Bell Digest v940911p1

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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sun, 11 Sep 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.

X-RQ-ID: index

6145:  = 
 - cult writeups
6146:  = 
 - Thanks, and heres more!
6147:  = 
 - Vinga, a la Bryan.
6148:  = 
 - Deer matrices.
6149:  = 
 - Wrong temple, wrong islands.
6150:  = 
 - Pelorian/Pelandan Potshots.
6151:  = 
 - Praxian carnivores;
6152:  = 
 - Spirits; fertility
6153:  = 
 - PJW's Father Told Me...
6154:  = 
 - You say goodbye, and I say hello
6155:  = 
 - Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 10 Sep 1994, part 1

---------------------

From: severian@CERF.NET
Subject: cult writeups
Message-ID: <199409100528.WAA10546@nic.cerf.net>
Date: 9 Sep 94 15:28:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6145

For Ian Gorlick - please e-mail me the writeups you have for Vivamort, etc.


---------------------

From: DCOWLING@UTMEM1.UTMEM.EDU
Subject: Thanks, and heres more!
Message-ID: <01HGXB0ANBZ69TE54L@UTMEM1.UTMEM.EDU>
Date: 9 Sep 94 16:47:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6146

Thanks for all the responses on determining magical properties :)

Does anyone have a cult work up, or information on Yelornans?  I have a new 
player to play a female in a Prax campaign, and thought that cult would be 
best.  Are there Babeester Gor in Prax?

Also, I've been reading up on the old HeroQuesting rules, and it says that 
typically, a shadow of Humakt is faced as the PC "overcomes death" to enter and 
return from the God Plane.  If this is true, and coupled with the fact that 
when Humakti are dead, they are DEAD, do Humakti HeroQuest(I know Arkat did).  
If so, is it a shadow of Humakt that they face as well.  

Other than the obligatory die rolls in the Cults book, what do you do if a pc 
is qualified for Rune Lord status(like a Humakti).  I know there has to be an 
openning, but it seems so cheap for the GM to say there is an openning, and 
just make the die rolls.  Right now, I am making a near Rune Level Humakti 
undertake two LARGE missions for the temple as cult service.  If he is 
succesfsful in both should this be enough?  I kinda wanted to ask some deep, 
cult-morality type questions as well.  opinions??

David (Ratboy) Cowling
dcowling@utmem1.utmem.edu


---------------------

From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Vinga, a la Bryan.
Message-ID: <9409100117.AA19600@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 10 Sep 94 01:17:20 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6147


Bryan J. Maloney:
> Note that while [Vinga's] is written as an independent "cult",
> its political position is as an Orlanth subcult--basically, the relationship
> is more complex than simple Godlearner constructs will allow.

Also pretty much a subcult in rules terms, as Bryan describes it, so I'm
confused as to what all the argy-bargy about the s-word was.

> Elmal:  Orlanth's loyal thane gives his sister-in-arms the spell Sunspear.  
> This is only in lands where Elmal is worshipped instead of Yelmalio.

I think it's generally agreed that Elmal doesn't _have_ Sunspear, so I'd
suggest Catseye, as per Yelmalio.  Or rather, instead of, as I can't see
why they'd be associates, if their mythic relationship were as described.

> Eurmal:  Eurmal and Vinga had many adventures together.  He grants Charisma 
> and Remove Penis to his sometimes companion.

Since Vingans are generally without penises, isn't the latter spell somewhat
useless?  To (boringly) adhere to the usual relationship between associates,
I'd read "and" as "or", here.

Alex.

---------------------

From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Deer matrices.
Message-ID: <9409100133.AA20141@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 10 Sep 94 01:33:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6148


Mike.Dickison tabulates:
> Latin           USA             Europe           Description

> Cervus sp       Elk             Wapiti           Large red forest deer

Not quite:

> Latin           Confused Colonials   Native Americans       British

> Cervus sp       Elk                  Wapiti                 Red deer

Alex.

---------------------

From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Wrong temple, wrong islands.
Message-ID: <9409100555.AA20702@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 10 Sep 94 05:55:31 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6149


Colin Watson quoting:
> Alex on renewing Rune spells:
> >I don't see there being a _huge_ problem where it's simply a case of
> >which spells a particular temple "stocks", for example, if an Orlanth
> >Thunderous Priest wants to renew Cloud Call at an Orlanth Adventurous
> >temple that doesn't provide it, if you have the manpower and knowhow to
> >do the appropriate ritual.  (Big if.)

