Bell Digest v941008p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 08 Oct 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
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Precedence: junk

X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.

X-RQ-ID: index

6513: rowe = (Eric Rowe)
 - The Red Moon part 2. Defense of Sid.
6514: rowe = (Eric Rowe)
 - The Red Moon part 2. The defense of Sid.
6515: pyspas = (Paul Snow)
 - Head Hunting and Resurrection
6516: igorlick = (ian i. gorlick)
 - Yelmalio & Humakt armouring geases
6517: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
 - Cities of Heortland
6518: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
 - House of Black Arkat, and Scholar Wyrm
6519: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
 - Pamalt...
6520: yfcw29 = yfcw29@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk
 - German gamers.
6521: sandyp = (Sandy Petersen)
 - Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 07 Oct 1994
6522: 100102.3001 = (Peter J. Whitelaw)
 - Son of Return of Geas
6523: erisie = (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
 - Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 07 Oct 1994, part 1
6524: pearton = (Dave Pearton)
 - Resurection, Ignorance
6525: Argrath = Argrath@aol.com
 - Dara Happan Book of Emperors
6526: jacobus = (Bryan J. Maloney)
 - "Vingha Jar"
6527: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
 - Doraddi, Orlanthi, marriage

---------------------

From: rowe@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Rowe)
Subject: The Red Moon part 2. Defense of Sid.
Message-ID: <199410070919.CAA13747@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 6 Oct 94 19:19:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6513


---------------------

From: rowe@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Rowe)
Subject: The Red Moon part 2. The defense of Sid.
Message-ID: <199410070920.CAA13825@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 6 Oct 94 19:20:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6514


Harald dares suggest that my drinking buddy Sid was incorrect in his
opinion on the visibility of the red moon. To defend Sid's honor I am
forced to reply.

>I assume this was in response to David Dunham's complaint (shared by 
>myself) that the Red Moon should be visible beyond the Glowline, if it is 
>indeed in or contesting the Middle Air.

Actually, it was in response to something I ate. (Don't try the red mushy
peas at the Eat at Geo's at RQ Con 2)

>Though Eric's comments are reasonable, I still don't believe they prove 
>that the Red Moon can only be viewed within the Glowline.  Remember that 
>the Glowline and the Temples of the Reaching Moon didn't exist until Yara 
>Aranis was created in the Fourth Wane.  This would imply that you couldn't 
>see the Red Moon from the time the goddess rose into the sky until Sheng 
>Seleris came on the scene!  Yet the First Inspiration of Moonson claims she 
>did rise into the sky, she could view her children on the earth, and I 
>would surmise that she could in turn be seen.

You're missing the obvious counter-argument that until the Fourth Wane the
moon was just an ordinary chunk of rock. Only at the time of Yana Aranis
and the creation of the reaching moon temples did the moon begin to give
off rays of it's own. Before that the moon was seen the same way you could
see anything, reflected light from the sun. In fact, I think this association
with the glowline and reaching moon temples strengthens my argument. At the
very least it does nothing to lessen it as you suggest.

>A further implication is that if you were outside the Glowline you wouldn't 
>know what day of the week it was and whether your magic would have any 
>effect.

Well, hopefully you can remember what day it is, or ask someone who does.
"Hey, Tulius, what's wrong with my magic today? Everything seems a little
weak for a Fireday?"  "That's because it's Wilday you moron." Heck, that's
what calenders were invented for I hear.

>If you look at the map in Codex #2 showing the location of the Middle Air, 
>which the Red Goddess is supposed to be contesting, then I think it makes 
>a very difficult argument to say it can't be seen from elsewhere outside 
>the Glowline.  If she's in the Lower Air, fine then there are mountains 
>that would block the view of her, but I've never heard or seen anything to 
>suggest this.

It is my contention that she is indeed contesting the for the middle
air, but from the lower air. When Orlanth is finally defeated she will
rise higher and be visible farther than at present. I think the whole
'contesting' idea is in fact that the problem is for the red moon to
rise higher, she must conquer and place temples in Orlanthi lands.

I do not think the Red Moon is visible from the west or the east. If
so, I would have expected Knights and Dragons to have come marching
into central Genertela long ago. So yes, for now the mountains get in
the way. Of course, that is only temporary and soon our glorious
goddess will shine high over all our heads.

>Harald

eric




---------------------

From: pyspas@bath.ac.uk (Paul Snow)
Subject: Head Hunting and Resurrection
Message-ID: 
Date: 7 Oct 94 11:37:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6515

Nick Brooke
----------
> Divine magic spell rearing its ugly head again. Retreating Brithini troops 
> would carry home the heads of their dead comrades, so the sorcerers could 
> regrow the bodies and resurrect them. The head's the most efficient load.

