From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 03 Sep 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk
X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
---------------------
From: duncan.hedderley@afrc.ac.uk (HEDDERLE)
Subject: Cults - back to the trees?
Message-ID: <3604380802091994_A16067_FRIR_118912061400*@MHS>
Date: 2 Sep 94 10:38:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6007
Hi
First, a disclaimer: I'm coming back to RQ after about 10 years away (or at
least only in infrequent contact), so my opinions might be tinged with nostalgia
or convenient forgetfulness. However...
All this cult discussion (eg the Vinga thread) seems a bit too PRECISE for my
taste. We're talking about myths and symbols here, and all this highfalutin'
theology takes the magic and mystery away. Detailed delineations of the subcults
and lesser gods in a pantheon might be appropriate for the more regulated/
sophisticated cultures, but out in Dragon Pass/Prax I wouldn't be surprised
if I rode into a village and found they were interpreting Vinga or the Garzeen
aspect of Issaries completely differently (Well, I s'pose I WOULD be surprised,
and maybe a bit offended, but I SHOULD accept the possibility). I don't know
how you'd fit this in with the RULES - either the cults have to take on a
more social aspect (OK, Vinga cult protects and supports it's type of people,
even if it doesn't have some unique magics to offer - just the usual stuff
available to all more-or-less Orlanthi), or to make them both flexible and
magically distinct we'd need some guidelines for Heroquesting (so that once
you've got your own interpretation of Vinga, you can go out and cook up - or
rather, try to get from/thru her Spirit - a Unique Magical Sales Package
((Gives an entirely new meaning to Medicine Bundle to all you economists out
there!)) ) - or alteratively some GM flexibility.
This also sems to stray onto the Decent Thief Cult thread - a thief cult
(with special magics for nicking stuff) seems unlikely (it doesn't fit into
the social ecology); but in a world like Glorantha there must be magics which
will help a thief (or there aren't many thieves!), so how do they get them?
Through spirit cults like the Black Fang maybe (could a powerful gangster
hire a shaman to track down a spirit to teach him some magical trick?), or
as a side-effect of hellraising cults like Orlanth Adventurous/Vinga. Niche
cults like Lanbril seem a bit unlikely (especially since RQ 3 tightened up
the requirements for recovering runemagic - somehow the idea of a Lanbril
temple, and high holy days seems dafter than moose to me)
Maybe I'm on entirely the wrong track here; maybe in a world like Glorantha
priests CAN just pray to one of their pantheon and get the inside story on
whether Vinga is Orlanth's sister (older or younger) or daughter, and whether
it's more appropriate that you throw great parties or gather in the harvest
to honour her
---------------------
From: pearton@unpsun1.cc.unp.ac.za (Dave Pearton)
Subject: The great David Scramble, part 1
Message-ID:
Date: 2 Sep 94 15:13:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6008
Phase One of the great David scramble is soon to be initiated - this avatar
of the primordial David and holder of the debased Dave rune is moving from
the burning depths of Pamaltela (aka South Africa) to the very borders of
Valind's glacier (aka Seattle). MAybe I'll finally get to see a moose.....
Phase two might be a problem, how do we persuade David Dunham to move to
South Africa ?
Henk, could you please suspend my subscription for about two weeks? Thanks,
I'll tell you when I have email access again.
Ah well,
Cheers
Dave
Not Pamaltela, but Pietermaritzburg, not moose, but Yak.
***********************************************************************
Dave Pearton * ....As I was saying before I
Biochemistry Dept. * was so rudely interrupted
University of Natal * by one of my multiple
Pietermaritzburg * personalities....
*
pearton@unpsun1.cc.unp.ac.za * Naked Lunch (W.S. Burroughs)
************************************************************************
---------------------
From: Bob.Luckin@tiuk.ti.com
Subject: Hippogriff -> horse
Message-ID: <9409021119.AA02576@ibrox.tiuk.ti.com>
Date: 2 Sep 94 11:19:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6009
Hi from Bob Luckin !
Pam Carlson asked (X-RQ-ID: 5949) :-
> Does anyone know where the story of horses' devolution from birds can be
> found?
I think the fullest explanation I have seen is in Wyrms Footnotes 11, p26,
in Greg's article on Yelm...