> I think this would tend to alter the temper of the temple giving it a more
> "Thunderous" aspect. This might have undesirable consequences for the Orlanth
> Adventurous worshippers unless the temple size is sufficient to support two
> aspects.

Yup, I think that's exactly what the long-term effects would be.  I was
thinking of one-offs, where the natives just stood suspiciously by as the
differently-aspected newcomers did their stuff, and the two worshipped
entirely separately.

> If you go through the necessary rituals to get Great Parry from what was
> initially a Bless Crops shrine (whatever that might require) then the locals
> may find afterwards that they can't get Bless Crops from it anymore; only
> Great Parry (until someone of equally heroic stature switches it back).

Yup, but there you have two aspects which as substantially different
(different goddesses, in fact), and which are somewhat "opposed" (Benign/
Malign Earth).  Where the gods/aspects are more similar/compatible, it
should be progressively less drastic.

> >Whether temple _size_ as such is a particular handicap over and above this
> >I'm not sure.

> I feel that there must be sufficient worship to maintain the spell-links to
> the godplane.

Yeah, but the question is, over what period of time does a temple have to
have a given "volume" of worship, in order to function at a particular
"size".  My feeling is that the RQ3 rules, which basically say that you
have to wait until the next HHD before your size is "reassessed" is probably
an oversimplification, and too strict.

Jonas Schiott confesses in reponse to my assertion (about the IG as a
rune source):
> >Only a crazed theorist or a
> >died-in-the-wool henotheist would made this sort of classification

> Yes, well, I might very possibly be one or the other. Then again, I might
> not. Who can tell?

Hard to tell from here, but I was claiming that few _Gloranthans_ would do
so, if this wasn't evident...  I take it as a given that most of us are
crazed theorists, died-in-the-wool henotheists, or both. ;-)

> I think I lost you there. Wasn't your theory that only Celestial Courtiers
> had Infinity?

Yup.

> But as I also mentioned in an earlier posting, Sandy has
> stated for the record (or at least for the daily) that the assigning of
> Infinity versus doubled runes is _not_ done in any orderly fashion.

I missed both of you saying this.  I thought Sandy cleaved to the Original
Source/Non-Original Source distinction?

> So what're we quibbling about, anyway?

> I no longer read postings about Elk/Moose.

Which reminds me. ;-)  While quibbling earlier about Ygg's isles, I'd
managed to totally forgot where they were, and confuse them with the
(tinier and isolateder) islands to the west of the glacier.  Duh.  Given
that they are in fact pretty close to the Fronelan mainland, it'd be
perfectly plausible to have the odd Alces alces on them, if you believe
they exist in Fronela.  For the same reason, I doubt they're dwarf/giant
varieties, either...  I still don't think they're the Original Source of
moose/elk, though, which is what I (mis?)took Joerg's original comment to
imply.

Alex (fumbling World Lore).

---------------------

From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Pelorian/Pelandan Potshots.
Message-ID: <9409100639.AA20767@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 10 Sep 94 06:39:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6150


Joerg construes my disagreement as puzzlement:
> > Pelandan culture is pretty much extinct, so the Dara Happan version is
> > the Official Line.  (I think Greg (and Nick) only mentioned the Pelandan
> > "dating" when we squeezed it out of him afterwards.)

> Dara Happan culture has been thoroughly Lunarized, so what the Emperor 
> says is true (not only just).

Begging the question.  The Pelandans had already gone by the time the Lunars
got there, so they hardly get to pick and choose between the versions on an
equal basis.

> >> Still we have no incling what makes a stellar body a moon. 

> > It's "thing I point to when I say `moon'".  Given that Glorantha has only
> > had two (or so) a case by case "definition" isn't very hard.

> Or so. The Seshnegi referred to the southpath planets as moons in older 
> sources. Does this give the moon rune to Tolat?

If you meant "possesses the moon rune", then read definition as "thing a
God Learner points to when he says `moon'".

> >> The Pelorian Earth Rune might well be round. After all, the Pelorian bowl 
> >> is roughly round as well.

> > Given Lodril's association with squareness, I doubt this.

> Well, the Pelorian rune for deep fire is square. See GRoY pp. 
> 13 (Akuturos), 25 (Elvtios), and 63 (Lodril's staff).

