Bell Digest v941007p1

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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 07 Oct 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.

X-RQ-ID: index

6496: niwe = (Nils Weinander)
 - Dead Kralorelans & some more
6497: davidc = (David Cake)
 - Kitori and stuff
6498: davidc = (David Cake)
 - Zorakarkat
6499: watson = (Colin Watson)
 - Walking corpses; Shamans
6500: SMITHH = (Harald Smith 617 724-9843)
 - red moon rising
6501: langham = (Bernard Langham)
 - Black Arkat, Kitori
6502: CHEN190 = (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
 - Swamps and Orlanth
6503: igorlick = (ian i. gorlick)
 - Brithini resurrection
6504: gerakkag =
 - Non-CA Resurrection
6505: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke)
 - Resurrection; Karse
6506: pheasant = (Nick Eden)
 - Aeolian Heretic speaks
6507: pheasant = (Nick Eden)
 - Return of Geas
6508: sandyp = (Sandy Petersen)
 - Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 06 Oct 1994
6509: aweill = (Andrew J. Weill)
 - Re: Volume 11, no 04, part 1 of 2: Lesser Faiths of Prax
6510: erisie = (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
 - Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 06 Oct 1994, part 2
6511: ddunham = (David Dunham)
 - Orlanth subcults; Aztec swamps; Esrolia
6512: Argrath =
 - Ohlson's questions; disease


From: (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Dead Kralorelans & some more
Message-ID: <>
Date: 6 Oct 94 11:28:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6496

Nils Weinander writing

Simon Lipscomb:
> Nils points out where Kralorerlan souls go when they die. Fair enough. I don't
> know much about Kralorela, but I think we still basically agree that they
> wouldn't want to be brought back.

Yes we agree. I'm sorry if that didn't come through in my posting.

>>Kralorelans in good standing with society get _out of_  
>	Technically, Kralorelans believe in the dragonewt philosohy  
>of "progression". They do believe that good Kralori that have  
>mastered their earthly lives go to Vithela, ultimately to continue  
>this progression and expansion of capacity. 

Well, since they progress out of Glorantha as known by everyone else,
I see that as getting out of the reincarnation cycle which seems to
exist in sky pantheon worshippers' thinking.

Yelmalio armouring geases:

Ian Gorlick and Peter Metcalfe points out the Hill of Gold. OK that's
fair enough, but then why do Humakti have the same stuff? Humakt
didn't loose his armour in any myth I've heard of.

Ignorance architecture:

Peter Metcalfe:
> Really IMO about the Kingdom of Ignorance.  They practice Aztec style 
> religious ceremonies before the New Kingdom of wisdom and their oldest 
> beliefs come from pyramids with picture writing on them which is also 
> a characteristic of Mayan Pyramids.  Ergo the Ignorance architetural 
> styles are (IMO - loosely on factual evidence) based upon the 
> Mesoamericans.

Add in some roman style amphitheaters for the ritual arena combats (or
slaughterings). Oh, and the analogy makes perfect sense. I have a
vague reminiscence from the daily a year ago or so where someone came
up with the idea of inverted pyramids for the Ignorants. Am I remembering
wrong or does someone else recollect this?

/Nils W


From: (David Cake)
Subject: Zorakarkat
Message-ID: <>
Date: 7 Oct 94 05:33:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6498

        Err... ummm.... shuffles feet embarrasedly. I can only find one
reference to Zorakarkat as well, the one in East Ralios. I had a feeling
that there was at least one other, somewhere in Maniria, but it appears
that I was thinking of Kaxtorplose.
        Um... sorry.


From: (Colin Watson)
Subject: Walking corpses; Shamans
Message-ID: <>
Date: 6 Oct 94 16:21:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6499

> > I tend to adhere to the idea that newly-dead spirits retain their STR, CON
> > and DEX for a while after death (though these characteristics are fairly
> > useless in the spirit-world and tend to dissolve in a matter of days).
> I don't know. It sounds like a good thought [...], but I feel DEX,STR and
> CON are part of the body, not the soul. 