Yelm's original steed was King Griffin. After Yelm was slain, King Griffin
quarreled with other light gods and his children withdrew themselves from
being slaves to people who rode them. One of the feuds was over the treatment
of King Griffin's favourite child, Hippogriff. Yamsur, one of Yelm's sons
was allied to Hippogriff by oaths of friendship, but in several fights she
was abandoned by him and hurt.
First Storm Bull broke her fangs out of her mouth, and she could no longer
bite.
Then in a fight with Maran Gor her legs were broken and her claws ripped
from her feet. However Yamsur was able to replace her feet with hooves.
Later, Zorak Zoran tore off her golden wings and thus she could no longer
return to the sky.
Later still, she was broken by Hyalor Horsebreaker, a mere mortal (however,
he claimed descent from Yamsur, so this defeat was perhaps apposite). He
rescued her by changing her name and identity to Hippoi or Horse, and since
then her descendants have worked more for man than man has worked for the
horse.
When Yelm rose again, Hyalor accepted him, and he and Hippoi prospered in the
early years; this was the origin of the Pentan Nomads.
Hope this helps !
Cheers, Bob
--
Bob Luckin voly@tiuk.ti.com "Able was I ere I saw Corflu"
---------------------
From: paul@runegate.nacjack.gen.nz (Paul Heinz)
Subject: VarmandiSaga
Message-ID: <2e67cd44.runegate@runegate.nacjack.gen.nz>
Date: 2 Sep 94 01:11:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6010
Paul "RuneLord" Heinz here.
Sam Phillips
============
Hi Sam!
I've been running a Sartar campaign using the Varmandi as a base too.
I personally think it's the best RQ/Glorantha game I've ever run. This
doesn't mean it's that great objectively, just that my other RQ games
were worse in terms of Gloranthan feel and "accuracy". I'd like to
see your Varmandi saga and as an offering, here some highlights from
my game where I am giving much thought to a Kinstrife theme. If any of
my PCs are somehow reading this, stop now!
I'm running mine in 1614 after Starbrows rebellion and backdated the
Genertela Book stuff and stole bits from other places. In my game
Rastorlanth and many of the Varmandi carls died in the rebellion leaving
the Varmandi dominated by women who are tired of war. Thus Vastyr the
Gentle was elected to be Chief as he is the (henpecked) husband of the
local Ernalda priestess, Yolina. The Orlevings are Lunar allies and did
not fight the Lunars, rather they raided them and ruined the Varmandi
steads around Tarkalor keep, leaving an area that both clans now contest.
The Orlevs are suffering from population pressure and desire to expand.
Within there number, I have a group of especially nasty male Orlevings who
have formed a warband and are rabidly attempting to convince the rest of
the Orlevs to escalate from raiding and feuding to full scale war against
the Varmandi. As these Orlevs are known to be killers and wastrels, they
do not really have the favour of the present Orlev chief. They are also
believed to have slain the family of a member of the chief's bloodline who
was forced into a blood feud over some disputed property rights. Justice
was perverted as the warband Orlevs called for a Holmgang (they were in the
wrong but "Violence is always an option") and as they have a habit of maiming
the opposing champion, no-one wished to challenge them and the case was
dropped. The warband then proceeded to harass and threaten this family who
then left the Orlev lands to live in one of the not-too-ruined Tarkalor keep
ex-Varmandi steads but were fell upon and slain hideously. My PCs then had
a wild shadowcat that sometimes sleeps in their woodpile arrive with wounds
with long dead flesh in them. The slain Orlev family had largely become
hideously misshapen ghouls and a nasty draugr.
