Bell Digest v940901p1

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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 01 Sep 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


From: (Joerg Baumgartner)
Date: 31 Aug 94 08:23:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5957

Hi, Hans,

I'd love to get a copy of your video. I'd like to show it on German 
RuneQuest-Con in Berln next May. You and Henk are invited to attend, 
of course, but I know that at Pentecost there always is the game fair 
in the Netherlands, which is a lot closer (but less RuneQuesty).

Is there any chance to get the Baltimore con video as well?

Just in case, my snail-mail address is

Joerg Baumgartner
Klinkerwisch 36
24107 Kiel

--  Joerg Baumgartner


From: (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Vinga
Message-ID: <>
Date: 31 Aug 94 12:34:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5958

Bryan wrote:
> Of course, I expect little acceptance of this on the daily, since my ideas
> on Vinga just don't seem to be mainstream enough.

 at the end of a good piece on Vinga.

Bryan, you've got at least one supporter in this.

/Nils W


From: (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: More legalisms, jibes, and pedantry. Act surprised.
Message-ID: <>
Date: 31 Aug 94 08:56:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5959

Alison Place:
>     In 1988, TSR (used to stand for Tactical Studies Rules, now
>stands for nothing in particular)

Now stands for They Sue Regularly, no?  SJG did a Useless Table of these,

> Given that North Americans actually  
> live in a country where both moose and elk exist, whereas our British  
> and German friends don't have any of 'em, unless you count the  
> undersized Red Deer, you'd think they'd give more credence to our  
> debased American interpretations of these beasts. 

We might, if you'd managed to take the term originally applied to one of
these two in Europe, and affix it to the right one when you straggled over
to your current continent.  "Ah yes, this fierce, noble beast here must be
the Elk, the thing we kept falling over laughing at back home.  Shoot that
fellow over there mumbling something about a `wapiti'."

Oh, and I think Joerg and I can both claim to have cohabited, country-wise,
with _Alces alces_, so there.  <*schblerrrt!*>  (Okay, not that I actually
_saw_ one...  Lot of magpies, though.)

> Joerg
> >If you mean the red deer of Europe, that's at most SIZ 13, not the  
> >SIZ 22 buggers you talk about below.
> 	The "Deer" of the RuneQuest Official Monsters Book is in fact  
> the European Red Deer (which is bigger than SIZ 13, at least for  
> bucks).

Bucks, schmux.  "Harts", or "stags", please.  The deer stats seemed
red-deer-ish enough to me.  But _Cervus canadensis_ isn't _that_ much
bigger, is it?  Egads, of all the weirdest, of all possible stats, to
end up lacking after the Great RQ3 deGloranthasisation...

> >English hasn't been heard in the United States for a century.
> 	While I cheerfully accept such billingsgate from ostensible  
> English speakers, I balk at doing so from someone whose native tongue  
> is another Germanic language entirely. 

I don't think "Germanic language" adequately villifies English as it was
when the English got their hands on it, never mind after what everyone else
has done to it since.

Hoots mon.



Subject: Jaxarte in Chomoro
Message-ID: <>
Date: 1 Sep 94 05:03:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5960

Reply to Peter Whitelaw (copied to RQ Daily):

Jaxarte in Chomoro?

Doubt if he's done more than pass through, on his way to Duke Raus's
domain.  Entry in his Sun County trip (TALES #4, Sun County Book) says
"Chomoro.  619 souls.  At the far southern end of the Sun Dome Lands".

That's it I'm afraid.  Given that Duke Raus ain't got much happening down
his way, this is probably the "big smoke" for those who live in Weis
Domain.  Also, note that the Sun Dome Militia stationed there (see
militia section in Sun County) are the only Sun Domers to muck
about in boats, and are in fact detailed in the scenario of "River of

Hope this gets you thinkin'.  When you know more about Chomoro, tell me!




From: (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 27 Aug 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <>
Date: 31 Aug 94 10:33:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5961

> Alex:
> > I merely said that it seemed to make sense that the Damali and the
> >Pralori weren't the same people, and didn't totemise the _same_  
> >animal.
> 	I don't think anyone has argued for that at all.

I couldn't tell what people were arguing at when I made my original posting;
this was back when I thought everyone agreed what an elk was.  I was merely
spelling out the "Pralori :: elk" link (not explicitly stated in G:G), since
I couldn't see where else people were misplacing the beasties.  This is
getting a bit beside(r) the point, though, other than to bludgeon home that
I wasn't making the Spurious Argument I was being accused of.  (Though I
ask for several hundred other offences to be taken into consideration.)

