From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 27 Sep 1994, part 2 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) Subject: Pamaltela'n'stuff. Message-ID: <9409252239.AA23465@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 25 Sep 94 22:39:56 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6371 Sandy on "Violence is always an option": > It is my opinion that this proverb, while twisted into many > different useful Orlanthi meanings, is actually a pacifistic saying, > boiling down to "if _this_ doesn't work, we can always resort to > violence". It's also the Feed Line for the dual Ernalda saying, of course. So it's not just (or even mainly, I think) saying things about the attitudes of a particular society, but also about the expected roles of the sexes (or Male and Female Paths) within it. > Alex is being noxious about Pamaltela being actually more fertile and > better than Genertela: [...] > Teeming millions of oppressed peasants is probably a bad > defense of the "Genertela is as fertile as Pamaltela" argument. Only morally. ;-) > As > Previously Stated, the Doraddi live in a large flat land area which, > by all rights, should be a dire desert like unto the Sahara or Gobi. > [...] In addition, the most fertile land, biologically-speaking, is > swampland and rain forest [...] So to sum up your argument, where Pamalt isn't worshipped, the land is about as "fertile" (in terms of biological throughput) as it would be in an Earth-analagous place, which is evidence of Pamaltelan Inherent Fertility, and where he is, that it isn't a total desert, despite having enough rainfall to maintain _permanent_ rivers and lakes (as well as some seasonal ones) (i.e., is about as fertile as it would be in an Earth- analagous place) is evidence of Pamaltelan Inherent Fertility. The prosecution is tempted to rest on the evidence of the main defence witness. > >The basis of the Death of Genert myth is the whole Nasty Chaos > >Incident. However, only the Praxians believe that this seriously > >buggered things up, fertility-wise. > How can you say this? I know for a fact that the Westerners > believe this as well -- they've published statements about it. The Westerners are well-known for believing that everything is going to Hell on a bike, at regular intervals, but I don't recall them blaming their lot on _Genert_ upping and dying on them. The God Learners made the Vadeli Wars the definitive Malkioni Greater Darkness Myth, after all. > The result is that Genertela is shafted, not just in > fertility but in hundreds of tiny little ways that we don't even > notice, since we live there. You have to go a long way to find > something like the Chaos Footprint in Pamaltela, but almost > everywhere in Genertela has some dreadful chaos nest within a week's > travel. So there. Nyah. You're using the greater manifestation of chaos in Genertela, which I just asserted was the whole basis of this mythic dissimilarity between the continents, as a basis for propping up your whole edifice. Lacking any Big Things, other than chaos, I'm cleaving to my "depends what you like" ((C) Arthur Dent, 198X (<-- triply invalid copyright notice)) stance. > >Who thinks Sandy is about to be squished by a Gift Carrier? I'm > >glad to say I think he's cold enough to be pretty safe. > Now see here wiseacre. Please. In accordance with le Systeme Internationale, EU Commission directives, RQ's metric policy, and the fact that I'm easily 2.5 times as prove to persecuting God Learners as the average Dailier, I must insist on being addressed as wise-hectare. > I happen to _know_ the damn secret of the God Learners. This sounds like a plea that since you weren't hanged for the sheep, you should automatically get at most Probation for any subsequent lambs. > But I might tell _you_ Alex, in hopes of getting the Gift > Carriers to nail you. ;) I'll cover my ears. > >I wasn't counting humans, though, I was counting sentients. Of > >course, the non-humans infesting said areas don't worship Pamalt, so > >by rights I _should_ have excluded them, unless Pamalt goes out of > >his way to aid his enemies. > In the first place, there are heaps of sentients in > Pamaltela. Uncounted millions of elves and elf-relatives in the > jungle, and millions more goblins and mermen in the swamps. Eh, Sandy, aren't those _your_ figures, including the elf-jungles, from the back of Tales #11? I know you recommended a pinch of salt, but... > And in the third place, yes, Pamalt _does_ go out of his way > to aid his enemies. The elves by the way aren't Pamalt's enemies, but > the Doraddi's enemies. A slimline distinction, they being his main worshippers. The Moorgarki cult in Troll Gods certainly characterises "the Children