From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 30 Sep 1994, part 2
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From: KEMREN@aol.com
Subject: Placement of Eldarad, Darkness
Message-ID: <9409300202.tn90322@aol.com>
Date: 30 Sep 94 06:02:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6417
Although Eldarad: The Lost City ranks pretty low on the list of supllements
if it is spiced up, it could make an interesting addition to a Glorantha
campaign.
The supplement suggests placing it north west of Peloria as a buffer state
along with the Kingdom of war. This placement would be negate both the
scarcity of items, travel, and most of all the stigma of being a "city
dweller."
Instead, I suggest the placement be west of Teshnos on an unknown till now
branch of the Feethos River. The tombs would corespond to the Plateau of
Statues, and the Tunneled Hills. The races would be Laharabad=Pentan,
Immaril=Praxian, and Armavair=Lunar.
This "fits" in more with the given history, especially the part about being
found only 83-years ago. At the Fronela placement it would have been longer
ago. I know some are going to say how did a Lunar find this place so far
from Peloria. Remember that the Lunar Empire has been sending their
red-haired children as tribute for generations. These children then are
converted and become Etyries merchants who cross Pent to Kralorela, probably
at the Iron Forts. Eldarad would be just south-west of here.
Comments are welcomed.
Darkness-- I would suggest that almost all Darkness temples use a spell
opposite of either glow or light, much like the Krasht temple in Big Rubble.
This would neccesitate Darkness worshippers either learning a night-fighting
skill, a spell similiar to Darksee, or Night Eyes (Land of Ninja, Players
Book p.66).
Thanatari have taken care of this problem through their Darklight spell,
which by the way is useful against other Darkness or Chaos worshippers.
I would also have a well-established Darkness temple various spell spirits,
at strategic spots, to extinguish those nasty torches, dispel (or dismiss)
magic those blaphemous light, lantern, or sunbright spells, and neutralize
those unholy glow spells.
Keith
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From: 100270.337@compuserve.com (Nick Brooke)
Subject: I Fought We Won
Message-ID: <940930073751_100270.337_BHL35-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 30 Sep 94 07:37:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6418
___________
David Cake:
> You may be right about Pamalt's Necklace being related to I Fought We
> Won, though.
Only insofar as "Storm Bull fighting the Devil" is clearly "the Praxian
version" of that myth. Which is to say, who can ever know or say which
Gloranthan myth is "clos est" to the "real" event? The God Learners had a
go, and we all know what happened to them... This is one of the reasons --
apart from the perfect 'fit' -- for why I made IFWW one of the fundamental
Malkioni myths in my "Brief History" (SCU Guide): the GLs interpreted
everyone else's myths to be a corrupted version of theirs! (Think of
Christian conquistadors and missionaries finding 'demonic' parodies of
Xtianity and/or proofs of the Bible wherever they went).
____________
Martin Crim:
> I think that the Praxians have long had Sun myths, perhaps involving Sun
> Hawk, and that the Praxians were open to Solar influence from at least
> the Dawn Age.
I share Martin's opinions. Clearly, Yelmalio-as-written is not a god for
Praxian nomads. I assume the almost-completely-useless "Tribe/Cult Chart"
in CoP is referring to Praxians who'd get on well with Yelmalions. Sun Hawk
is the best bet; though the suggestion that "Yamsur" is the Praxian name
for the sun god is still rather persuasive.
re: Peter M. on Genert/Pamalt
> The level of abstraction makes this thread boring and useless...
> What's the point of disagreeing with Sandy Petersen? For Arachne
> Solara's sake, he's one of the creators of Glorantha, and chief
> architect of Pamaltela.
When's that ever stopped Peter? Just look at his GRAY spasms!
====
Nick
====
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Several things
Message-ID:
Date: 29 Sep 94 14:02:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6407
Joerg here with a small roundhouse reply
Martin Crim in X-RQ-ID: 6400
> Re: Kitori
> at some historical point the human and troll clans "discovered"
> that their founders were the same being. Hey, let's be original
> and call him Kitor. Whether the humans' founder and the trolls'
> founder were really one and the same in a philosophical sense is
> not an empirical question.