> Though I'm not sure what exact type of deer the Damali  
> worship, I'm sure it is a different genus from the Pralori animal,  
> and I'm also sure that the Damali beastie is much smaller. 

Back when I thought Pralori were el--  Alces alces, and Damali were red d--
Cervus elaphus, it all made Perfect Sense to me.  Could I make a plausible
case for having been Sandied?  ;-)  (Not that I've run a game anywhere near
Pralorela, so not a huge deal anyway.)  Maybe we should save the red deer
for Dragon Pass, where it even makes linguistic sense.  ("Heort"land.)

> 	Aren't there any small deer in Europe besides fallow? Fallow  
> seem to be _too_ small, from what I've heard. Whitetail deer are  
> reasonably-sized and well-antlered. They'd be suitable for Damali. 

Well, there are roe deer.  Even smaller.  Too small for what, if I can
ask this in mixed (not to say positively assorted) company?



From: (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Who's Infinite, then?
Message-ID: <>
Date: 31 Aug 94 10:41:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5962

> Well, like I said earlier, I think the _malkioni_ consider the IG to be the
> original owner of Law, since they identify him/it with the Creator. I see
> nothing strange in the Creator being the origin of Law. But of course
> theists might argue that the identification is wrong to begin with.

A Malkioni would say, "What's the One True God doing in this list of
pagan demons?"  A theist would say, "The Invisible God doesn't exist,
so he's not the origin of anything".  Only a crazed theorist or a
died-in-the-wool henotheist would made this sort of classification of
the IG along with "other gods".  And RQ3:5 gives a different original
origin (pardon the tautology) for Law, so not even all the crazed

> Why? I don't think the origin deities of Man, Beast etc ([...])
> were in the Court either, so why should Flamal be any
> different?

Exactly, that's the sticking point.  (For my theory, that is.)

What makes me unhappy about the Original Owner idea is that it seems to
depend of taking a fairly arbitrary set of runes, and giving the Infinity
rune to _their_ owners.  After all, do the Original Owners of say, the
Undeath/Hunger rune, the Cold rune, the Shadow rune, the dragonewt rune, etc,
plus the megasagans of non-God-Learner-crinkle-cut ones all have the Infinity
rune?  Presumably not.

Voting for Ex Officio membership of the Celestial Court for the Forms,


Subject: Praxian Animals
Message-ID: <9408311104.AA03815@Sun.COM>
Date: 31 Aug 94 11:05:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5963

Hi All 
	The question arose of what lives in Prax, especially carnivors.

1) Hyena (enough said)
2) Vultures and Condors (including the giant condors at Condor Crags; 
   see Borderlands gor details).
3) Griffins (a pride lives on top of he Block) and there would be others 
   where there were safe nesting sites.  
4) Hippogrifs may live/have lived in Prax (isn't one of the Rubble gates 
   called Hippogrif gate?).
5) Various Snakes including rattle snakes (so that shamans can use the 
6) Shadow Cats in various sizes (Prax is too barren to support large cats 
   but smaller species can continue to survive.  
7) Jackels and other small canine types.  
8) Rubble Runners (Omnivores!!!).
9) Apes and Monkeys (some are omnivores).  
10) Morocanth
11) Various Chaos Monsters
12) The occassional Manticore
13) The occassional Wyrm (see Griffin Gate in the Rubble)
14) Men (including Trolls & Dwarves etc).  

OK some of the above are intelligent which was not the spirit of the question.  Also I suspect some of you will be able to add to this list, but at least it
forms a good basis.  It also proves that the food chain is complete, otherwise 
there would be precious little to prey on the vast wild herds occassionally 



From: (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Numerous spellings of the lion-eagle-type-thing.
Message-ID: <>
Date: 31 Aug 94 11:15:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5964

Pam Carlson:
> Does anyone know where the story of horses' devolution from birds can be 
> found?

From Hippogriffs, in fact...  It's mentioned in GoG.  I can't recall a
fuller version, though it's alluded to in various places, such as in
the Zorak Zoran cult writeup, he being one of the culprits.  It doesn't
come up in GRAY, sadly.  What I find odd about this origin is that it
_doesn't_ relate birds on the one hand, to griffins, hippogriffs, and
horses on the other.  Except via King Gryphon's (unacknowledged)
descent from Yelm, I suppose.

> >In the Godtime there'd have been lions, too, but they're
> >gone. All that is left are humans, morocanth, and hyenas.

> Are there any aerial predators, like griffins or really big raptors?

There's the family of griffins at the Block, though they may just about
unique, in Prax.