One of my favourite Orlev NPCs is "Gnokki the Cannibal". This is a huge
Orlev carl with twin red pigtails, filed teeth and foul demeanor. He is
known for biting the ears of his foes to "mark them" and rumoured to then
capture, torture, and eat them in secret to gain their strengths. I'm using
an idea of Paul Reilly's that if you act in proscibed chaotic ways, you
may fall prey to the Chaos God who the act is "sacred" to, thus Gnokki has
become a Cacodemon worshipper and is turning into an Ogre. He is indeed
gaining strength from his enemies and, whats more, he likes it. Like the
Cannibal cult, he likes to mark and then cultivate powerful enemies. One
of my PCs has been marked by Gnokki and it's makes him quite nervous. The
PCs found the Orlev warband near their lands after searching for a local
clanwoman (Erissa - the year wife of the village Storm Bull Ugbahn) with a
large amount of (assumedly) Lunar salt with them (Lunar pay for their
mercenary activities). They planned to salt the Varmandi lands (sacrilege
against Ernalda!). My reckless (we use Pendragon traits) three PCs charged
and attacked the camp of 12 Orlevings in the dark and rescued the about to
be raped Erissa (who took a real liking to the PC which caused no end of
trouble with Ugbahn but that's another story), one PC was knocked unconscious
by one blow from Gnokki and had his ear taken. He then left his body and had a
spirit vision, met Old Man Varmands ghost (spooky) and his dead father (even
spookier) who helped him and with the help of Ugbahn and brothers (who were
chasing their younger brother Ergi) showed up and helped to drive the warband
off. The Warband leader (Gnokki's cousin) had his throat slit by one PC but
managed to survive and be healed and I plan to have him come back with a
Kergan like scar and attitude.
My current plan is to involve the PCs in a HeroQuest style struggle. The
Orlev Storm Voice plans to interfere with a Varmandi fertility ritual which
is performed each Spring at the end of plowing time.
The Thunder brothers venture into Engiziland to capture the Boar of Plenty.
They then sacrifice it and spill it's blood on Esrola's fields to enrich them.
This ritual was performed by Old Man Varmand and each year, the new Orlanth
initiates are sent to capture a (magical) boar and bring it back (this idea
came via Davids' Blue Boar HeroQuest amongst other stuff). The Orlev Storm
Voice is questing to cast the questors in the roles of Vadrus's and Ragnaglar's
kin as opposed to Orlantha and his kin which will make the quest more magical,
for higher stakes, and much harder. For one, Barbeester Gor will challenge the
PCs (calling them unusual names like Vadrus, Gagarth, Molanni, and Ragnaglar).
I picture her in armour of ironwood bark, with a ver-de-gris'd copper shield,
a live hissing snake for a belt and a copper great axe with various shrivelled
(male) organs hanging from it accompanied by her half pig/half dog hunting
beasts (a la Fragment 1611 from Tales).
Anyway, enough for now. More later, if anybody's interested.
TTFN,
Paul "RuneLord" Heinz
--
=====================================================================
Paul Heinz
paul@runegate.nacjack.gen.nz
Auckland, New Zealand.
---------------------
From: jmedway@cs.utexas.edu (John Joseph Medway)
Subject: XO@#! Email Problems
Message-ID: <199409021328.NAA53521@darkwing.cs.utexas.edu>
Date: 2 Sep 94 03:28:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6011
John here, with Gloranthan Content = 0, and RQ Content = 0, but this seems the
easiest way to handle this problem (in other words - sorry for the interruption
of the Moose-Elk debate).
If you were expecting mail from me, (either because I previously threatened it,
or because you're psychic, or guess right) which didn't happen, or if you've had
mail to me (jjm@zycor.lgc.com or some variant thereof) bounce or go without
requested response, in the past few days, please let me know, and please resend
if necessary.
I "upgraded" the operating system on my workstation and email hasn't been quite
right since.
If the system still "blows chunks", or "chunders" for our friends who are
Northern Hemisphere-challenged, please use the address below:
I now return you to the Great Moose-Elk debate. "Hey Rocky,..."
BTW: Anybody want to start a month-long debate on the appropriateness of
Duckman as a model for Gloranthan ducks? (Makes a better fit than Donald,
I'd say.) Or howabout Cornfed for Pig Hsunchen?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| jmedway@cs.utexas.edu | university of texas at austin | 512.292.2325 |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Every evil has been the result of insane, selfish greed!" -- Duckman |
| "Well, *duh*." -- Cornfed |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
From: T.J.Minas@soton.ac.uk (T.J.Minas)
Subject: Humakti musings...
Message-ID: <199409021652.RAA02299@willow.soton.ac.uk>
Date: 2 Sep 94 18:52:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6012
Hello again everyone.
I just SO love Bank Holiday weeks, when
the mail machine is unavailable! Alison Place, I agree with you
about the effect of reading 10 days worth of Digest at once!