But think of it like this: DEX & STR are what allow a creature to
move around and interact with the physical world; CON gives the ability
to respire - breathing, eating etc. Upon death these faculties depart
from the body immediately. (Good thing too, otherwise corpses of the recently
dead could wander about mindlessly (with no INT or POW) as do animate

But corpses don't breathe or move around; they don't have STR or DEX or CON.
The question is where do these faculties go? I suggest they depart with the
spirit, and if the spirit is recovered then they return with the spirit.

> >         If there was to be a ShamanPak[...]
> For something similar, although it is non-RQ and 
> non-Glorantha, I recommend "Shamans" for Ars Magica.

Having recently acquired this supplement I heartily second Erik's sentiment.
"Shamans" contains some very evocative descriptions of the Spirit World
- not the grey and featureless place RQ3 describes.
And remarkably good value for 8 quid or so.



From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 724-9843)
Subject: red moon rising
Date: 6 Oct 94 05:15:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6500

- Eric Rowe comments on the light/view of the Red Moon

I assume this was in response to David Dunham's complaint (shared by 
myself) that the Red Moon should be visible beyond the Glowline, if it is 
indeed in or contesting the Middle Air.

Though Eric's comments are reasonable, I still don't believe they prove 
that the Red Moon can only be viewed within the Glowline.  Remember that 
the Glowline and the Temples of the Reaching Moon didn't exist until Yara 
Aranis was created in the Fourth Wane.  This would imply that you couldn't 
see the Red Moon from the time the goddess rose into the sky until Sheng 
Seleris came on the scene!  Yet the First Inspiration of Moonson claims she 
did rise into the sky, she could view her children on the earth, and I 
would surmise that she could in turn be seen.

A further implication is that if you were outside the Glowline you wouldn't 
know what day of the week it was and whether your magic would have any 

If you look at the map in Codex #2 showing the location of the Middle Air, 
which the Red Goddess is supposed to be contesting, then I think it makes 
a very difficult argument to say it can't be seen from elsewhere outside 
the Glowline.  If she's in the Lower Air, fine then there are mountains 
that would block the view of her, but I've never heard or seen anything to 
suggest this.



From: (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Subject: Swamps and Orlanth
Message-ID: <>
Date: 7 Oct 94 12:24:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6502


>>The marshes are not exactly the healthiest places to live in the RW, 
>>(note how we like to drain our swamps?)
>	There are plenty of people who live in swamps and love it.  
>There are swamp Arabs along the coast of the Red Sea, who have reed  
>boats and hunt marsh boars. There are the bayou folk of Louisiana.  
>There are the Seminole swamp indians of the Everglades. And there are  
>many many other examples. 

I'm not too sure about these examples exemplfying Swamps are good.  
The Bayou folk obviously have the technology to mitigate the worst 
of the swamps side effects such as mosquito netting.  

The others tribes as far as I am aware stick within the swamp because 
it's their home turf and can easily defend it and are acclimatized.  
Other tribes have not taken over the place (the Marsh Arabs of the 
Shatt-al-Arab are very old) because they do not wish to live there 
because of its 'worthlessnes' and the difficulty of invading it.  I 
have never heard of, for instance, of bedouins invading the swamp 
nor marsh arabs emigrating to the desert.

As a result, I would normally posit the existance of swamp humans 
in the minor swamps such as the churlwe marsh (Yes, I know there's 
three kingdoms in the sozganjio.)  The only problem I have with this 
is how much competition would the swamp humans face from the goblins?

IMO, the swamp humans would have to compete with the goblins for 
resources which is on par with a praxian trying to settle in Dagori 
Inkarth.  If a tribe lives outside the swamp and hunts/raids it 
periodically, the swamp humans and the goblins would feel under 
pressure and retailate accordingly.  thus IMO, a expedition into 
the swamps for hunting could easily be transformed as a raid into 
the scummy slime sucking catfish people.  This IMO would transform the
perception of the marshes in the Doraddi perspective to something less 
than flattering.


>SUBJECT: Orlanth subcults

>Various supplements refer to the subcults of Orlanth Rex, Adventurous,
>and Thunderous, but I have no idea where write ups of these are.  Where
>can I find them?  Is there a big difference between each one, or is it 
>more like the difference between Catholic, Episcapalion, and Lutheren?