From: (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: Beastly tricks.
Message-ID: <>
Date: 31 Aug 94 17:38:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5966

Pam Carlson in X-RQ-ID: 5949

>Does anyone know where the story of horses' devolution from birds can be 

Off the top of my head: "Gods of the Sky" in Wyrm's Footnotes and the Yelm
write-up in White Wolf. I seem to recall a brief allusion to it in King of
Sartar as well, but don't quote me on that.

>Do hyaenas have get respect from humans due to their association with the 

Hyenas are associated with Trickster? I thought that was coyotes? Anyway,
such an association would _not_ get them any respect.
While we're on the subject - does anyone know if there are any Trickster
worshippers in Prax? Native ones, I mean. Perhaps Raven from the Three
Feathered Rivals would qualify?

I liked your initiation description, BTW.

(      Jonas Schiott                                   )
(      Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria      )
(      Goteborgs Universitet                           )


From: (S.Phillips)
Subject: Boons-a-maloon, subcult of Hortair
Message-ID: <>
Date: 31 Aug 94 13:57:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5967

>     I just received my RQ-Con Compendium today, and have read it from 
>front to back.  Yes, people should definitely shell out the $15 to 
>purchase one.  I only regret that I didn't ask David to put his 
>autograph in it.

What.. All of them? Surely, there wouldn't have been room..

;-) Sam, x. NSBS.

PS: I thought that Moonboats were driven by the power of Forstar, dwarvern God
of indigestion. Or was it Owtbord, god of ruined picnics.. Or Hortair, god
of Godlearner discussions.. Hmm, p639, WtFwTqA of was it p789 of BaSt:AirD?

keep taking the tablets %^)


From: (ian i. gorlick)
Subject: Wapiti/red deer
Message-ID: <>
Date: 31 Aug 94 04:55:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5968

From Alison Place, not Ian Gorlick

Concerning the red deer/wapiti status, there is disagreement concerning whether 
the European and North American populations are subspecies of Cervus elaphus, or 
two separate species, Cervus elaphus (Europe and Western Asia) and C. canadensis 
(North America and Eastern Asia).  The dividing line between the two is in the 
Tien Shan mountains in western China.  I rather think that they are two species, 
based on the stated differences in mating calls, colour patterns, average weight 
and gestation period.
Since both have been imported to New Zealand, it is quite possible that a North 
American population is what Peter Metcalfe is seeing, but still called by the 
European common name. These bulls can run to 450kg and a shoulder height of 150 
cm, with 12-point antlers, versus a maximum weight of 300kg and height of 127cm 
for the European sp.  At any rate, I'll bet that Irish Murphy's deer are North 
American wapiti!


From: (ian i. gorlick)
Subject: Moose & Asses
Message-ID: <>
Date: 31 Aug 94 04:54:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5969

Sandy Petersen: "While a  
moose is manifestly big enough and strong enough to put the kibosh on  
your station wagon, they don't _do_ it. But anyone with the slightest  
bit of wilderness savvy knows to keep away from elk in the wrong  

Sorry to disagree with you Sandy, but...
Up in Newfoundland and northern Ontario and Quebec, where moose are 
common, people know to be very careful in rutting season. If you see a 
moose on the road, you stop your car or truck, turn off the headlights 
and motor, and DO NOT HONK THE HORN. Then you wait patiently for the 
moose to move. The horn, or sometimes just the roar of the motor, may 
antagonize a bull in rut, and if it does then he will trash your 
vehicle. In fact, moose in rut have been known to attack 18 wheelers and 
even locomotives.

Moose hsunchen should be regarded as somewhat more excitable than Storm 
Bull berserkers with even less concern for personal safety. 

Make use of the common American misconception about the mighty moose. 
I suggest that GMs should cheerfully use moose and moose hsunchen. Let 
the players foolishly consider them nothing more serious than 
'Bullwinklings'. Then let the moose-men show their true nature and scare 
the s--t out of the party. 

Sandy again: "I'm not sure  
where native wild burros live on Earth. There are some wild asses in  
the midEast, but I betcha they're not quite the same."

The asiatic ass is found in Syria, Iran, Northern India, and Tibet. The 
african ass is found in Sudan, Ethiopia, and Somalia. (Encyclopedia of 
Mammals, Facts on File, 1985)

For those who think of burros as small, you should realize that the 
common burro is actually a dwarf variety of the wild ass. The wild ass 
masses in at almost 300kg, as big or bigger than the zebras. 


From: (S.Phillips)
Subject: Vinga Wind-sister, Vonga She-man, Fluffy-bunny-wunny-daisy-waisy-Voria
Message-ID: <>
Date: 31 Aug 94 15:37:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 5970


Bryan J. Maloney on Vinga:
>As for Vinga, I have ALWAYS seen her as Orlanth's sister.  What evidence is
>there that she is Orlanth's daughter?  I see her as one of the many unsung
>and underappreciated daughters of Umath.  She is an Orlanth "subcult" in
>many Theyalan cultures because they just can't figure her out otherwise.