	Does collecting the heads of fallen enemies, in a Celtic-Orlanthi 
way, prevent resurrection?  Anyone got any Gloranthan justifications on why 
Orlanthi should or shouldn't do this?

PAS

---------------------

From: igorlick@bnr.ca (ian i. gorlick)
Subject: Yelmalio & Humakt armouring geases
Message-ID: <_2354_Fri_Oct__7_09:10:54_1994_@bnr.ca>
Date: 7 Oct 94 05:10:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6516



Nils Weinander in rq-id 6496:
>Ian Gorlick and Peter Metcalfe points out the Hill of Gold. OK that's
>fair enough, but then why do Humakti have the same stuff? Humakt
>didn't loose his armour in any myth I've heard of.

Guess that means we'll have to write some!! 

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Pamalt...
Message-ID: 
Date: 7 Oct 94 14:05:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6519


>> What's the point of disagreeing with Sandy Petersen?  

>	I'm starting to like Martin quite a lot .... ;)

As I replied to Martin, it tickles Sandy to give out more info. See, 
it worked! 

> Joerg, one of my most noted "disagreers" (it's something like a  
> Mouseketeer, but shaped more like a stick insect -- those who've seen  
> Joerg and Alex side-by-side know what I mean)

Insect??? Both Alex and I ought to qualify as mammalian life forms, 
primates, not children of Gorakiki.

Stick I can live with...

>>Earth and Fire spells keep their balance, there, with Cronisper,  
>>Vangono and Lodril among the givers. Pamalt adopted the Agimori, men  
>>made by the fire deities. Such an adoption mostly works two ways...

> 	While Cronisper isn't strongly fire-related, admittedly  
> Pamalt likes the various fire gods heaps. HOWEVER, in Pamaltela, I'm  
> not sure that they make the distinction between Earth Powers and Fire  
> Powers that is made in Genertela.

Any elemental division of pantheons seems alien to the Doraddi. What 
about the coastal Pamaltelans (IMO the majority of humans on that 
continent)? Umathela has imported Genertelan creed, Fonrit is dominated 
by the Garangording spirits of oppression and city gods. What about 
Laskal, Maslo and the other coastal regions?

> Lodril, even in Genertela, is sort  
> of an adopted Earth power. The lowfires are sort of Earthy, too.

My latest musings about Peloria, and a reread of Gods of Fire and Light, 
made me think even more that Lodril is partly from earth. According to 
WF10, he merged with a squirming thing on the ground. Since Krarsht (the 
first candidate if this relates to the Footprint myth) still exists as 
a separate entity, I think that Lodril merged with an Earth entity.

>	The Agimori were made by fire gods, but they have an equal  
> amount of Earth in them. 50-50. 

Much like Lodril.

> 	Orlanth is NOT recognized as King in much of Pent, the  
> Wastes, the KoI, the northern parts of Fronela (where the Rathori  
> live), most of central Ralios, etc. And his support is even weaker if  
> you go by population figures rather than geographic spread, since all  
> the high-density regions (with the admitted exception of Kethaela)  
> are non-Orlanth fans.

West King Wind admittedly is not a majority religion in Pent, but the 
only mention of "King" I ever heard wrt Pent. The concept of kings is 
shared between the Theyalans and the Malkioni, and possibly the original 
west Pelorian peoples. Both the Kralori and the Dara Happans call their 
rulers Emperors, and they stress other traits in their rulers than the 
king cultures. (I still suspect that Malkion imported the concept of 
kings from the Storm Gods...)

I agree that most Malkioni have little use for a king of gods. They have 
only one, after all. Peloria is a difficult case because of the various 
rulers who proselytized there, but apart from Carmanian Shahs, all kings 
there follow the role model of Orlanth - the Theyalan (Earth?) King, 
even if the royal cult may be focussed to a different deity. 


> 	Pamalt has myths as complex as anything Orlanth has to boast  
> about, and Pamalt, like Orlanth, is frequently torn between  
> conflicting obligations, desires, needs, and loves. However, UNLIKE  
> Orlanth, he doesn't solve most all of these problems by simply  
> prioritizing his obligations (usually with Ernalda on top), and then  
> going out and bashing the guys whom he decides are the Bad Guys in  
> this situation. Pamalt's myths rarely end with Pamalt beating up  
> anybody, which is almost always the Big Scene in an Orlanth story.  
> Orlanth is a lot more comic-book-like -- every issue's gotta have a  
> big fight scene. Pamalt is like a Jane Austen novel -- slow buildup,  
> subtle background activities, etc. 

This might be why the Doraddi remain alien to me - so do Jane Austen 
novels...