I think this "discovery" was similar to the "discover" that the
Grazers were descended from centaurs. IMO Ironhoof cut up one or
two centaurs in 1250, and made them man and horse. By this sacrifice
all the Golden Horse refugees were adopted, and they got a king
with allegiance to Ironhoof - the sacrifice.
> Greg Stafford has opined (at Convulsion, was it?) that the
> Black Arkati worship Arkat in a divine manner. For game system
> purposes, however, I'd treat the spells as sorcery, not divine
> magic. But the Arkati think of them as miracles from their god,
> not as manipulations of natural laws.
So do a vast majority of the Malkioni, IMO.
> Two, what's the point of disagreeing with Sandy Petersen?
Well, I did so now and again, and the point was that in arguing against
me Sandy put forth quite a wealth of information new at least to me.
And sometimes there are holes even in Sandy's vast knowledge which can
use new input.
> Re: Porthomeka
> The internal tariff is an interesting point, and a key
> factor in any understanding of economics (even fantasy
> economics). Up until recent years, tariffs have generally been
> high around the world.
And a generic but good scenario hook - smuggling - is made possible
only by enforcing tariffs or monopolies.
> I'd especially like to know
> how high the tariffs would be. To pull some numbers out of you-
> know-where, I'd say 25 to 100% of the value, perhaps higher.
The old German Empire had about the highest concentration of state
boundaries known in the world. A simple 100 miles travel could easily
cross up to 50 state boundaries. If each levied say 1% of the goods'
value, you can imagine the increase in price.
River travel was a bit cheaper, but ever now and then there was a
city privileged to call in "staple" duty - the wares had to be
presented to the citizens, who had the _right_ to buy them, rather
than let them through.
> Whatever the market will bear, really, and the people levying the
> tariffs have no idea how to calculate their maximum return.
Look at the Grazers: they have a fairly good idea how high they can
screw their tariffs, and they collect them on the rival trade routes
in the form of highwayman robbery, too.
> As for the Porthomekan Malkioni, they might be anti-Arkat,
> or they might just see Arkat as a great figure who went
> Tragically Wrong. They're probably a mixture of Caladra &
> Aurelion cultists and more traditional Orlanthi and/or Ernalda +
> protector types.
I don't see a strong Orlanthi (in the sense of Heortlings or Vingkotlings)
influence there, only a Theyalan type culture. Private discussion with
Nick resulted in our assumption that Porthomeka was ruled by Caladrian
overlords, who imposed their patriarchal society on the originally
matriarchal Esrolites. I'm not certain either when Esrolia turned to
its matriarchal society nor when the Caladrians invaded Porthomeka first,
so this situation might well be the one Arkat encountered when he came
there around 440 (from the east, btw, after throwing out Palangio out
of Dragon Pass - IMO he debarked off the Dragon River about at
Smithstone, i.e. upriver from Karse). In this case, some Malkioni
followers with a creed not unlike that of the Castle Coast Hrestoli
could have settled there and added their culture to the Caladrian
and Esrolite. Their degree of Henotheism could have varied - 1st Age
Seshnela had a fair measure of that even before Arkat, as the
Serpent Kings testify.
If anybody wants a fire-based henotheist church, I might write one up
- it would be the logical next step after the Aeolians...
> Re: Praxian Yelmalions
> Sandy asked if anybody had any other ideas besides the YO's
> being all recent converts. I think that the Praxians have long
> had Sun myths, perhaps involving Sun Hawk, and that the Praxians
> were open to Solar influence from at least the Dawn Age.
