I suggested it as communal
magic as a way of inhibiting its proliferation. But if you want it to be a
3pt-personal-Divine-Spell-reusable-by-CAs then you just keep it that way.

But anyway, traditional CAs require a temple of some sort to recover their
spells (remember the requirement of 7x7x2 worshippers mentioned in KOS?: that
sounds like a 98pt wyter to me). I assume the Rockwoods healer either visits
a temple on a fairly regular basis, or he cheats in some non-standard way.

>Healers tend to congregate on their temples at Holy Days for 2 reasons:
>a) to boost the number of initiates there worshipping; and
>b) to pray for their own Rune spells back again at a decent size temple. 

c) to cast the Temple Wyter's spell(s)?

1 resurrect per year between 100 CAs sounds about right to me...

___
CW.

---------------------

From: pearton@unpsun1.cc.unp.ac.za (Dave Pearton)
Subject: What does the lozenge rest on?
Message-ID: 
Date: 18 Aug 94 14:50:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5754

Hi,

I'm at work so I don't have access to my sources, but I don't believe that
this question is answered.  

What does the lozenge rest on?  The current cosmology as far as I can see
is:

			Upper Heaven

			Sky Dome

			Middle Air

			Earth/Ocean

			Hells/Food Place (Yelimc and Troll)

But what are the upper and lower bounds of this?  Is there a roof to the
upper heavens and a lower bound to the hells?  There would have to be if
chaos enters "from outside".  So what does the Gloranthan cosmos rest on
(has visions of giant turtles, etc...) or does it simply float in a formless
void of chaos?  If so, just how is the cosmos bounded?  If chaos entered in
the North by lifting up the sky dome then it would imply that the sky dome
is the outer bound, but the upper heavens where the star captains are and
Dayzatar has retreated to appears to be above the sky dome so that can't be
the case.

Also if all the waters rushed to fill the gaping hole in the cosmos
created by the destruction of the spike where is the water going - (out of
the cosmos?) and if so is will the water ever going to run out completely?

Ah well, just my fevered imagination working overtime once more....

Cheers,
Yak

-- 
***********************************************************************
Dave Pearton				* ....As I was saying before I
Biochemistry Dept.			* was so rudely interrupted
University of Natal			* by one of my multiple
Pietermaritzburg			* personalities....
					*
pearton@unpsun1.cc.unp.ac.za		* Naked Lunch (W.S. Burroughs)
************************************************************************

---------------------

From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: Sanctify
Message-ID: <01HG2HCF4T7S98FQFK@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: 19 Aug 94 07:43:36 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5755

G'day Everyone,

________
Sanctify

Does this spell have a duration (eg. the standard 15 minutes?)  I don't 
think so from the description.  In any case, here's how I play it:
Sanctify lasts indefinitely, just like Warding.  While it remains in
effect, the priest who cast it can't pray to get the spell back.  To
Sanctify an area, the priest performs a special ritual (and succeeds in
a Ceremony roll).  Trying to Sanctify an area elementally or theologically
opposed to one's god might be difficult, eg. an Orlanth Priest trying to
Sanctify an area deep in a cave might have a prohibitive penalty on his
Ceremony roll.  However, Sanctifying a theologically appropriate spot (eg.
a mountaintop in the rain) might be easier: add to the Ceremony roll.

You can get your spells back at a temple because the temple has been
Sanctified.  Often, the temple was first Sanctified way back when the 
founder built it, and that original Sanctify spell is still in effect.  This
is generally considered a Good and Holy Thing, and might even attract some
sort of game benefit (faster regaining of divine spells, perhaps?).

Priests generally don't cast their Sanctify spells just anywhere, because
doing so can attract spirits and other bad stuff from enemy cults (temples
have defenses to ward off these).

A Sanctify spell can be "turned off", by performing the appropriate
ritual of deconsecration.  In the case the priest can pray to get his use of
Sanctify back.  A Sanctify spell can also be eliminated by cult
enemies *defiling* the Sanctified area, in which case the priest who cast
it loses the spell and must sacrifice more POW to learn it again. (He
also probably gets a bollocking from his High Priest, for leaving a holy
place vulnerable).
 

_________________________________
Of Interest Mainly to Antipodeans

Tales #12
As noted by David Gadbois on the Daily yesterday, the US edition of
Tales is not due out for a few more weeks yet; Aussies can expect
their copies a week or so after that.