of Aldrya" and "the demigod Pamalt" as enemies. > >I just don't want to have to try to struggle to believe a handful of > >grain dropped in the middle of the veldt grows better than in an > >unblessed field in Esrolia. > These are not comparable situations. Of course they're not. But since a vast tracts of Pamaltela are veldt, and very little is arable land, while much of Genertela is arable, it's somewhat contrived to ignore small details like their relative prevalence when talking about The Whole Continent's Fertility, whatever that means anyway. Lest this get totally airy-fairy, let me say what I believe the Actual Situation to be, in semi-rules terms. If you plant grain in "suitable" land in either continent, it grows merrily, Bless Crops or not. Unless, of course, it then fails due to lack of rainfall or sunshine, excessive frost, exhaustion of soil minerals, plagues of boll-weevils, or whatever. Given that there are spells specifically to deal with the first three, I imagine that Bless Crops acts to obviate the remaining possible snags. To wit, it aids soil quality, suppresses pests and blights, and does other miscellaneous earth-type crop-failure-preventing things that I haven't thought of on the spur of the moment. I believe that there probably _are_ fewer people making lots of use of Bless Crops in Pamaltela; for many, I think the expected female horticultural role is Keraun's, since lack of rain, in in particular late or non- appearance of the rainy seasons is the biggest headache for many farmers (and others). Alex. --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 23 Sep 1994 Message-ID: <9409261700.AA18714@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 26 Sep 94 03:01:50 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6380 Alex >Bashed neeps are mashed turnip, of course. A traditional >accompaniment to haggis The intent, presumably, to make the haggis look good by comparison? Kidding here. I now openly confess to liking mashed turnips, at least when mixed with potatoes in the Welsh fashion. Though mashed rutabagas are superior. Enough culinary discussion. Teleos is not just a color-coded EU, if only because the children of the various tribes only rarely happen to be the correct color. Once a year (or so) the tribes get together and exchange kiddies. The Teleos natives won't go to war on one another, of course. Not because they're worried about killing their own children (after all, they _dislike_ off-color kids), but becasue if one tribe gets depleted, then the other tribes just start having more kids of that color until the small tribe is back up to snuff. There's simply no point in killing 'em, but at least they can hate 'em. >I think I got the impression from someplace that there are >more humans than uz in the [Kithori] tribe I got this impression, too, but now I'm not sure where. Maybe it's just because the tribe is about 50-50 troll/human, but most of the trolls are just trollkin scum (who don't count). The Kitori (both human and troll) are heavy Argan Argan worshipers, to the point that both sides are accused of betraying their species. Though Urggh the Ugly (accused of being a half-troll) was from the Kitori tribe, in general everyone agrees that they don't interbreed, unlike the foul tusk riders. >I can't think why there should be two distinct lots of >darkness-worshipping humans in Heortland, most of whose >residents are "otherwise accounted for". Relics from the Only Old One's regime? Michael M. >I do believe that the Styx is the border to Hell -- many HeroQuests >begin and end there! As it should be. The Styx is, of course, on the edge of Hell, but it also goes through the middle (Its source is right at the center). Depending on the route you take to Hell, you can avoid the Styx. George Winter >I learned, through a tour of the Washington National Zoo's AMAZON >exhibit that the fertility of Jungles is a misconception. Jungles are highly fertile and produce enormous amounts of biomass. But jungle _soil_ is terrible for growing crops, except for one or two years right after you burn away the jungle. It's all full of alumina salts and such. The problem is that rainfall is so heavy it washes away all organic nutrients. While the jungle's in place, the nutrients are regained (before they can be washed away) by the ever-present leaf-litter fungus. Anyway, the amount of life produced yearly by a jungle is enormous, and they're quite fertile, so long as you only grow plants that are evolved for that environment. (And you don't mess up the environment by removing the fungus.) Paul Reilly > It seemed to many people that Genert(ela) and Pamalt(ela) were >sort of mirror-twins in many, many, many ways. I.e., that these >"inverse