Having brought this up, I shall respond.  The Orlanth Writeup in River of
Cradles has Orlanth Adventerous embodied in the form of the wind lord 
whereas Orlanth Thunderous is the Storm Voice or Priest.  This is the 
standard writeup (which many people may or may not agree with).  

A Wind Lord seeks to be an embodiment of Orlanth.  Since many of the
myths tell of Orlanth adventuring, the Wind Lord may adventure a lot.  
A lot more myths tell of Orlanth listening to his charges and thus he 
goes and beats up the guilty.  Thus the Wind Lord is almost always 
found in charge of the clan as he is responsible for social justice.

The Storm Voice act as Messenger of the King of the Gods and act 
accordingly.  Some God Learners have speculated they are actually 
the remants of the old Umath Cult who were absorbed by the Orlanth 
Cult.  Just as Umath is Orlanths dad and so Orlanth owes him filial 
piety and so the Wind lord is subserviant to the Storm voice.  For 
this impious learning they were seized and beheaded.

Since the Wind Lord is responsible to the Storm Voice and the Storm 
Voice is prone to random acts of religious estascy (such as climbing 
up tall mountains and jumping off 'to be with the wind'), it is clear 
why Orlanthi civilization always collapses into barbarianism.

To counteract this, mainly to provide an effective response to the EWF, 
the Cult of Orlanth Rex (detailed in Heroes volume i, issue 3 or 4) was 
invented which made the Storm Voices responsible to Tribal Kings who were
convienently selected from the ranks of the clan chiefs (and Wind Voices).
This is found in Ralios, Peloria and Maniria.  Dorasar may have abandoned 
this when he left to settle new pavis.

Other cults of Orlanth known are (no writeups alas!):

Orlanth Dragonfriend:  An EWF Cult.  Probably defunct as the EWF magic to
sustain it no longer is available.  The main thing known about it was that
one could perform both storm and EWF magics without being marked for 
destruction by the wind fists.

Orlanth New Wind:  A cult set up by Lokaymadon during the Empire of Light.
It is dead now but one wonders why the Lunar Empire hasn't tried to 
ressurect this cult to integrate orlanthi belief better into the Empire?

Orlanth Victorious:  An obscure Cult lorded over by Argrath in Pavis.  
Argrath is stated to be a Wind Voice so perhaps this cult allows him 
to access the four magic weapons?

Invisible Orlanth:  A Carmanian Cult.  The benefits of its worship is 
unknown as the Aeolians practice henotheism without contacting this 
spirit.  I would postulate a form of saintly blessing.

--Peter Metcalfe


From: (ian i. gorlick)
Subject: Brithini resurrection
Message-ID: <>
Date: 6 Oct 94 08:13:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6503

I have the impression that the Brithini do not actually believe in the 
soul the way other Gloranthan cultures do. So they probably do not think 
of what they are doing as resurrection any more than we do when someone 
is revived after a brief period of "death". They probably just look at 
it as a very difficult healing. 

In the first few minutes after death, they probably use techniques that 
resemble our own resuscitation techniques. Stabilize the patient by 
using healing spells. Then use artificial respiration and heart massage 
(they may use special magics like Animate Air and Animate Water to force 
the flow of air and blood) to get the system running again. 

Patients who have been dead longer may require much more specialized 
magics to fix problems related to anoxia and eventual tissue decay. 
Obviously it becomes much more difficult as time passes until it 
eventually becomes effectively impossible to resuscitate someone. 


Subject: Non-CA Resurrection
Date: 6 Oct 94 04:22:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6504

Chris Taylor rightly points out that oodles of Shamanic cults (or cults 
with shamanic ties) have divine magics that allow for resurrection -- 
i.e., Daka Fal, Eiritha, Aldrya, Kyger Litor, etc. I'm not sure about 
Seven Mom's shamanic links -- eh, it's probably some gross slimy chaos 
ability. :)  

However, I've gotten used to GMs that drastically limited the ability of 
shamans to obtain divine magic in RQ3.  I myself have never really liked  
the idea that shamans just power up the ol' rune magic link and   
Daka Fal/Horned Man/Great Grampa Bob/Whatever resurrects yon dead 
familial member.