Jar Eel Assassin T-shirts (*cool*)
These are available from me, at $30 each (includes post).  I'm getting in
a limited quantity, so order now unless you want to wait for the next
shipment.  Two SIZ - L and standard gamer XL.

RQ Con Compendium book - Also getting in limited quantities.  Price is
likely to be $20 (still working out mailing costs, etc.) - will add or 
debit your account if the price varies.  Order now to avoid disappointment!

RQ Con Program Books, Lunar Coins - still got a few left of these: order
now before they disappear forever!

Back issues: still got a couple of issue #10's (Sea Special), a few more
of the issue #5 reprints (Humakt) and a number of issue #11's.  Available
for $6.50 + $1.50 postage each.


_____________________________________________________
Still Of Interest Mainly to Antipodeans: Lapsed Subbers

I have no idea if any of you are on e-mail or not, but in any case, the
following Aussies have let their sub lapse (if you know 'em and they're
not on the Daily, please pass it on!).  As Tales is not available in shops
in Australia, you must be a subber to guarantee getting "The Times Literary
Supplement of RQ", as Ken Rolston recently described the zine...

Stephen D Faust	(Melbourne, Vic)
Brad Martin (Willeton, WA)
Michael Pianta (Bendigo, Vic)
Sean Foster (Perth WA)
Dirk Schorlitz	(Perth WA)
Gary Danaford	(Armadale, WA)   
Shaun (Mitcham, Vic)
Hugh McVicker (Northcote, Vic)
John Coleman (Pascoe Vale, Vic)
Darius West (Williamstown, Vic)
Paul McRandle (Braddon ACT)


That's all for now!

Cheers

MOB

---------------------

From: Bob.Luckin@tiuk.ti.com
Subject: Genert, cartoon Glorantha
Message-ID: <9408181157.AA27525@ibrox.tiuk.ti.com>
Date: 18 Aug 94 11:57:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5756

Hi from Bob Luckin !

We have the hyenas - we can rebuild him
=======================================

Sandy (X-RQ-ID: 5743) replied to a private mail I sent about Genert :-

>>I don't recall ever seeing/hearing the reason that Genert could be
>>reconstructed from hyena skins.
>        In NOMAD GODS, it is explained that Hyena (the spirit entity)
>was called upon by Genert to eat his corpse so it wouldn't fall into
>the hands of Chaos.

That's why I didn't remember it...  I'll have to dig out my copy of NG and
re-examine the rulebook.


Sandy also said :-
>My statement, to wit: "don't forget WHY Genert had Hyena eat him.
>I see no reason to suppose that his original reasoning isn't still
>valid, in which case the resurrection of Genert could lead to
>Genert's death and the takeover of a chaotic land-god."
>        Is based on the suggestion that the entities that Genert
>feared are still around waiting for him.

But that doesn't answer my other question - if Genert doesn't want to be
reconstructed, why are Issaries/Desert Trackers cultists so keen to do so ?
Do they believe the danger from Chaos no longer exists ?  Are they not aware
of the danger in the first place ?  Or is there some darker motive behind
their wanting to rebuild Genert ?  (In my original email to Sandy I
wondered if this aspect of Issaries had not been introduced by the God
Learners for some (nefarious) reason.)

Or is this explained in CoP and I've simply forgotten it ?


Cartoon Glorantha
=================

We know some people have a hard time with ducks, and now some don't like the
idea of Bullwinkle hsunchen.  As Loren recently pointed out, do what is fun
for you / your players.  If they like the humorous species, include them,
and if they don't, don't.  It's *your* Glorantha you're playing in.  :-)

This led me to speculate (just for fun, you understand) on what other
cartoon analogues you could introduce into Gloranthan culture.  How about :
   Shadow-cats based on Tom / Mr. Jinx / Snagglepuss
   Rathori based on Yogi Bear - is Harrek a pirate in order to steal picnic
      baskets ?
   Tuskers based on Porky Pig
   And just think how much fun you could have when your PC's meet a group of
      Wile E. Coyote hsunchen !
   And my favourite - is the Red Emperor really like Yosemite Sam ?

No doubt you can come up with your own suggestions...

Cheers, Bob
-- 
Bob Luckin      voly@tiuk.ti.com      "Able was I ere I saw Corflu"