Bell Digest v940913p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 13 Sep 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk

X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.

X-RQ-ID: index

6164:  = 
 - re: OTE/Glorantha
6165:  = 
 - Fanzine-distributors, please contact me!
6166:  = 
 - Stop that GRoY-bashing-bashing
6167:  = 
 - A big black stick stack?
6168:  = 
 - tricksters, lions, and truestones
6169:  = 
 - Re: spirit languages?
6170:  = 
 - Pelandan culture dead ? Not in my book
6171:  = 
 - Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sun, 11 Sep 1994, part 1
6172:  = 
 - Gloranthan Mythology
6173:  = 
 - This and That and Truestone
6174:  = 
 - Sartar stuff
6175:  = 
 - Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 10 Sep 1994
6176:  = 
 - Re: Greetings and Sayings
6177:  = 
 - Introducing new folks
6178:  = 
 - Vinga's spells
6179:  = 
 - Shucks.
6180:  = 
 - Q&A
6181:  = 
 - Sun Dome  & Basmoli Father's Tales
6182:  = 
 - What My father Told Me - Sun County
6183:  = 
 - 2nd post sans GRAY...
6184:  = 
 - Trade; Babeester Gor; Humakt


Subject: re: OTE/Glorantha
Message-ID: <4457090912091994_A12603_FRIR_118962362A00*@MHS>
Date: 12 Sep 94 11:10:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6164

Loren Miller (Saturday's Daily?) suggested using Over The Edge's very
simple mechanics for a Glorantha game
Very briefly, OTE's non-rules are based on a lot of GM adjudication, and the
old '2 dice and pray' approach, except that you have more than two dice in
your chosen Talents (The beauty of the system is that the Talents are
very widely defined; for instance, one talent might be Lunar Legionnairy,
covering weapons skills, small unit tactics, fieldcraft, minor magic and
the appropriate What My Sergeant Major Told Me; other ideas which occured to
me were Smith, or Troll Lore - for those Griselda wannabes)
  I considered OTE for my (Probably aborted) Intifada in Pavis game, but
although it's very simple and chic, I wasn't sure it gave the feeel I wanted
from Glorantha. Partly that's 'cause to me Gloranthan combats are a long
rally of Attack-Parry-Attack-Parry, rather than OTE's much more fluid,
descriptive approach; but also because the strength of OTE is in simply
converting packages into mechanics IF YOU KNOW WHAT THE SKILL PACKAGE SHOULD
CONTAIN ANYWAY. If you know what your CIA Agent should be able to do, it's
easier to write 'CIA Agent 4 dice' than to write all his/her skills and their
appropriate %ages. OTOH, RQ 2's character sheet had occasional odd things
(like that Throw Rock skill all beginners were so good at) which reminded
you that these people were different, and would consider diffreent ways
doing things (eg Throwing rocks at jackals seems a very Ancient Greek type
thing to do)
  So, that's my 2 clacks-worth - nice idea but not quite what I'm looking for

Duncan Hedderley


From: (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Fanzine-distributors, please contact me!
Date: 12 Sep 94 08:22:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6165

Joerg here.

I need to contact Colin Phillips (sp?) and Tom Zunder, both because of 
deals with Ingo Tschinke regarding distribution of Codex and 
RQ-Adventures, respectively. Please contact me via e-mail, or Ingo via 
surface mail!

I'd also like to get in touch with the editor/distributor of La Toile 
d'Arachne Solara (I forgot which of the many namyes to use). I know 
he has no e-mail access, mais c'est possible que nous avons des 
participants fran,caises qui saient comment `a contacter luis.

--  Joerg Baumgartner


From: (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Stop that GRoY-bashing-bashing
Date: 12 Sep 94 08:23:16 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6166

Nils Weinander in X-RQ-ID: 6112

> I'll really try to stop writing about moose from now on. But if I
> do find an angle to get some of them into the Dara Happan mythos,
> then I could kill two birds with one stone and combine two really
> annoying threads (according to an increasing number of readers)
> into one completely meaning-less megathread! :-)

I found one not that meaningless: 

In Manimat's time (not yet Time) the Dara Happan refugees from ice and 
destruction of the Dome adopt trews as the reindeer people wore. Does 
this mean the Uncolings were around in southern Peloria, and probably 
Pent and northern Wastelands as well?

S.W. Jones n X-RQ-ID: 6113
> 	I'd like to add my voice to chorus of taking the GRAoY discussion
> off line,

Bob Luckin in X-RQ-ID: 6120

> Hi from Bob Luckin !

