From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 06 Sep 1994, part 3
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Hyalorings and other proto-Pentans
Message-ID:
Date: 6 Sep 94 08:23:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6073
Peter Metcalfe, the Blue Wizard, in X-RQ-ID: 6023
> What really puzzles me is that the Hyalorings are a seperate tribe from the
> Jenarong Horsefolk. I can understand that the Hyalorings were the closest to
> the first council and that their myths of the origin of horses would be taken
> as gospel.
> The Dara happan myth is entirely different, given that the Jenarong called the
> Warlords Gamatae suggests that they were descended from the Nivorahings
> (Gamatae <-- Gamaratae). Also Jenerong gets the Sandals of Protection from
> Nivorah which suggests that the Dara happans are correct.
DHBE answers this. Map 1 describes the Dawn Age population of Peloria,
and has the area of Saird circled in and the note "? Theoretical Home"
inside. Saird was the land of Nivorah, and the logical origin of the
Hyalorings.
The Hirenmador nation is shown to live in Henjari, Vonlath and southern
Kostaddi, the current Hyalorings sit in Darjiin and Doblia, a tribe called
Veshtargos (described as cannibals in Vuranostrum's aka Leaps over Walls'
reign) occupies Esvuthil, and a nation called Lenshis occupies Dikoria
and the Darsen Hills. There is a nation called Lendarshis around Lake
Oronin, and one called Kashis in the lower Arcos valley. Towards the Redlands
in the upper Arcos valley dwells a nation called Ungariong, and on that
region of the Arcos "Starlight Ancestors" are marked - Vettebbe?
The Redlands and Jarasan seem to be quite empty - similar to the Wastes
before the Battle of Necklace Horse.
> In many ways this begins to parallel all the stories of the creation of man I
> have seen. The Galanin are descended from Lofak, the Jenarong are from Dara
> Happa whereas the Hyalorings are from Genert's wasted land. Are there any
> other sources of horse that we don't know about?
The Hyalorings, Hirenmador and other Pentan tribes all originated in
Peloria, it seems. Maps of Dawn Age Genertela show Genert's Garden (Pent
and the Wastelands) as the Chaos Wastes, and generally uninhabited. That
neither part was that uninhabitable was proven later, first after Argentium
Thri'ile.
I wonder when and how the Kralori features entered the horse tribes of
Pent. After Argentium Thri'ile they had plenty of wives, so no raiding
for them or slaves was necessary. A few generations later this could
have changed, and they could have raided Ignorance.
However, there could have been a mongol-like nation of horse nomads
west of the Yankley Bore which entered the politics of the Dara Happa
descended horse nomads and mingled with them. Their horses would
have been of another myth of origin.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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From: gkca16@udcf.gla.ac.uk (S.Phillips)
Subject: Colymar, Varmandi, Taral & Zarran
Message-ID: <21215.199409030140@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 3 Sep 94 03:40:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6049
Hi from Sam
-----------
I have been giving a lot of thought to the Varmandi re-write, trying
to get my original stuff to match Greg's maps and KoS.
Just a few thoughts containing a few juicy map tidbits and anomalies:-
REDBIRD
-------
It seems to me that Redbird was Colymar until two of the Three-Tree clans were
forced to join the Malani by the Lunars - Lysan and Namoldin(g) - in 1613.
But who owns it after 1613? There are a few options,
1) It has been taken over by the Lunar Army. Quite plausible this one but
there is no proof anywhere.
2) It is still held by the Colymar. Well, the Antorling "Apple" Clan are
still in the Arfritha vale and the birches of "over two ridges, from the
place where birches grow" are only a mile(ish) west of Redbird which KoS
claims is still owned by the Antorlings. Perhaps the Antorlings hold
it. Possible, but I highly doubt that the Lunars would be into this.
Also, Greg's map contradicts Kos on this, putting the extent of the
Antorling lands a good few miles short of the birches.
3) The Malani hold it. Three sub possibilities;
i) The Lysan(g) hold it. Possible as they live to the north and west of
Redbird around Larnste's Table. Unlikely as they probably still hold
some loyalty to the Colymar.
ii) The Namoldin(g) hold it. Also possible as they hold the land to the
west of Redbird. Unlikely for the same reasons.
iii) It has been given to the Malani, *but* the former Colymar tribes
cannot be trusted to use it in the interest of the Malani and so
has to be policed in some way, either by Lunars or other Malani or
both. My favourite theory.
Of course, these theories seem to revolve around the fact that the Malani
are in the Lunar Pocket. A fact I appear to have taken for granted, but
now I come to think of it, I fear I have no proof for. Did I read it or
did I make it up? The only reference I can find, somewhat hurriedly (If
anyone could shed lighjt on this I would be grateful) is that they were
not among Starbrow's Rebellion. As this was concluded around Larnste's
Table "with the Lunar army visible below" I would assume that the Lysan
were involved making them less of a candidate for the Redbird holders *and*
perhaps it was at Redbird that the Lunar's were camped at.
I could well be wrong in my assumption that the Malani were not great
resisters of the Lunars, in which case many more of the above scenarios
could be possible. I still doubt that it is Colymar though.
My campaign has Redbird Policed by the Lunars and ruled by an Orleving. My
reasons are not really logic rather than story-preference. With the Orlevings
holdin 2 forts around the Varmandi it makes them a real nasty enemy. Also as
the Varmandi are the *most* warlike of the Colymar it would seem good politics
for the Lunars to put their sworn enemies between them and the rest of Lunars
in Boldhome and Jonstown.