parallels" were part of the fabric of Glorantha. You >probably did more design on Pamaltela than anyone else. Was this >inverse parallelism consciously put in or did it "just happen" as >might be indicated by your apparently-naive noticing of it above? "Apparently-naive", I fear, implies a much greater concentration of subterfuge than I am capable of. In fact, when working on Pamaltela I intentionally tried to make it the opposite of Genertela in many ways, but I did _not_ realize ere last week that the stories of Pamalt and Genert were inverse parallels. If you'd asked me before then, I'd have said that P. and G. were the same, except one was alive, the other dead. You list a lot of interesting parallels. Gotta reply to some, tho. >Genert was a from-below Earth God Pamalt a (From Above?) Fire >God Pamalt is not a fire god, IMO. Lodril is, and Pamalt is his pal, and Vangono (a fire god) is also Pamalt's pal, but Pamalt is not strongly associated with any element but the Earth -- he is King of all the Gods, but he is also Father, Husband, and Son to the Earth Gods, whose family he married into. >Genertela:Cities are bastions of "goodness" and Law; swamps are >often Chaotic -- Pamaltela: Swamps are healthy sources of life; >cities often in grip of Chaos As a Genertelan, you've subtly misinterpreted the Pamaltelan worldview here. (Not re: Swamps, however, in which you are spot on.) Cities are _exactly_ the same in Genertela and Pamaltela. It's just that Genertelans think they are good, and Pamaltelans think they are bad. A Genertelan visiting a Fonritian city would be just as home as in Peloria, Teshnos, or Esrolia. He might see more slaves than in Nochet, but the slaves are given more freedom and power (since the masters don't have to worry about their running away). In my own campaign, the PCs got along much better in Fonrit than they did in Jolar. Not that they didn't have enemies in Fonrit, but they were able to understand what was going on, react appropriately, maneuver through the city's power structure and bureaucracy. The openness and generosity of the Doraddi confused and frightened them. Paul's other points of parallelism were quite good. Metal _is_ rare in Pamaltela, but I think this is more because it's hard to get to the mountains to mine it rather than any innate feature of the continent. Nils >has someone ever heard Greg say _why_ he won't share the secret? Yes. Greg has told me quite explicitly why he won't tell anyone. I thought it was quite a good reason, too. Peter Metcalfe: Despite (or maybe _because_ of) the fact that much of the inverse parallelism re: Pamalt/Genert was not pre-planned but rather just grew as the stories were written, I'm going to take on Peter and see who comes out on top. >>Genert was among the first to fight, Pamalt was among the last. >Hardly any inverse parallelism here. Chaos came from the north >where ragnaglar's lands were. Peter, you missed the point here. When Chaos came to Genert's land, he immediately mustered to battle it. When Chaos came to Pamalt's land, he did not go until the very end, letting other gods strive against Chaos first. >>Genert stood alone. Pamalt used cooperation and leaned on his >>friends. >hmm. The Copper Warriors, The Sky Spears, the White Elves, the >Golden People and our own ancestors plus Yamsur, Tada and All Eyes >Open But One. Hardly what I call fighting on ones own. None of these were gods, just peoples, heroes, etc. The difference here is perhaps not so much that Genert stood all alone, but that Pamalt coordinated his separate beads into a Necklace and thus all stood as one. This is an extremely important part of the Pamalt myth, and there is really nothing like it in Genert's saga. Yamsur, Tada, Orani, Genert all fought and died alone, though not far off other folk were also fighting and dying alone. Pamalt's battles were fought as a group, not many separate individual hopeless struggles. Only the God with No Name and Artmal tried that particular tactic, and only to demonstrate its ineffectual nature. >>Genertela:Cities are bastions of "goodness" and Law; swamps are >>often Chaotic >>Pamaltela: Swamps are healthy sources of life; cities often in grip >>of Chaos >For the Cities, not all are Fonritian. The Umathelans and the Elf >Coasts are urbanized and both seem very 'good' the last time I >looked. The Sodal Marsh is not a Hellhole. Umathela and Elf Coasts are considered bad by the Doraddi, though the Elf Coasts at least have the excuse that they have no choice but to live in cities. And note, they are considered "bad", not because they are a threat of some sort, but in the same way that tobacco smoking is considered "bad" by many -- because it is harmful to the participants, poor