> I'd like to add my voice the the chorus of agreement with David Hall's
> comments on the Endless ReInterpretation of GRoY.  I'm starting to find
> these protracted arguments a bit tedious, I'm afraid.  I'm also beginning
> to hate those mooses to pieces.  :-)

Ok, that's another three almost in a row.

Heck, there have been more lines of complaints than of participation in 
the GRoY discussion, it seems to me.

Seriously, there is a group >= 4 who wants to discuss this, and a 
group >= 8 or so who yawn and don't want to see this. I don't want to 
take a poll on this, but it seems we need a public forum for side issues 
only a part of us is intereted in. I cannot run a mailing list from my 
organisation, else I'd have started one by now.

However, there has been talk about a RQ/Glorantha/other related or 
semi-related stuff newsgroup. What happened about this?

I think the participants of RQ-Daily are sufficient to create even a 
rec.* group if we all participate. A while ago there was the question 
what should there be to discuss on that newsgroup. Now I think we have 
at least a few topics...

Well, and I'd like to see the daily and possibly also the digested 
RQ4-discussion (if such a thing exists) cross-posted to this (to 
be initiated) newsgroup.

Now, comments on this use (and others, like players/material wanted etc 
requests, plus a RQ-FAQ...) are appreciated. On the Daily as well as in 

--  Joerg Baumgartner


From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 724-9843)
Subject: tricksters, lions, and truestones
Date: 12 Sep 94 04:22:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6168

   Hi all
   - Pam Carlson writes about several topics in x-rq-id 6126.
   In regards to tricksters, I, for one, do not think it incompatible to 
   think of 'trickster' and 'respect' in the same sentence.  That was part 
   of my post a couple months ago regarding Imtherian tricksters 
   specifically, but also a more global view.  Yes, there are tricksters 
   who are complete outlaws and deserve to be lynched. But there are far 
   more who will be annoying, but still considered a necessary and even 
   important part of the community.  And the trickster gods are often good 
   companions, too.  (In Norse myth, Loki is always hanging around with 
   Odin or Thor--they must have some reason why they want him around.)  It 
   is my belief that Orlanth likes Eurmal far more than he is willing to 
   There is some connection between lions and solar culture IMO.  GRAY 
   cites a deity (Derdenath?) as a lion-maned deity who is the father of 
   Votank and implied to be in the Arcos valley region (if I remember 
   correctly).  I chose Basmal for that reason, too (he of the lightning 
   claws and haloed mane).  I think there are lions in the Rockwoods and 
   maybe the Jord mountains and occasionally they may be found in the Arcos 
   valley still.  (They were hunted out of existence in Imther, though.)  
   It may be possible that the solar culture views lions as children of the 
   griffin (or gryphon if you prefer).  Might be a good myth there on the 
   devolution to lions (or how King Gryphon gets to hell).
   On the derivation of Khelmal--in origin he was derived from Yelmalio 
   (CoP version) partly because I wanted to explain what happened after his 
   wounding at the Hill of Gold and partly because I didn't like the fact 
   that he had lost his Cloud Clear spell.  And then came the assorted 
   myths of the Hill of Gold, etc.  The nearness of the ancient elf woods 
   called West Wood probably means that Khelmal in origin was closest to 
   Yelmalio too.  Dara Happan invasion gave him an infusion of Antirius and 
   /or Shargash which did not disappear until the Dragonkill War.  I don't 
   think there was much Elmal influence.
   And along that line, I am nearing completion of the Khelmal cult 
   - There have been several questions about the value of truestone.
   I think one aspect of truestone has been left out that makes it more 
   valuable than an equivalent spell matrix--a truestone is pure LAW.  
   Truestone crushed the devil (at least in Prax) and prevents him from 
   rising.  Though never stated, I would play that truestone has an 
   automatic capability similar to either Storm Bull's or Kyger Litor's 
   ability against Chaos.  Chaos simply can't use its normal effects 
   against someone holding a piece of truestone.  This capability would 
   raise its value tremendously and would add another reason why Storm 
   Bulls don't want pieces of it taken from the Block.


From: (Colin Watson)
Subject: Re: spirit languages?
Message-ID: <>
Date: 12 Sep 94 16:08:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6169

> Mental communication does not mean, necessarily, language-less
> communication, and certainly does not mean mind-reading (not that
> Colin suggested this, I just want to be comprehensive).  

Sure, mental communication needn't be language-less; but I'm saying, in the
case of spirits, it usually is. Many types of spirits don't even have INT
so I hardly think they would be capable of using human-like languages. That's
why Control-type spells require the caster to form *mental images* of
the actions they wish the controlled creature to perform. They don't use
language 'cos many creatures wouldn't understand it.