And what does "deep" mean, pray, if not "connected to the earth"?

> > And the historical
> > (as opposed to Merely Mythic) worship of Yelm dates _after_ the nomad
> > occupation of Peloria.

> Who do you think was worshipped by the nomads? Kargzant? Who is now?

Who is now Kargzant, I'd guess.  If you're asserting that they worship
Yelm qua Yelm, then you know more (or less?) than I.

But that wasn't my point (as if Joerg particularly cared what my point was),
which is that _prior_ to the nomad invasion, sun worship may have been less
prominent.  Whom they worshipped while the Pentans were about is neither
here nor there.

> >> It coexists with "davu", probably another gentile deity.

> > Explain this one to me more slowly.

> davu, or in later names devu, is a name component.

But what has this to do with gentiles, and deities?

Alex.

---------------------

From: ANDOVER@delphi.com
Subject: Praxian carnivores;
Message-ID: <01HGYCOMQRV69C3J6U@delphi.com>
Date: 10 Sep 94 12:43:16 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6151

allyr
Been out of town for a while.  To pick up two old lines:
>Praxian carnivores, no one seems to have mentioned dinosaurs: I remember
there were packs of deionychus running around in Borderlands, frex
>Kallyr, aside from being the one who light the flame in Boldhome on day
88, I wonder if she was the one in the 1629 marriage, as implied by 
Minaryth Purple.  Suppose it is possible that she married Argrath!  Note
also that Minaryth's account has her being killed by Harrek.  This may
explain why Jar-eel "reappears" after Harrek kills her!  The description
of Jar-eels' death in the main saga may actually be a description of
Kallyr's death!  Also suggests again the ruthlessness of Argrath, who
plays footsie with so bad a guy as Harrek!

---------------------

From: Argrath@aol.com
Subject: Spirits; fertility
Message-ID: <9409101824.tn698452@aol.com>
Date: 10 Sep 94 22:24:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6152

I said:
>>Anything with a spirit in it is obviously a binding object if
>>there is no user restriction which excludes the person holding
>>it. However, you can only communicate with the spirit if a) you
>>have a language in common and b) the spirit wants to talk or
>>you force it to talk.  Until you do so, you can't tell the
>>power of the enchantment.  Even then, a stupid or
>>obstructionist spirit might not inform you correctly.   

Colin Watson replied:
>The way I understood it, a bound spirit doesn't get any option
>on the cooperation front. It is obliged, nay, compelled, to do 
>as it's instructed (so long as the user is not excluded by
>enchantment conditions). This is one of the basic functions of
>the binding enchantment. You don't have to cast Dominate Magic
>Spirit every time you want your bound Magic Spirit to cast a
>spell. Do you? 

I quote: "People in physical contact with an enchanted item can
mentally communicate with a creature bound inside (if there are
no conditions to the contrary) and can automatically command the
creature to use its abilities."  (MB, page 57.)  Note that the
word "automatically" modifies "command" and not "communicate." 
Mental communication does not mean, necessarily, language-less
communication, and certainly does not mean mind-reading (not that
Colin suggested this, I just want to be comprehensive).  

>Regarding languages, do we really need a Summoned Spirit Random
>Language Determination Table? I don't think so.  I assume that
>basic communication with spirits is done at a very low level,
>almost subconscious. Actual language doesn't come into it, it's
>all done with mental pictures, feelings and such. Now, you won't
>be able to a have a very lucid discussion about the nature of
the universe, but I think the protocol gives enough flexibility
to glean a few basic facts about a creature: truename, abilities
>etc.  

Well, your world is your world, but if I were a player, I'd have
a heck of hard time suspending my disbelief to the point where a
character could order a bound spirit to reveal its true name and
abilities without the use of language.  If we were still back in
the days when there was Spirit Speech, I'd say you needed that to
talk to spirits.  I am thankful there has been no mention of that
language in a long time.

As for random generation tables: don't you know who and what
every spirit in your world is?  

>Control-type spells allow you to get such information (see
>Summoning rules) and my assumption is that a bound spirit is,
>while bound, effectively Controlled in the same way. 

This is directly contrary to the rules, which note a rather large
difference between bound+controlled spirits and merely bound
spirits (you can make the former come back).  A commanded spirit
answers one question per casting of the spell (MB, page 54).