A couple of random thoughts first. Do the Humakti of Ygg's Isles
have tales of Sword Maidens descending to the battlefields to take
the slain noble warriors up to Humakt's Einherjar? Whether riding
winged beasts or just flying, it sounds like a good tale!
On another note, I was intrigued to read Alison Cloak of Sankes
story, in which Vinga goes in for sword dancing. Having watched
the TV version of the Edinburgh Military Tattoo just recently,
I was inspired by the concept of Sartarite Humakti doing sword
dances. It would seem that this custom has spread to all the
Orlanthi!
Elk/Moose/Whatever
==================
Could everyone who has a real strong opinion on this just outline
the following details. I don't want any Latin, or "common" names
that will set off arguments again, but "Just the Facts, Ma'am"
(To quote another older US TV show!)
Details required:-
Name of Hsunchen tribe (Eg Aleci, Pralori etc)
Description (in terms of size, habits, eating habits, etc, not
RW analogues) of the Totemic beast
Area(s) where these guys can be found
How many of them there are in each of these areas
Any other points on them.
I think this would help clarify exactly what all you guys have
been arguing about for the last few weeks!
Nomad Gods
==========
Possessing, as I do, an original version of this boardgame, anyone
with queries on it is welcome to e-mail me with questions. I don't
promise to know the answers to everything, but I will try.
Thief Cults
===========
A couple of thoughts here. Only "civilized" societies would ever
have thieves who considered themselves part of society. All other
cultures would view thieves as outsiders, and thus, definitely
they would fall under Trickster!
People (In these "non-civilized" societies) who stole from
other societies/clans/etc probably aren't thieves, and would
worship (eg) Orlanth Adventurous. Remember, these guys would NOT
see themselves as thieves, and would be mortally insulted if you
described them as such. No way would they worship a Thief god.
Thieves in civilized societeies thus tend to exist in towns
and cities. Even here, they are unlikely to ever have huge numbers
of people willing to cooperate (Thieves Guilds, sure, but they
might well be rivals!), and so even fairly large cities won't have
anything much bigger than a shrine. Especially if many of the
thieves follow different deities. EG some might follow Trickster,
others Lanbril, yet others Orlanth or Donandar, the City God,
Ancestor Worship.
Why, then, is anyone moaning about the lack of a decent Thief
God? The reason that there isn't a really powerful thief God('s
cult) is because (Circularity strikes!) there ISN'T a really
powerful thief God! Lanbril in the RQ" Pavis writeup was far too
powerful.
Renewing Rune Spells
====================
On Alex Ferguson's point re the ability to get a spell from a
temple if you conduct some unknown locally ceremony to regain (eg)
a Sever Spirit from a Shrine. Two points: a) It should be at a
pretty big penalty; and b) Subcult/Associate deity spells should
NEVER be available from a shrine that doesn't actually provide
the spell.
That's about it for now, once I sit down and read all the printouts
I'll get back to you!
Ian Gorlick, Thanatar/Vivamort cults please (Beg, beg or I'll send
the Gatherer of Souls round!)
Bye folks
Tim Minas
---------------------
From: Brian.Dickinson@def.bae.co.uk (Brian Dickinson)
Subject: RuneQuest Dailys and Morokanth
Message-ID: <9409021513.AA08511@server_a.YP.stevadoma>
Date: 2 Sep 94 15:13:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6013
Arghh!
Chaos demons temporarily hid my email address in the void and
I missed out on the RQ dailies from Wednesday 31 August and Thursday
1 September.
Could some kind soul please mail me these dailies, particularly the
start of the Morokanth thread!
As to morokanth being particularly vunerable to missile fire, I
would think that in the unfortunate event of being caught in the open
in daylight, by say Zebra riders, the morokanth would sort through
the herd and line up all the zebra rider slaves and herdmen in the
front row. Might make the raiders a little less inclined to shoot
from a distance, especially if they recognise any close relatives .
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Bless Earth and Vinga
Message-ID: <9409021902.AA01636@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 2 Sep 94 19:02:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6014
Bryan J. Maloney asserts:
> First, Bless Earth is necessary to merely get a "normal" crop in Genertela.
Does anyone have a source for the "Truth" of this? Several people have
suggested it, I know, but most of them have been selling something. Hard
to tell if this is a Type One or Type Two Flat Statement.