I don't think its unreasonable to assume that the communication-link afforded
by a binding enchantment uses the same approach. 

>  I'd have a heck of hard time suspending my disbelief to the point where a
> character could order a bound spirit to reveal its true name and
> abilities without the use of language.

IT'S MAGIC for cryin'-out-loud. The character does NOT explicitly say "Hey
Mr. salamander, tell me your stats"; the salamander does NOT explicitly
reply "I'm 3 cubic meters big; my POW is 12; my STR is 17 etc...". The
exchange is implicit. The character gets an intuitive feel of what the
salamander is like. (Which may be expressed by the GM to the player in terms
of game statistics).

Anyway, the control-spell descriptions say that mental images are used to
"command" the target; and the summoning rules say that control spells can be
used to interrogate spirits: Hence I deduce that spirits can effectively
be interrogated using mental images...

> As for random generation tables: don't you know who and what every spirit
> in your world is?  

'course I do. :-)

The point I was making is: if you say bound spirits speak different
languages then you are also implying that summoned spirits will speak
different languages. Summoned spirits are randomly determined (unless a
truename is used) so any poor sap who has the guts to cast a Summon(X) spell
would, more often than not, end up with a creature he couldn't "talk" to.

Now, there are ways around this (maybe spirits can speak *all* languages;
or maybe only spirits which understand your language will respond to the
summons) but I think its simpler just to assume that language isn't a
factor in the summons/binding process. The communication required is at
a sub-linguistic level.

Of course, intelligent spirits might be able to use language; and if you can
speak the same language you can have high-falutin' discussions with them.
But I don't think language is required to get a bound spirit to perform
the basic functions which binding-enchantments/control-spells allow.

> >Control-type spells allow you to get such information (see
> >Summoning rules) and my assumption is that a bound spirit is,
> >while bound, effectively Controlled in the same way. 
>  ^^^^^ ^^^^^   [ my emphasis - CW]
> This is directly contrary to the rules, which note a rather large
> difference between bound+controlled spirits and merely bound
> spirits (you can make the former come back).

That's why I said "while bound". You can make a bound spirit do as much as
you like without needing a control spell as long as you don't release it
from the binding. The way I read it, a control spell is only required if
you want to release a spirit, get it to perform an act, and then command it
back into the binding. I don't think you need to release a bound spirit in
order to interrogate it; therefore I don't think you need a control spell.

>A commanded spirit
> answers one question per casting of the spell (MB, page 54).

Yes, this is clearly the case for summoned creatures which have not been
bound. It is not clear (to me) whether a control spell is required to
question a bound spirit. I admit that my assumption that Binding gives
as much control as a control-spell (while the creature remains bound) is



From: (Loren Miller)
Subject: Pelandan culture dead ? Not in my book
Message-ID: <9409121436.AA06741@Sun.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 94 06:37:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6170 (Alex Ferguson) replies to Joerg replying to him:
> > > Pelandan culture is pretty much extinct, so the Dara Happan version is
> > > the Official Line.  (I think Greg (and Nick) only mentioned the Pelandan
> > > "dating" when we squeezed it out of him afterwards.)
> > Dara Happan culture has been thoroughly Lunarized, so what the Emperor 
> > says is true (not only just).
> Begging the question.  The Pelandans had already gone by the time the Lunars
> got there, so they hardly get to pick and choose between the versions on an
> equal basis.

Ahem. The Pelandans are not gone. They are still around, serving as a
peasant underclass in Carmania proper. Most of their old secret powers
may be gone, and if they ever held the secrets of writing their own
characters they have lost them by now, but there are plenty of
ethnically pure Pelandans running around in Bindle and Worion and
Jhor, even in Spol. Too many, if you ask the Carmanian overlords (who
by now are quite a bit more Pelandan in blood and culture than they
are Loskalmi, but don't tell them I said so or they'd be on me faster
than you could shout "Look out behind ecch!"). There's even still a
grain goddess or whatever called Pela and I bet that her cult holds
some secrets from the old days if you care to ferret them out. I
already looked, so don't expect to find any rich treasures in her old

Adrad Vilalhri
Tax Adjustor at Large in the Western Reaches

Loren Miller       
I can tell by your shoes that you are a lover of liberty


From: (Roderick Robertson)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sun, 11 Sep 1994, part 1
Date: 12 Sep 94 16:30:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6171

Martin writes about Gloranthan Greetings:

(Much good stuff deleted)

   Just to drum up "contestants" for RQCON II, there will be a 
"Gloranthan Introductions" event, probably in conjunction with the 
Gloranthan Costumery. The idea is to introduce someone in the manner 
of the Gloranthan Culture of your choice. So a Lunar Bureaucrat's 
greeting might be something along the lines of: "Minister of 
Enlightenment Jerdacious, may I present the third under-secretary to 
the Minister of Religious Purity, Loquacious Silbericus." 