Ergo -- since there is a lot of evidence in both RQ2 and RQ3 that shamans 
_can_ obtain divine resurrection, albeit often in one-use forms, it doesn't 
unbalance the game to allow Shamans to resurrect through a different 
mechanism.  I prefer to use a "shamanic mechanism." Three reasons for this.

First, even though the _end result_ is similar, I (and my players) like it 
when the bells ring, lights flash and spirits go "boo!" -- it's a way to 
emphasize the difference between divine magics and shamanic spirit 
practices. It can allow for some interesting roleplay, too -- the only 
person to be resurrected by a shaman so far decided to go NPC and become 
an apprentice...

Second, we see Aldrya, Kyger Litor, etc encouraging worship of Daka Fal, 
I'm assuming both worship varients/sub-cults/whatever. (Horned Troll for 
the latter? Thorny Bush for the former?). Ergo, I'm not sure that the 
shamanism here is powered by the god in question -- with the caveat that 
the deity is the original ancestor. So who is giving the "divine" 

Third, I like the way it fits into the cultures. Sure, if I happen to be 
the local leader of a troll clan, I just whip out the ol' RQ2 rules and 
exclaim "Waitaminute! Issaries can spell trade!" then run out and join 
said cult. You _can_ still obtain resurrection with a kind GM; i.e., you 
can always trot down to to a CA temple. But I prefer the idea that 
trolls/elves/hsunchen "take care of their own" instead of going to an 
alien pantheon. 
Anyway, thanks for all the comments on non-CA resurrection -- some of 
them have been really insightful.

               *Hey Look! The Sigfile is finally working* 
James Frusetta                "Close the city and tell the people that
Arizona State University       Trolls are coming to call;
Box 871502		       Death and darkness are rushing foward to
Tempe, AZ  85281-1502          take a bite from the walls;       When you listen to Yelm -- Trolls overwhelm."
                                   -- Black Sabbath (the Gloranthan version)


From: (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Resurrection; Karse
Message-ID: <941006183223_100270.337_BHL28-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 6 Oct 94 18:32:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6505

Simon on Malkioni:

> The Brithini are a seperate case IMO. My impression from the description
> in Crucible etc. is that they fear death so much because they don't
> believe in an afterlife or that the soul retains its identity upon death.
> Certainly they would want a method of resurrection but may not feel it to
> be possible.

I can confirm that the Brithini in Greg's MS of "Arkat's Saga" definitely 
have access to Resurrection. It seems ludicrous to categorise this as the 
Divine magic spell rearing its ugly head again. Retreating Brithini troops 
would carry home the heads of their dead comrades, so the sorcerers could 
regrow the bodies and resurrect them. The head's the most efficient load.

As for Shamans only getting Resurrect from "spirit cults", this is IMHO a 
grotesque God Learnerisation. The shaman is dealing with a "Great Spirit", 
but because the God Learners have decreed that this is in fact a "God" it 
doesn't count as bona fide Shamanism?? Typical semantic twaddle.

Mike Dickison on Karse:

A dozen people will tell you this, but:

> Firstly:  Is there more Official info I've missed?

Yep. There was a 1986 Chaosium publication called "Carse: Urban Aid for 
Fantasy Roleplaying" (great title, guys!), a non-Gloranthan city write-up 
that was used in Chaosium's house campaign as the basis for the city of 
Karse, in much the same way as Thieves' World's Sanctuary was used as a 
model for Refuge. It's a damn' good supplement by Midkemia, the people who 
wrote "Cities", and should be relatively easy to Gloranthify. If nothing 
else, you should steal the street plans and perspective maps of the city.  
As for being "Official", who cares? It's your world, after all.

But Karse isn't in Esrolia; it's "Lower Heortland" (down off the plateau). 
The culture is more Western than you'll find in the high lands, on account 
of all that sea trade. Yeah, there'll inevitably be some Esrolian influence 
-- but I doubt there'd be a lot. OTOH, it's your game!

Erik on Malkioni:

> The ethical dimension comes in on the subject: Should I use this spell
> at all?