True. The Impalas have possessed the War Arrows Medicine Bundle at the
Dawn, which is of Solar origin. Some months ago there was a suggestion
to re-explain the Solitude of Testing counts of Sun County with native
Sun worshippers, carefully avoiding the name "Yelmalio". (Yes, in the
aftermath of the Elmal cultural shock...) Sun Hawk was one of the
candidates for native Praxian sun spirits.
> During
> that period, the Praxians went to Peloria. Some Sable Riders
> remained (if indeed the Lunar Deer people are not the remnant of
> some earlier migration), but some Praxians probably returned.
Other Praxians remained, too, e.g. Bison riders in Darleep (see
Leonidas), and the Impalas seem to have been assimilated by Solar
nobility in no time at all after Argentium Thri'ile. In 450 the
Bison tribe seems to have been foremost in the occupation of Dara
Happa, along with a certain Vastolf, Son of Quivin (this is from DHBE).
The Bisons were explicitely thrown out by Ordanestyu, then not quite
Emperor, later the Great Advisor. The Darleep dynasty seems to have
survived this unscathed.
> They could have brought Pelorian solar beliefs back with them,
> though whether such believers were organized enough to be called
> a cult is an open question. (By "beliefs," I mean both myth and
> ritual, which should be thought of as inseparable.)
Maybe also Solar wives, which might have incorporated their (distant)
divine Solar ancestors into the pool of Praxian spirits.
The real invasion of Prax by Solar forces occurred with the Pure Horse
People around 620, and lasted to 1250 (Alavan Argay). As I understand it,
they (and Joraz Kyreem, founder of the Zebra tribe, separately) came to
some understanding with the priestesses of the Paps (like Bolo Riders,
Ostrich Riders and Unicorn maidens, too).
The Sun Domers of Arinsor Clearmind finally brought the Dara Happan Solar
deities of war and the Sky Dome into Prax. (No, I don't say "Yelmalio",
but the earlier-than-KoS sources call them this, like Troll Pak, Pavis
and Sun County. I won't speculate about how their main gad wass called now.)
> Historical analogue: the spread of Christianity into Asia
> and Africa ...
I enjoyed this. Another Gloranthan parallel to this is the infiltration
of Solar belief into east Fronela: beginning with survivors from Argentium
Thri'ile, then Emperor Sothenik disappeared accompanying Gonn Orta to the
Nidan Mountains (DHBE again), and Southbank was worshipping "Yelmalio"
when the Lunars arrived. After the Ban they worshipped "Yelm".
______________________________
Bryan Maloney in X-RQ-ID: 6402
> However, I do not own Nomad Gods, so I've no idea at all what the order of
> battle for Moonbroth was.
NG doesn't say anything about Moonbroth. IMO this scenario would be a
combination of DP and NG.
> Does anyone out there have an order of battle for Moonbroth?
Roc and KoS give a few hints, and that's the best I can think of OOMH.
___________________________
David Cake in X-RQ-ID: 6403
> First, a little cultural specifics - family means different things to the
> Doraddi than to the Orlanthi. To the Orlanthi, 'marrying into the family'
> is a weak concept - the children are not necessarily of that tribe, you may
> share no property, etc. To the Doraddi it is a strong concept - all that is
> yours is theirs, you always change tribes if you marry into it, etc.
> Kinship is a more important and more complicated concept in Pamaltela.
Good point, if by Orlanthi you mean Heortling culture. In Esrolia and
similar Theyalan cultures (Old Tarsh, maybe Holay, and possibly
Jarst/Garsting) Orlanth is less important, and has stronger earth ties.
>>He is son of an earth goddess (Kero Fin), husband of Ernalda, prime earth
>>deity of Glorantha, and he is father of if not Voria, then at least
>>Barntar.
> Son of a minor Earth goddess, and one of the many husbands of Ernalda.
Most prominent, though, except in Esrolia.
>> Ok, Orlanth has a few Storm ties, just like Pamalt has
>>a few fire ties...
> Orlanth has relations that are Earth connected, but he himself has no Earth
> powers at all. Pamalt has many Earth powers. Orlanths magic is almost
> entirely Storm magic, Pamalt has no fire magic anymore.