Your average mythophile thinks he has a right to get his heroic clash, 
or at least a Trickster cop-out. A lot of the cautionary tales are 
unpopular because they resemble the unpopular real-life ones too 
closely, I'd guess. Thus the Doraddi "don't let anything unusual happen" 
style of life doesn't feed the roleplayers' urge for action. Let's 
admit it - we want Orlanth in his fight, so that's what we (and his 
worshippers) get.

> Time for a myth about Pamalt

Indeed. A nice one.

> Pamalt asked Lodril, and he said, "No, O my grandson."

Teaser!

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: yfcw29@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk
Subject: German gamers.
Message-ID: <9410071633.aa16890@uk.ac.ed.castle>
Date: 7 Oct 94 15:33:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6520

I know there are a few gamers in Germany on the daily, so I hope you will see
this. The brother of a friend of mine is working in Germany at the moment.
He is a keen roleplayer, but I don't think he has player Runequest. He
is realy keen to get in touch with gamers in Germany. He is not on the
Internet, but his brother Andy is. Andy can be mailed at adavie@uk.oracle.com
and he can give you more details. Perhaps you could mail your 'phone
numbers or addresses to Andy to he can pass them to his brother.

Cheers.

Simon Hibbs
yfcw29@castle.ed.ac.ik

---------------------

From: 100102.3001@compuserve.com (Peter J. Whitelaw)
Subject: Son of Return of Geas
Message-ID: <941007200557_100102.3001_BHJ57-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 7 Oct 94 20:05:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6522

Hi all,

Nick Eden responds to my meandering thoughts on Geases:
[...Good stuff...]
Yup, I see your point.  Thanks for posting it.

BTW I recently tried to e-mail you about you mag 'Read Pheasant Throughout' but
got bounced.  RPT is an RPG mag?  If so, what do I do to get a look at a copy?

All the best,

Peter


---------------------

From: erisie@utu.fi (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 07 Oct 1994, part 1
Message-ID: 
Date: 8 Oct 94 00:56:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6523

Nils Weinander wrote yesterday: 
> Ian Gorlick and Peter Metcalfe points out the Hill of Gold. OK that's
> fair enough, but then why do Humakti have the same stuff? Humakt
> didn't loose his armour in any myth I've heard of.
> _____
It has to do with the Humakti concept of honour and fair play, I think. 
Many of the geases gives the Humakti extra power in some area while 
making himself weaker in arelated area. So the one who always do double 
damage gets no magical healing, the one who can detect others ambushing 
him is forbidden to ambush, and the one who can damage a certain area 
more than is the normal case gets himself to be more damged in a certain 
area because he cannot wear armor there. There is no connection of this 
kind with some of the geases, which I dislike a little, especially the 
"pay extra tithing to increase your stats" thing.

Regarding the Red Moon:
As I remember it (sorry, I cannot check the source and I do not remember 
where I got it from) the Red Moon is clearly visible all over Glorantha, 
or at least Genertela. Inside the Glowline, however, the moon is always (
considered or factually, I do not know) full.

Nick wrote yesterday:> 
> > The ethical dimension comes in on the subject: Should I use this spell
> > at all?
> 
> Not that question: I presume a Malkioni Wizard would think it appropriate  
> to cast 'Worship Invisible God' at services. The ethical question is over 
> whether an Evil Sorcerer could cast exactly the same spell by performing  
> the same ritual. There are real-world arguments which suggest he could do 
> so, incidentally: but nobody was interested last time I brought these up.
> 
IMO, that depends on who attends the service. Have they been acting like 
a True Believer would? If not, perhaps they should not be allowed to give 
their sacrifice to the Invisible God. As I see it, the spell is one-way; 
it is nowhere stated that IG is supposed to respond personally to say 
that "OK, thank you for the MP". When an Evil Sorcerer (or a heretic or 
atheistic Sorcerer, which probably equals evil in the eyes of most Wizards)
casts the spell, he merely fools the community to think they have given the 
proper sacrifice, which of course is a sin. 
I was not around last time - please bring them up again!

---------------------

From: pearton@u.washington.edu (Dave Pearton)
Subject: Resurection, Ignorance
Message-ID: <9410072111.AA01839@stein1.u.washington.edu>
Date: 7 Oct 94 07:11:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6524

Brithini and Resurrection:

I would tend to agree (with igor-lick - great name btw ;) that the 
Brithini tend to view being restored from the dead as a resusitaion 
rather than a resurection.