sods. Note my statement eaerlier in this column in which I mention that the Pamaltelan and Genertelan cities are NOT different, just viewed differently. In any case, Peter, you can't pick out individual examples and expect thus to disprove a general tendency. While certain Genertelan Marshes may not be chaotic, there is absolutely a general trend in this direction, whereas in general the Pamaltelan marshes (while hostile to humans) are _not_ chaotic. >>Genert: Human Conflict Pamalt: Human Cooperation >hmm. The Arbennan and the Kresh are friends? Fonritian slaver >expeditions into Jolar are benign? The exigers are peaceful? The >Six Legged Empire was well recieved? Kralorela and Teshnos war with >each other? Compared to Genertela, Pamaltela, even non-interior Pamaltela, is a paragon of peacefulness. The Arbennan and Kresh war, while real, would long since have become a bloodbath like unto the Nights of Horror if Genertelans were behind it. The exigers are warlike, the Fonritian slavers are bad. The Six-Legged Empire was killed off. The difference between Pamaltela and Genertela is one of kind, not degree. Anyway, Kralorela and Teshnos share no common border. >>Genert: Elf-Troll wars Pamalt: Elf-Troll coexistence (Muri) >The trolls of the Tarmo raid the Elves of Enkloso and they're just >as Pamaltelean as the Muri. The Muri also hunt yellow elves, they >were forced not to do this only during the lifetime of Errinoru. This particular parallel lacks some force for me, too. But in any case, since I said I was taking Peter on, here goes: The trolls and elves of the Tarmo and Enkloso are tainted heavily by Umathelan reality, and are more like Genertela in customs and habits than they are like Pamaltela. The Muri _do_ hunt yellow elves, but the racial hatred known in Genertela is absent. The Muri hunt _everyone_. Also, there are Muri tribes even today that are subject to or allied with the elves. >>Genert: Continent shrinking (Slontos etc.), Pamalt: Continent >>Growing (Kimos) >They worship other gods in Kimos besides Lodril. Maran Gor is one >and Tidal Wave may be another. And name another place besides Kimos. Porlaso and Slon. But this parallel lacks force, too. What can I say? Perhaps the parallel is Continent Shrinking/Continent Not Shrinking. >>Genert: Metal abundant, Pamalt: Metal scarce (IMO) >In your own opinion. The Doraddi spears require metal. Where do >they get them. As for the lack of armour, Pamaltela is hot. You >don't want to cook yourself fighting there! The Doraddi do have less metal in general than you'll find in Genertela, but I agree this is not necessarily a case of parallelism, but more likely inaccessibility. Not all the Doraddi have metal spears, of course. You'll see lots of bone and stone spear-tips in Tarien, and bamboo spears are pretty common in Kothar and Zamokil. Many of the metal spearheads in Jolar are made by exigers in the mountains or else from Fonritian traders. In essence, the Doraddi generally get their metal spearheads from the same place that Amerinds got their metal tomahawks -- foreign traders. >My belief is that the Emperor of the Green Age was Molandro I cannot concur. Molandro, Keeper of the Earth, was not a ruler, but a guardian entity. I don't think he ever ruled anything. >Lodril beats the other god to a bloody pulp and nothing survives on >Pamaltela save for the Promalti, the men of fire, who are the first >recorded life form from what I have heard. Where did you get _this_ from? In Pamaltela, Lodril is the _bringer_ of life, not the _destroyer_. And they should know. In any case, who says the Promalti are the first recorded life form? >Pamalt of unknown origins comes afterwards. pamaltela is so called >because the GL's thought he was the Southern equivalent of Genert >and they didn't know the name of the one who was before. This I agree with. THough there may not have been a "one who was before", when the GL arrived Pamalt was obviously the Earth-King, and so the GL assumption was obvious. PMichaels: >CoP indicates that there are some worshippers of Yelmalio in >all Praxian tribes except the Morocanth. I think it's safe to say that "in Prax", there are converts to Yelmalio from among the plains tribes, and if you visited Pavis, the percentages of such converts might be reasonably high, as high as CoP shows. Ditto for Orlanth, Humakt, & co. Just like you can find plenty of Christians among the Japanese in big cities. If you went wandering on the plains, though, I don't think you'd see too many of such foreign gods. Only in Pavis. The Yelmalion Impala Riders are, IMO, citified, possibly even Second Generation. I'll adhere to this belief until someone puts forth a more interesting theory. ---------------------