> In Pameltela, since the Father of the Land still lives, things are naturally
> fertile, and Bless Earth gives you an excessive crop.
This would seem more likely if either: Pameltela actually _was_ more fertile
than Genertela; or if there was notably less earth worship in Pameltelan
argicultural societies than in Genertelan ones. (Maybe this latter is true,
though.)
> As for Vinga, I have ALWAYS seen her as Orlanth's sister. What evidence is
> there that she is Orlanth's daughter?
That her cult is (Gregged to be) so much like Orlanth's suggests it; if they
were siblings, one would expect greater differtiation, unless they were
actually twins... (Yes, I am aware that fraternal twins are no more
genetically similar than other siblings, but I bet most Orlnathi mythologists
aren't.) Not that she appears in the KoS chart in either (or indeed any)
position.
> I see her as one of the many unsung
> and underappreciated daughters of Umath. She is an Orlanth "subcult" in
> many Theyalan cultures because they just can't figure her out otherwise.
Saying that Vinga has a particular nature, it's just that her worshippers
fail to understand it correctly, seems a somewhat odd line of argument.
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Here, here comes the flood...
Message-ID: <9409021917.AA01831@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 2 Sep 94 19:17:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6015
Devin's Homonculus:
> Alex writes:
> "Nope. Isn't the idea of non-derivative mythology somewhat like the old
> Rolf Harris line, "Here's an old English folk song which I've just written"?"
> True enough...and I don't want to turn this into a major debate since I am
> not THAt upset with it....but that particular myth seemed a bit TOO
> derivative.
If that's a derivative myth, what, I wonder, is to pluck a couple of examples
which happen to wander into my forebrain, the reputed properties of the Styx,
or the name of Teshnan sun or... those with a higher product or Gloranthan
Mythology Lore and Terran Mythology Lore will be able to provide more
examples.
If there's a problem with the flood myth, it might be that the Terran
analogue is very familiar, if not overly so, to all us (lapsed or otherwise)
Judeo-Christian tradition types.
> Avivath seems rather Jesus-like to me....but I would have only been cheesed
> out if Greg had had him nailed to a Death Rune.
Should I mention that Greg conspicuously Failed to Refute Nick's theory
that Hrestol was crucified? (I don't much like that one myself, though.)
> [...] Therefore, I am still perplexed why Yelm
> would choose to cleanse the world with an impure element (Water), using a
> Rebellus Terminus vehicle (Rain) to cause to flood a Lower and therefore
> unclean deity (Oslira).
I don't think the Dara Happans, and certainly not Pelentonius, would agree
with these characterisations. Just because the Theyalans are keen on rain
doesn't mean the Dara Happans (necessarily) dislike it (under all
circumstances). I think their attitude towards Water is essentially like
that towards Earth: it's a Good Thing, pragmatically, though without the
Purity of the Sky Realm. The fact than rain originates from the sky is
probably taken by the DHns as a sign that it's subject to the rule of the
sky powers.
> One would think that, considering all of these impure elements have ganged up
> on Darra Happa, that rather than a cleansing action, this would have been
> regarded as an invasion.
When one gets Truly Seriously Hosed by some adverse occurrence, in order to
explain it you'd either have to say: our God did it, he was mightily
peeved at us; or some other god did it, ours wasn't able to protect us from
it.
Alex.
---------------------
From: chaosium@ix.netcom.com (Sam Shirley)
Subject: New e-mail address
Message-ID: <199409022016.NAA05539@ix.ix.netcom.com>
Date: 2 Sep 94 06:16:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6016
Chaosium has changed its e-mail address. The old address:
chaosium@netcom.com
has now changed to:
chaosium@ix.netcom.com.
Please change your records to reflect this.
Our other address, chaosium@aol.com, remains the same.
Please use the chaosium@aol.com address for all routine correspondence.
The chaosium@ix.netcom.com account is only intended for large files,
such as manuscripts, maps, eps files, tiff images, and other large things
which AOL does not handle well. I will NOT be answering routine mail sent
to the chaosium@ix.netcom.com account.
Chaosium's official internet address in chaosium@aol.com. Please do not
give out the chaosium@ix.netcom.com address.
Thank you muchly,
Sam Shirley