Bell Digest v940911p2

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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sun, 11 Sep 1994, part 2
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From: CHEN190@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 10 Sep 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <01HGZKSDMQ2GFGXMDS@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: 12 Sep 94 02:23:16 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6155

Alex wrote

>> If we accept that Elmal is a different god from
>> Antirius or Yelmalio, then we have severe problems (IMO) in trying to sort
>> out what happened to the Elmali tribes in the time of King Tarkalor.

>This is a false dichotomy, of course, one we might entitle God Learners'
>Choice.  Asked: "Are these two gods the same", one should respond "What do
>you mean by "the same"?"; "Who's asking the question?"; "How would one tell?"
>and the ever-popular, "What's in it for me/you/him?".

A clarification here.  Of course the worshippers would regard them as being
different gods.  That is their subjective view.  What I am talking about is the
objective view which would be useful if say a lost Caladralander Lodril priests
manages to make his way across the wastes to see the temple of Solf.  Would he
be able to regain his spells there?  Yes.  But if a sage asked the Solfties if
their god was Lodril, they would say no.

>But would a Sartarite Narri [Elmali] clansman and a Praxian Sun Domer
>agree that they worshipped the same god?  I find it very unlikely.  If we
>decided they worshipped the "same" god, would this mean the former couldn't
>DI against the latter, or that the second could Divine information about
>the first?  Not very satisfactory, in my view.

DInformation?  Presumably you mean divine intervention.  In any case I do not
think you could DI against other people so your conundrum does not arise.  DI
(IMO at least) is only used for enhancing your own situation not diminshing
various attributes of others.

>>[The dissension in the Elmali clans]

>Their logic isn't too unfathomable.  They know that they worship the sun
>(the thing I point to when I say "Sun"), and they know that Yelm worshippers
>(who _obviously_ worship the sun, and there's only one sun, right?) can
>bring Sunspears, so it must be possible.

If there is only one sun, then please explain why the Elmali do not get
Sunspear?  And that Monrogh only came back with a pale shadow of Yelm rather
than the true Yelm cult?  I said they were trying to imitate Antirus who they
recognized (or said was) as the true form of Elmal and the most correct way to
worship.

>Of course, the precise route they used to bring this about is to "discover"
>that Yelmalio is Yelm's son, and hence his associate, therefore getting
>said Sunspear.

Hmm, but they worshipped Elmal to start off with, not Yelmalio.  What the
conservative elmali were complaining about IMO was the Dara Happan nature of
the 'Antirius' cult.

> IMO, the Elmali dispute was settled by bringing in an Elvish version of
> the cult that allowed some cult members to cast sun spear (ie High
> Priest and Light Son) rather than a totally hardline solar cult that
> allows sun spear to be know by everybody (from Yelm).

>The "dispute" was settled by the two groups being physically separated so's
>they stop beating each other up (old Sartar), and by the Yelmalions beating
>up their local Elmali (Farpoint).  

This is david hall's intepretation.  I haven't seen any sign of the Elmali in
the Righteous Wind revolt apart from this.  

>>As to what the original source of the
>>Yelmalio cult itself was, it hardly solves anything to suppose it has an
>>elvish origin, although I don't doubt the elves have their own sun god,
>>with whom Yelmalio (and/or Elmal) has been identified/confused with, at
>>various places and times.

If you read back further, I did suggest an origin for Yelmalio.  As for saying
it hardly solves anything to suppose it has an elvish origin, I do not
understand.  What is there that needs to be urgently 'solve'd? 

>> As for rituals, they're designed to
>> explain certain points about the god to the masses.

>Couldn't disagree more.  The rituals, for most purposes, _are_ the religion,
>not a PR bolt-on.

Hmm, we'll have a lot harder time trying to get regional variation that way.  I
prefer to see the ritual as a magical means of communicating with the God
and/or bringing down aspects of her/him.  I must confess my bias and state I
see the ceremony ritual not as a uniform skill all over Glorantha but as a
combination of traditions.  Doraddi would do dances whereas the Dara Happans
might sacrifice bulls and the Kralori meditate.

>> I think Naveria is actually the wife of Yelm.  Given that Dendara is
>> the bright face of the Earth brightened by Yelm (and Gorgorma is the
>> dark face - look at the moon for what I describing)

>Funny you should mention the moon in this context: if the pre-Time moon
>displayed phases, it occurs to me that it may be identified with _both_
>Dendara and Gorgorma, by this logic.  

And call the Moon Oria and you have a good indication of what I suspect...

--Peter Metcalfe

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