In addition someone made a (very good) case for various cultures not 
viewing resurection as a good thing.  I just have one problem with this 
in terms of the mostali - he said that they would not try to bring back 
a dead dwarf as they are broken and only fit for disposal.  This is fine 
for heretic dwarves but I think that an iron dwarf killed while defending 
the octomony would be viewed as a broken tool and depending on how useful 
the tool was it might be more cost efficient to repair the tool rather 
than make a new one, particularly in light of the (frankly awful) 
proposals for dwarf reproductions that were discussed here a while ago.  
Heretic dwarves, OTOH, are defective tools and only fit for disposal.

This brings up an interesting point - do the Brithini and dwarves have 
what the theistic cultures would recognise as a soul.  I don't believe 
that they do.  But could a heretic dwarf who joined a lightbringer cult 
be resurected through CA type magic?

-------

The proposal for inverted pyramids and other weird mezoamerican type stuff 
for the KOI came from the _old_ daily, before Henk took 
over.  I believe they were posted by Sandy?  Can you confirm this Sandy, 
and if possible give us a little more on this facinating region?

Yours in nonsense
Yak

-- 
***********************************************************************
Dave Pearton				* ....As I was saying before I
Biochemistry Dept.			* was so rudely interrupted
University of Washington		* by one of my multiple
Seattle					* personalities....
pearton@u.washington.edu		*
pearton@unpsun1.cc.unp.ac.za		* Naked Lunch (W.S. Burroughs)
************************************************************************

---------------------

From: Argrath@aol.com
Subject: Dara Happan Book of Emperors
Message-ID: <9410071739.tn93025@aol.com>
Date: 7 Oct 94 21:39:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6525

The Dara Happan Book of Emperors is not available from Wizard's Attic.  When
I asked what gives, the guy said it will probably not become available until
the RQ Con in January.

--Martin.


---------------------

From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: "Vingha Jar"
Message-ID: <9410080016.AA18398@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 7 Oct 94 14:16:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6526

>>I arbitrarily decided that all my male players would start initiated to 
>>Orlanth, and all the female's would be initiated to Ernalda. (And then they
>>could join a second cult or whatever later, after they learned the world 
>>more.)  Am I wrong in believing that Orlanth is a male only cult?  Or is
>>Vinghe Jar (or whatever the red-head's name is) a hero in the Orlanth cult?



Not to blow my own horn (Okay, I'll blow it)--There is a writeup of the
Vinga subcult on the ftp archive for the daily, ftp.csua.berkeley.edu
The cult is in the /pub/runequest/cults directory.



---------------------

From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Doraddi, Orlanthi, marriage
Message-ID: <9410080512.AA25759@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Oct 94 05:12:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6527


David Cake:
> I hold by what I said - to the Orlanthi, marriage into a clan means pretty
> much what you want it to mean. The marriage bond is primarily a bond
> between two people, the clan is not necessarily involved at all.

Not necessarily, no, as some forms of marriage have "opt-outs".  But that
doesn't mean that most marriages aren't of the sort where clans _are_
involved, or that for such marriages the clans are less important.  Also,
there are (at least historical cases) where Orlanthi clans marry only into
(or "from") certain specific others.  

>         To an Orlanthi, merely living with someone, and remaining
> monogamous, and not joining their clan, is not that unusual.

Well, technically, one doesn't join the clan one "marries into", if I
recall correctly, but this is a fairly notional distinction, I think.
Certain forms of marriage indeed make one less an (effective) part of the
clan, but I doubt they are at all common.

> >> Kinship is a more important and more complicated concept in Pamaltela.

> >I think you just argued that "kithship" was more important, not kinship
> >per se.  (Which you later disagree with, to boot.)

>         I do not think that the Doraddi even accept that dualism.

The left footpath tribes certainly make this distinction.  I'm less clear
how the right hand tribes work, but if you have different relations to
the lineage you've married into and the one you were born into, which
seems to be what you suggest, then they do too, albeit in a more complex
way.

>         Also - to an Orlanthi kinship is bloodline. To a Doraddi, instead
> they have the much stranger concept of lineage, which may not reflect blood
> relations. 

So how do they regard blood relatives _not_ in their lineages, then?

> >For most of the Barbarian Belt, he's _the_ husband of Ernalda.  Esrolia
> >is exceptional, if not unique.

> Ernaldans everywhere seem to grudgingly admit the other husbands, even if
> they would find themselves acceptable.

I might have agreed, were it not for that "the".  I think it's probably
fairly common for _some_ of the (RQ3:5-listed) husbands to be recognised,
where there is some pragmatic or mythic reason for it (like trolls on your
doorstep, say).  Esrolia is not so much unique in that Orlanth's not the
most important, as in that so many are simultaneously recognised.

> Guy Hoyle tantalises
> > Pester [Sandy] so's he'll post [stuff on Kralorelan magic] here.
> >
>         Sandy, consider yourself pestered! 

Sandy, consider yourself pestered more!

Alex.