Alex Ferguson points out, re: the question "are Yelmalio and
Elmal the same god?":
>This is a false dichotomy, of course, one we might entitle God
>Learners' Choice.  Asked: "Are these two gods the same", one
>should respond "What do you mean by "the same"?"; "Who's asking
>the question?"; "How would one tell?" and the ever-popular,
>"What's in it for me/you/him?". 

Let's not forget the also-popular "Why do you want to know?"

Alex tries to change the subject:
>Argrath@aol.com needles: 
>>Alex moans: 
>>>Bryan J. Maloney asserts:  
>>>>First, Bless Earth is necessary to merely get a "normal"
>>>>crop in Genertela.  
>>>Does anyone have a source for the "Truth" of this?   
>>At the Gloranthan lore auction, Greg and Sandy said something 
>>pretty close to this. 
>You mean, just after Greg suggests that the whole Genert/Pamalt
>comparison is a God Learner stitch-up?  I think we have a
>Classic Greg/Sandy Split here. 

Well, I disagree, but I'm really only quoting the above because
I've caught the never-let-anyone-else-get-the-last-word bug. 
I'll be repeating this ad nauseam until Alex eats too much haggis
and dies.

>>>This would seem more likely if either: Pameltela actually
>>>_was_ more fertile than Genertela; ... 
>>It is.  See same citation, above. 
>I don't think this makes much sense.  If Pamaltela had twice the
>population of Genertela, rather than half, this might be
>marginally more convincing. 

I think the error in your logic above is the unspoken assumption
that land fertility correlates directly with population.  Once
you look at it that way, you can draw your own counter-example.

--Martin



---------------------

From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: PJW's Father Told Me...
Message-ID: <01HGZFN44ACU9JD4KQ@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: 11 Sep 94 21:15:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6153

G'day all,
______________________
What My Father Told Me

Peter J. Whitelaw writes:

>I recently wrote a 'What My Father Told Me - A Personal View of Life in Sun
>County' for a new PC in my Prax campaign.

The sort of hardworking GM we'd all like to have!

>As MOB quite rightly pointed out to me in a private post, Mike Dawson's has
>already been published on the back cover of the GM's ref in SotB but, if 
>anyone would like to see a different interpretation then I'll be happy to 
>post it. 

I did point this out to Peter, as he sent it to me as I'm thinking about 
putting together a book of more scenarios in and around Sun County.  As a
WMFTM has already been published for Sun Domers (in SotB) I said that we
probably wouldn't need a second version. This is not to say I didn't like
it though, 'cos I did!  And I suggested he post it to the Daily for wider
appreciation.

>The file is about 11895 bytes in ASCII format so would be about 1/2 a 'part' 
>of the Daily.  I appreciate that some of you might not want that much of 
>the Daily to be taken up by one post.

>If three people tell me they want it, by private post or on the Daily then 
>I'll post it. 

Make me one of the three.
 
>Although if you tell me 1/2 way through some long post on the finer points of
>GRoY then I probably won't see it ;-)

Me neither...

>For the record, I didn't write the WMFTM because I don't like Mike 
>Dawson's - it's just I didn't remember that I owned a book that had one in.  
>So, it is not derivative in any way from that which is already in print.

What a wonderful thing it is to own *too many* RQ books so that you can
forget you've got information on something and have to make it up yourself!

(Now that I've let the (shadow)cat out of the bag, what do people think of
another book of adventures in and around Sun County?  Book might also
feature a brief run-down of the Elmal/Yelmalio business too.  I have a
number of scenarios worth running with, including one set in the Count's
recently-opened halite mines at Pent Ridge out in Vulture's Country.  But, hey,
I gotta finish SotRM first!)

Cheers

MOB

---------------------

From: Argrath@aol.com
Subject: You say goodbye, and I say hello
Message-ID: <9409102123.tn706097@aol.com>
Date: 11 Sep 94 01:23:31 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6154

And now for something MOB can use in his game: Gloranthan
greetings.  I will attempt to put some flesh on the bones (and
stimulate some response from people who have their own examples) by showing
how I think various Gloranthans say hello and goodbye.  I am NOT going to try
to think of cute fantasy variations on the words "hello" or "goodbye," as I
think it fairly pointless.