Orlanth as worshipped in Sartar, yes. Orlanth the Husband King would
retain Cloudcall, and maybe Decrease Wind, but might include stronger
plow magic (spells we suspect to exist for Barntar).
Pamalt has little magic "of his own", those spells he has are Earth magic.
"Earth"touch could as well be called "Gain Elfsense". All his most useful
spells are associate magics. Earth and Fire spells keep their balance,
there, with Cronisper, Vangono and Lodril among the givers. Pamalt
adopted the Agimori, men made by the fire deities. Such an adoption
mostly works two ways...
> Birth is not a simple determiner of status in Pamaltela. Pamalt is of the
> Earth tribe (even if he wasn't born there). Orlanth is only related to the
> Earth by marriage - something much less important.
Orlanth is three quarter of Earth, one quarter of Fire, if you split up
Umath. Solar philosopers would make him an earth deity who rebelled,
I suppose, since they deny the elemental nature of Air or Storm.
> There are some comparisons, to the idea of Orlanths Ring, for
> example, but that is more the idea of everyone being the best at their
> individual skill, rather than the idea of the whole being better than the
> parts.
What about the Lightbringers' wyter, Ginna Jar, which developed into
Arachne Solara? This wyter is the sum of all, not each at his best. And
it acted afer each of the other Lightbringers had failed in their
speciality, too. Strikes me as a parallel myth, really.
> Even if this is true, the Orlanthi still acknowledge that Yelm was
> the Emperor for a long while, and that he was a powerful ruler. Molandro
> may have been a tough guy, but he was never acknowledged as a ruler of
> gods.
Weknow little about Molandro, except that Yelm overcame him in the contest
with the previous Guardian, after he had instituted supremacy among his
own tribe by defeating Basko. Lastly he defeated Chaos in Jokbazi by
mustering all resources available.
Look at the Orlanth parallel: First he establishes his supremacy among
his kin (and almost all of them, even nephews and grandnephews like Thryk
the Winter Giant line up to fight), then he disposes of the previous
guardian: Yelm the Emperor, and finally he fights Chaos and overcomes it
by assembling all his kin and even some old foes, having them included
in the net of Arachne Solara.
IMO one could find more of these dynastic (elemental) changes in earlier
myth if one digged deep enough. See my Aeolian Myth for a more complete
outline of this philosophy.
__________________
Free INT 8 is out!
And without me as editor in chief, too. My successors as editors
changed the appearance slightly, and did a good job on it. This
issue has the scheduled higher Cthulhu content, but a lot of other
articles as well.
Contents (for those who can read German 20% or higher, headlines
translated into English):
- "Tarot in Cthulhu", a short essay
- "With Burning Hate", a Cthulhu scenario
- "Germany in the Twenties", historical background for Cthulhu
- "ElfQuest" presentation (both rpg and short intro to the graphic
novel series)
- SiP review
- "Personality of SCs" rules article (RQ, includes parts of the Pendragon
Pass article in Tales 6)
- "Wear and Tear on Armour" rules article (RQ)
- Eurmal spell competition
- "Bow and Arrow" rules article (RQ)
- "Spoken Word of the Emperor" Translation from Tales 2
- Convulsion 94 report
- "Violence is always an option" scenario set in Old Sartar, a sequel
to "Schatten in den Huegeln", our first scenario booklet (plug, plug)
- "Ask Sozia Psi" - a Gloranthan life guide
- comic "The adventures of Eini Einspoon, Stormbull of Fate" (a pun on
the name of the new editor and a typo I produced out of his name in an
earlier issue, also some of the NPCs from "Schatten in den Huegeln")
Members of the German RuneQuest-Society get this for their membership
fee. Else, the price is DM 4.80 plus postage expenses, but I don't know
how willing Ingo Tschinke is to send out single copies - he's quite busy
doing the distribution to shops and members anyway.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de