Not that question: I presume a Malkioni Wizard would think it appropriate  
to cast 'Worship Invisible God' at services. The ethical question is over 
whether an Evil Sorcerer could cast exactly the same spell by performing  
the same ritual. There are real-world arguments which suggest he could do 
so, incidentally: but nobody was interested last time I brought these up.


> Our translators are native speakers of English - while I can express 
> myself somewhat fluently in English, my translations into English 
> are horrible. Ask Nick Brooke...

Joerg writes extremely well in English, and I have told him so often. His 
only problem is that after receiving a corrected idiomatic text for one of 
his articles, he bins it and continues to work from the old version...

Richard Ohlson:

> High Holy Days

Ernalda: Clayday of Fertility Week in Earth Season. The whole week is a 
great fun holy time almost anywhere in the world: Harvest Festival!

Chalana Arroy: Second Week of Sacred Time, presumably with the high spot on 
Wildday (which is her usual Holy Day)

> I have heard a lot about the magazine "Tales of the Reaching Moon",
> people seem to be taking articles from it as gospel. How do I get my
> little hands on a copy?  Are there any back issues anywhere?

If you're in the US, email David Gadbois and ask him for information. (Mind 
you, he's probably calling you already...). He can be reached on:

> Various supplements refer to the subcults of Orlanth Rex, Adventurous,
> and Thunderous, but I have no idea where write ups of these are. Where
> can I find them? Is there a big difference between each one?

The fullest-ever Orlanth write-up was in "Heroes" magazine many years ago. 
This had details for O.Rex not available elsewhere. A slightly-shorter 
version is in River of Cradles, a recent Avalon Hill supplement; it omits 
O.Rex, but is otherwise pretty comprehensive.

As for the others, broadly speaking O.Adventurous is the god of Wind Lords 
and O.Thunderous the god of Storm Voices. In some places they form rival 
cults, but usually they're just different aspects of the same religion. 
Adventurous is more, well, adventurous, emphasising martial prowess and 
heroic derring-do, while Thunderous is a more socially responsible cult. 
Adventurous gets Wind Words and Shield and Magic Weapons, while Thunderous 
gets to call storms and hurl thunderbolts. And Rex gets to lead tribes.

> I was reading the write-up on Orlanth and I noticed something odd.
> Orlanth and Ernalda aren't associate cults.

Which write-up is that? They certainly are; but if there are no Ernaldans 
around (i.e. in Prax), it's a bit of a moot point.

> Am I wrong in believing that Orlanth is a male only cult?

If it suits your game, this can be so. Some people would call Vinga the 
"cult of Orlanth Adventuress" - i.e. women who join Orlanth are *really* 
joining Vinga, but nobody worries too much about this. I think Orlanth is 
for males only, but I know some people out there get upset when the real 
world impinges on Glorantha so I'm usually not dogmatic about it. As for 
Yelm, now...



From: (Nick Eden)
Subject: Aeolian Heretic speaks
Date: 6 Oct 94 18:50:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6506

In-Reply-To: <9410050815.AA07098@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM>

> Also remember the Aolian heratics who allow St CA to function in their
> midst.  I doubt whether they would have accepted her unique gifts if
> they came from a culture that was fervently against resurrection.  

Having spent some time as an Aeolian heretic I would dispute the idea 
that we have a western mindset. Now it could just be that Nick Brooke's 
version for How the West Was One (I'll try not to give anything important 
away) diverges from the standard, but the standard doesn't seem to exist 
in Greg's published writings anyway.

The Aeolians are not Westerners. They have an Orlanthi view of the caste 
systems, they regard the Orlanthi pantheon as saints of their church, 
while giving St Rokar, St Dromar and St Geralnt Flamesword pretty short 
short shrift. basicly they are culturally Theylan's, who have altered the 
worship of the Invisible God to fit their culture.

Just because we heretics regard St CA, the white lady, who the Invisible 
God gave the miraculous powers of healing and ressurection to shouldn't 
be interpreted as meaning that any 'normal' Malkioni would give them the 
time of day, let alone give their beleifs any serious consideration. To 
be frank I've never encounted a much as heretical as the Aeolians and I 
was VERY surprised not to be burnt at the stake during HtWwO.