The variables are much the same for all the groups I discuss
below:
1) how closely the persons are related: stranger->known non-kin->
distant kin or friend->close kin, 
2) what rank the person has: slave->freeman->noble or priest->
royalty, 
3) for strangers, how like-us the person is: different species->
outlander->neighboring culture->same culture (same tribe for
Praxians)->possible kin, and
4) how friendly they are

as well as the obvious variables (like what the greeter wants to
get from the greetee.


Sartarites and Heortlanders
---------------------------
A stranger who appears to be a slave gets a "Hey, you!"  The same
for an unknown outlander, Praxian, or sailor.  (Note that this is
a common form of address in the U.S., where we not only abhor
class distinction but also have no manners.)  If you don't mind a
few archaic words in your game, "sirrah" is a derogatory term for
a person of low social class.   From "Hey, you!" the conversation
progresses through "Take off your hat in front of your superiors"
and other such pleasantries.

A freeman addressing a fellow freeman who is known but distant
kin or family says something like "Welcome, brother, how is it
with you?" or, if the kin had been traveling, "...how was your
journey?  Have you eaten?"  While saying this, they clasp wrists. 
If they haven't seen each other in a while, they ask after each
others' close families, and expect to learn quite detailed
information about their doings.

When close kin meet after not seeing each other for a while (that
is, a day or more), they hug each other.  If they haven't seen
each other for quite a long time (over a week), they exchange
kisses on the cheeks.  

A king greets an important stranger with a grave "Welcome to our
land, honored sir.  Come, rest and eat with us."  Other
formalities, more free in form, follow.

On departure, people of like rank say "A safe journey, a peaceful
journey."  If they don't expect to see each other for a while,
there will be tears and hugs.

Well, I'm not going to ring the changes.  Anyone else have some
ideas, especially on challenges and other unfriendly greetings?


Uz
--
In addition to the standard variables, there is a strong gender
factor.  Uz are raised from birth to treat females as superior to
males, and any young male who so much as speaks rudely to a
female uzko gets beaten.  All uz are considered much-like-us, and
it is rare for an uz other than a merchant to greet a human. 
When they do, they try to imitate the customs of the human.

An uz greeting a more powerful uz who is not close kin gives the
traditional "Here, eat this instead of me, and while you're
eating, let's talk" as set out in Trollpak.  If he doesn't have
any food, he says "Please don't kill me."

An uzko greeting a less powerful uzko or any enlo says "What do
you want?" or "What are you doing here?"  Note that males never
speak this way to female uzko, even if they outrank them (which
is rarely the case except for Karrg's Sons and the like).  A male
greeting a lower ranking female uzko something like "Excuse me,
auntie, but I need to talk to you" or "Welcome, auntie, it's good
to darksense you.  Come and eat."  Substitute sister or even
niece if the male is much older than the female.

An enlo trying to get an uzko's attention gives a high pitched
whine like a beaten dog and strokes the uzko's arm or leg while
saying "I'm sorry, mistress [or master], please excuse your
worthless slave ..."  It's all rather disgusting to watch, or
even think about.  The word for fawning in Darktongue translates
literally as "to act like an enlo."  No wonder the uzko's
response is often a backhanded blow to the face of the enlo.

An uzko or uzdo slave addressing its master is less enlo-ish than
an enlo, but still sickeningly subservient.

A good way for an uzko to greet an uzuz is to prostrate himself
at the uzuz's feet, and beg "Oh, please, mistress, tell me what
you want me to do."  (This comes from a PC in Mike Dawson's game,
and strikes me as completely appropriate.)

An unfriendly greeting is to say "Down on your knees, slave." 
Note that this is the same as a friendly greeting to a slave.  An
unfriendly greeting to a slave is a kick.


Praxians
--------
A friendly greeting shows that one is unarmed.  A rider holds up
the right hand, palm towards the other person, while keeping the
reins in the left hand.  (Agimori never put down their weapons;
they know that other Agimori will never attack them, so they have
no fear of them, and they know that non-Agimori cannot be
trusted.)  

If two men meet who are strangers of the same tribe, they say
something like "Waha be with you."  If, on the other hand, they
are of different tribes, they say "Peace to you and your kin." 
If of the same clan but not close kin, they greet each other by
name, and say "Waha walks with you."  Close kin just say each
others' names and clasp each other's upper arms.

The goodbye of the Praxians is "Waha be with you."  It is NOT
"Happy trails to you, until we meet again.  Happy trails to you,
keep smiling until then."


Hope you enjoy this, and will help me flesh it out.
--Martin