Larnste's Table
---------------
Apart from being a big hill with a flat top, what *is* Larnste's table and
what does it have to do with the affore mentioned God of mobility? Is this
where Larnste stopped to chat with "the ancient one" perhaps the Ormthane
in Ormthane vale? (if indeed Ormthane does mean Dragon King). Perhaps they
shared a goblet or two apon this very spot?
Black Altar
-----------
What is this? It doesn't appear on Greg's maps other than being close to the
grave of Iskell Varmandson where he was done-in by Orlev One-eye. Quite why
this would justify a "black altar" I have no Idea. This is, I fear, a red
herring. Why is there a road leading to it on the Apple Lane map? There isn't
one on Greg's Colymar map. Are Black Altar and Tarndisi's grove the only
two altar's in the Colymar lands? My advice would be to tippex them out of
the Apple Lane map and forget them until someone comes up with something better.
Lunar Manors
------------
There are a two of these marked on Greg's map. One by the Swan River and the
road south of Runegate. One just south of Old man in the Nymie Vale. There is
a Lunar Rune drawn on the Runegate one. Does this signify some sort of temple?
What is meant by a "manor"? A farm, a Roman style manor house, a semi military
base?
Askander`s ridge
----------------
Haha! How Gregged can you get! This is mentioned in the WMFTM in
Genertela:Player's book. It refers to "trolls ... that ate all the sheep on
Askander's Ridge". I took this to mean that this ridge is probably somewhere
around the Varmandi's lands.. Oh, but NO! It lies directly south of Boldhome,
probably just west of Richberry Vale and Lookout and south of Ingan. Not
even Colymar land, let alone Varmandi. This is also the place marked as where
Barngradus, second Colymar King, fought Borngold the Usurper (c. 1350ish?).
Hound Knob
----------
A large hill directly 4-5 miles south of apple lane, just north of Tarndisi's
Grove. It doesn't appear on the Apple Lane map. At least not the new one.
There is two contenders on the old map. I recon this is what the large lump
marked on Jon Quaife's map in TotRM5 is although I reckon his pen slipped when
he named the dragon-newty-runey-thingy Hound Knob instead. The splodge next
to it says "Agbor`s Stead" or "Asbor's" depending on how you read the
handwriting.Queen Leika is killed at the Battle of Hound Knob c1638. If
Larnste's Table looks like a table I wonder what this looks like?
Varmandi Tula
-------------
The main Varmandi settlement is at Oakton which is derictly between Swanton,
Tarkalor keep and Rainbow Mounds. Solid Oak Stead is 2 milesish North east
of Oakton. Both are on or around the swan river. Swan is on the Swan river;
Apple lane is at least a mile south of the southern split. The Swan river
serves as the south boundry for the Varmandi lands. Sadly, I had the whole
lot in the Ormthane Vale. The Orlevings swamped the south Ormthane Vale in 1400.
Tarkalor Keep
-------------
It is unclear from Greg's map whether this is or isn't part of the Varmandi
Lands. Minaryth Blue was born here in 1597 and he was a Hiording (Swanson).
Greg's map puts it either within or just North of the Varmandi lands. The
Orlevings came this way around 1400ish. It has 1572? written beside it.
I wonder what that means.. Was this a look-out post againsed the Lunar king
Phargentes of Tarsh and his army? Did Tarkalor ever stay here? He was married
to the Feathered Horse Queen in 1575 so if he did he probably didn't stay long.
Tarkalor Keep isn't mentioned in the Zin Letters either. I would assume that it
*was* built by Tarkalor in 1572 who had been king for 3yrs. Who owns it now?
The Lunars? Why would they leave a valuable keep to the Colymar? Being it
is only 5 miles from Runegate, how did it escape being caught up in
the Lunar Attack of 1602?
Apple Lane
----------
"..on the traditional boundry between the Colymar and the Malani". Greg's
Colymar map would mark it out as well within the Hiording boundry. Is it
independent? Which clan if any did Gringle represent on the high council?
(Alex has my copy - Alex?).
Zarran & Taral Wars & Karandoli clan
------------------------------------
I think these started in 1400ish when the Orlevings moved south through the
Ormthane Vale, forcing the Varmandi out. Earlier in the beginning of the 1300s
the Varmandi had been forced out of the Afritha vale by the Namoldin, Lysan
and Antorling(?) (or whoever they were before). With the advancing Orlevings the
Varmandi saw this is a good opertunity to try to reclaim some of their old land
and duly attacked the Karandoli(?). Venharl was king of the Colymar at this time
and also a Karandoli. He died at the beginning of the Zarran Wars (c.1418).
The Zarran wars ended with the destruction of the Karandoli tribe and the
passing of the Malani tribe. This contradicts what is said in "Lost Clans"
which says they arrived *after* the passing of the Malani and were destroyed
by Jenstli clan magic. Also, if the Karandoli clan *were* destroyed around 1420
then where was Ortossi (Colymar king 1479-1491) from? The Varmandi also claim
to have destroyed the Karandoli in the Taral War (supposedly before the Zarran
Wars). Confused? You will be... in The Second Wave, the Zarran war is said to
be over by 1360. If the Karandoli were in the Brambleberry Hills then they
weren`t even the Varmandi's Neighbours. Aaarrrgghh!
Any thoughts? Corrections? Flames?...
Cheers!
Sam. x
NSBS