This is interesting. As a person interested in all things Vingan this makes a
lot of sense. Probably more sense than the Orlanth daughter idea. This way she
is more independent and has more reason to be so. 

>"Vinga Wind-Sister", who arranged the marriage for her
>little brother, Orlanth

I'm not sure that most Orlanthi would like the Idea of Vinga being older than
Orlanth. I am sure they would see here as the wayward LITTLE sister. I
can see Orlanthi's telling stories to their children of Orlanth's "naughty
little sister".. Maybe I just love a cliche..
>However, she's also a hell-raiser and is invoked, by men and women alike,
>when people decide to throw a real rip-snorter of a party.

Where does the vengeance come in. Is she a rip-roarer because she is trying
to hide her sorrow? Why is she so angry? I do not protest againsed Vinga being
a party Animal but I do think she should have a serious and deadly side.
I see her as a protector of wayward women. Probably *from* male party animals.

>Vinga also has been known to take Orlanth down a peg or two when it looks like
>he's been neglecting his duties to Ernalda.

Yes. I like this. She is a hothead. But I would like her to be smarter than
Orlanth. Able to show him up in an argument. Make him rant, stutter and cry.
The way only a sister can. "Brotherly love? Pah! Let me tell you...[cut]"

My idea of Vinga is as a cult for Orlanthi women who do not fit the traditional
submisive gender role. The adventerous, the abused, the angry, the lesbians,
the intellectuals, the party-animals, the man-haters, the female cross-dressers,the tom-boys.. Put them all together and you end up with a dangerously motivated
and explosive mix of people. Banned from most Geo's no doubt..

This fits nicely with Bryan's idea of Vinga the Goddess. Perhaps she was abused
by Umath and is a father hater. She would love Orlanth as a brother but hate
him as a father-figure. She would protect and honour her brother, but dishonour
and disobey her king. This way she becomes akin to a Stormbull for women without
the chaos hunting and macho bullshit (pun intended ;-). More cunning, more
disruptive and a great source of game fun, and the kind of cult my female 
players would want to join. (Oops, Godlearner inside showing up again)..  

This got me thinking.


VONGA : Godess of wayward men (subcult of Vinga)

(Well, if the women can have one.. what about the men?)

Vonga was originally Orlanth's baby brother, Vengarth. Over protected by his
mother and "different" from an early age. As he grew up it became clear that he
had a very strong feminine streak and declared at his initiation his intention
to become a woman by attending the court with a painted face and keys apon his
belt, proclaiming his new name. Orlanth "Stormed" out, disowning him.
  Since this day Vonga has lived outside the main hall, staying with his big
sister Vinga who has protected him from the wrath of his brother. Through a
power of the Mobility rune, gained through many hard quests he has slowly been
turning into a women. 
  Followers of Vonga are derided and cursed by all. They tend to congregate in
towns, unable to live the life they were destined for on their homestead. They
have an association with Uleria who gave them the secret of womenly-love, and
of course Vinga who took them in and protects them from their kin. They 
constantly HeroQuest to discover and claim for themselves the secrets of 
  Many an Orlanthi swear-word includes Vonga, or the "Vongan Path". Though
not outside the law like an Eurmal, no one apart from other Vongans would be
outraged or worried about the beating or murder of a Vongan. That is, apart
from the Vingans (- not a bunch I would like to Piss-off!..).

----------------------------End of PC Zone------------------------------------

On the subject of Orlanthi cults that begin with a "V"...


My Vorian is like a brownie leader (no not those elven folk, the girl guide
type - although there may be little between). She takes large packs of small
children on long adventures into the woods, they look after the small animals
and the pretty plants and flowers. They talk to trees and sit on toadstools.
(Sounds subversive to me!). She is bossy, loud, overbearing, sickeningly kind
and a *real* pain in the arse. I love her. My players hate her. Modelled on an 
Ex-Girlfreind, she is also far from Virginal ;-). I'm sure that Vorians were
some kind of unifrom.. I also think that they consort with elven types. Faerie
groves, cutesy-bunnies and all that what-not.. Baby-talk is compulsory,too. 
  I have a Vorian adventure for Varmandisaga. I must finish it and include it.

Eeeuuggghhh! Ptoo! That left a dirty taste in my mouth..


Sam. x.

Not Spam but Sam. Not David nor Divad. Not Vinga but Vonga.