  Such introductions should be less than a minute in length. At this 
point, I plan to pair up an introducer and a costumer, unless one 
person wants to do his own intro. Some comments about the origin of 
the costume (in character, of course) are appropriate.

>The goodbye of the Praxians is "Waha be with you."  It is NOT
>"Happy trails to you, until we meet again.  Happy trails to you,
>keep smiling until then."

   Of course not, that is the Pentan goodbye!

Hope you enjoy this, and will help me flesh it out.


From: (David Scott)
Subject: Gloranthan Mythology
Date: 12 Sep 94 17:17:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6172

A few days late I know - Peter Metcalfe replies to David Hall:

>>How can any of this waffle help me GM or play the damn game?
>It's just one aspect of the Gloranthan hobby.  If Greg didn't want the meanings
>of the GRAY and other misleading texts to be debated over by Pedants then he
>would have made the facts clear...

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. Perhaps GRAY was just meant to be some game background or
my personal theory is that Greg is out there reading all of this nonsense
and laughing - what a great joke. I don't think that any of GRAY would
really matter in a game - anybody out there running a game set in Dara
Happa at the time of GRAY? Is the Glorantha Hobby really now extending into
the realms of meaningless waffle, does the GRAY debate contribute anything
to Roleplaying, or do refs run games based around groups of Godlearners
exploring the cosmos?

>>Whether this is true or not doesn't really
>>matter: what matters is what they believe.
>So if I believe that Yelmalio didn't really loses his fire powers at the hills
>of Gold, I can use Fireblade?  To me this is simplistic.

If any of my players said the above, they'd definately be labled as
dangerous heretic. I may be wrong but arn't most religons about belief. As
part of their initiation, I'm sure most worshoppers would directly
experience the suffering that Yelmalio felt on the Hill of Gold. Just
because you can say I don't believe it, most wouldn't as they KNOW and FELT
what really happened. Using fireblade doesn't even come into it - it would
be considered sacrilige to even think about using it (unless you enjoy

For the last few months, I have been skipping through most of the digest,
for some reason the content has been becoming more waffly (?). Perhaps it's
time to give the digest some direction, like a monthly or biweekly theme to
explore some aspects of RQ/Glorantha and then onto something new. Further
discussions could be taken offline and then compiled for a monthy digest.
I'm not suggesting a decrease in volume, only an increase in quality.

Let the flaming begin!!



From: (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: This and That and Truestone
Message-ID: <>
Date: 12 Sep 94 20:36:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6173

Me and Alex:

>> But as I also mentioned in an earlier posting, Sandy has
>> stated for the record (or at least for the daily) that the assigning of
>> Infinity versus doubled runes is _not_ done in any orderly fashion.
>I missed both of you saying this.  I thought Sandy cleaved to the Original
>Source/Non-Original Source distinction?

Well, he did and he didn't. I think I can dig up his original text for you
from my hard disk.


>I have a question about Blank Truestone.
>A priest who cast all his rune spells into the trunestone
>(A) cannot regain them and he must resacrifice to the spell.
>   or
>(B) can regain them when he pray in his temple as usual.
>which is true?

(B). Putting spells into a truestone counts as a normal casting. Come to
think of it, you should probably be able to recharge it that way too, as an
alternative to the tedious "leave it on the altar for (used spell points)
days" procedure.

Just me, wondering aloud:

A while ago, Henk wondered if anyone had any submissions for the Digest.
Well, I sent one in a while ago, but neither that nor any of my other
attempts to reach him (via various e-mail addresses) have elicited any sort
of response. Hopefully he'll read this, anyway.

(      Jonas Schiott                                   )
(      Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria      )
(      Goteborgs Universitet                           )


Subject: Sartar stuff
Date: 12 Sep 94 07:26:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6174

Ok, I wrote a somewhat typical broo hunt awhile back, and had it 
placed(starting) just north of Jonstown.  How often do broo get to within half 
to one and a half days of Jonstown?

What are the local Storm Bull Forces like, if any?

What kind of Chalana Arroy and Humakt temples are in Jonstown, and who are the 
personalities associated with them?

On another note, are there any files out there about the six Stones and 
Alebard's heroquests?

David Cowling