From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 11 Oct 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk
X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
X-RQ-ID: index
6548: andy = (Andy Campbell)
- The Red mood (again)
6549: davidc = (David Cake)
- Kitori and Pamalt
6550: MOBTOTRM = MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
- Lost Subber
6551: guy.hoyle = guy.hoyle@chrysalis.org
- RUNEQUEST DAI
6552: sandyp = (Sandy Petersen)
- stuff
6553: erisie = (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 10 Oct 1994, part 1
6554: 100116.2616 = (David Hall)
- Before the X-Files start...
6555: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke)
- Shamanism, HtWwO credits
6556: CHEN190 = (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
- slarges
6557: davidc = (David Cake)
- Those damn Kitori and Arkati, still
---------------------
From: andy@bonsai.demon.co.uk (Andy Campbell)
Subject: The Red mood (again)
Message-ID: <17.andy@bonsai.demon.co.uk>
Date: 10 Oct 94 11:55:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6548
I'm pretty sure the Red Moon should be visible from all over the
surface of Glorantha.
Take a look in Elder Secrets, this shows a view of the sky of
Glorantha looking up from the centre of Magasta's Pool. The Red moon
is clearly visible. The description here suggests to me that the
moon is basically visible from anywhere, anytime. I assume the
Glowline is a boundary on the mystical influence of the Moon.
---------------------
From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: Lost Subber
Message-ID: <01HI4P4DBQ4O9N9V3I@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: 11 Oct 94 10:11:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6550
G'day,
Just got back one of my envelopes from my Tales #12 mail-out marked
"address unknown, return to sender" (Elvis song, yes?). The subber is
Kingsley Gardner from Western Australia. The last address I have is
17/169 Railway Pde. Mt Lawley, WA 6050. If anyone knows Mr Gardner could
you ask him to get in touch so I can send him the latest issue of our
magnificent mag.
Cheers
MOB
---------------------
From: guy.hoyle@chrysalis.org
Subject: RUNEQUEST DAI
Message-ID: <9410101118.0FVO102@chrysalis.org>
Date: 10 Oct 94 10:18:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6551
RR> Guy Hoyle >Sandy's got some ideas about Kralorelan magic (NOT
RR> sorcery), and >also about the East Isles. We're currently in
RR> Kralorela in his >campaign, and he's tantalized us with tidbits.
RR> Pester him so's >he'll post it here. David Cake: >Sandy, consider
RR> yourself pestered!
RR> Now see here. I consider it to be my PLAYERS' responsibility to post
RR> info about my campaign on the net, not mine. Especially because
RR> their true motive is just to get me to slip and reveal something in
RR> their futures. Pester Guy, not me.
Oops. That'll show me for posting messages under the influence of a
coupla Foster's. The big oilcans, not the itty-bitty-bottles.
Okay, here's some things to tantalize you. Sandy claims that Kralorelan
magic is skill based. Two examples he gave us. One was a neat map that a
Kralorelan showed us; when you discussed a city, it lit up, rivers
flowed, paths to distant cities showed themselves. Obviously the
mapmaker had a high skill level.
Another example was if someone had a high Writing skill, he could write
the word for "fire" on a slip of paper; when the recipient read it, he
could set the paper on fire.
The former example is a high-magic effect, and undoubtedly involves the
sacrifice of POW; the latter is a low-magic example, involving magic
points.
I don't know much else about this form of magic (nor do our characters,
who are Vikings, dammit!) (Except for my character, a former Herd Man,
of course).
Sorry, Sandy, I'll be more careful next time.
* RM 1.3 * Eval Day 44 * Happy Fun Ball: Still legal in 14 states.
---------------------
From: erisie@utu.fi (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 10 Oct 1994, part 1
Message-ID:
Date: 10 Oct 94 23:44:27 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6553
Bruce Mason wrote:
> The Concept
> -----------
> There is as much of a difference between a sorceror and a
> sorcery user as there is between a Shaman and a person who knows ``Uncle
> Igran's lucky sword spell'' (Bladesharp 2), or a priest and an initiate.
> In RQ3 and RAG (RQ Adventures in Gloranthan) this was done by forbidding
> certain manipulation skills to commoners. Instead I use the concept of
> the ``Vessel.'' This is a Theyalan term for to them a sorceror is a
> meldek or ``Empty Vessel.'' It possible comes from one of the aphorisms
> of Malkion who stated that ``for the grace of God to fill your cup you
> must first empty it.'' This is mundanely taken to refer to the casting
> away or forgetting of pagan magics.
>
> So what is the Vessel. In a sense it is the spiritual or ``hidden'' self
> of the wizard. This is a concept usually applied to shamans or mystery
> cults (I'm talking real world as well as Glorantha here) in which an
> iniatory ritual can awaken a spiritual entity associated with that
> person. In a sense we can draw a threefold relationship between a type
> of magician and her relation to her hidden self.
>
> The Shaman: awakens her hidden self --- the fetch. Partnership.
> The Priest: sacrifices her hidden self to her God. Sacrifice.
> The Wizard: controls her hidden self. Enslavement.
>
> My concept then is that for a person to become a sorceror they undertake
> a lengthy course of study and enlightenment in order for them to prepare
> for a great ritual known as ``The Emptying of the Vessel.'' Once the
> sorceror has successfully completed this she is set apart from others
> spiritually and socially, for the vessel is what allows her to control
> the secrets of sorcery.
Wonderful idea! We need something like this for sorcerers - only I
dislike the tendency to follow the trend "sorcerers ar bad" "enslavement"
is not a pretty word, compare to the very positive "partnership" for
shamans.
The main thing that strikes me while reading the rest of your article is
"With these changes, why not swap 1D100 for 1d20? Calculations would be
much easier, and what do we have to loose?" (Except it being very easy
for new, and not only new, players to understand the concept of "she has 35%
chance of success" something which may actually be very important,
when I think of it).
And rules do not disturb me at all - I confess I still use them while
playing (nowadays a kind of sin in certain circles :-/).
(If you do not get gregged, you may get nicked! :-) And some people would
call a soldier a murderer as well - and they may well be right.....)
---------------------
From: 100270.337@compuserve.com (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Shamanism, HtWwO credits
Message-ID: <941010213319_100270.337_BHL45-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 10 Oct 94 21:33:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6555
_______________
Andrew Raphael:
> You can't build a city in a swamp unless you drain the swamp first.
Tenochtitlan: biggest city in the world in its heyday. (Probably).
_________
Tim Minas said, after a reasonable summary,
> Most Shamans worship gods, even if they treat with them merely as huge
> spirits, and that will be the way they will go about gaining a consider-
> able number of their abilities.
Yeah. But that statement is a God Learnerism of the first order. Shamans
don't have to be "non-Shamanic" (as the RQ rules and your commentary would
imply) to Resurrect or contact deities, etc. It's a normal and natural part
of Shamanic practice. Only the foolish God Learners ever drew a distinction
between talking to the teeny-weeny sword spirits that teach Bladesharp and
talking to the Great Big Sword Spirit who may give you Sever Spirit. Sure,
it's more difficult to do the latter, as you'd expect. Sunspear is harder
to obtain than Ignite! But it's still Shamanism, and not "Divine Magic".
_______
Nick E:
> Well I'd never heard of them before and was going entirely on what Nick
> Brooke had written.
I'll clarify this. I read David Hall's Aeolian write-up and thought it was
a good thing. I may have added commas and improved spellynge a little. But
all of the creative work was his. Credit where it's due.
My sect write-ups, for the record, were the Pelorian/Fronelan bloc (Lunar,
Carmanian, Arrolian, Syanoran, Hrestoli Idealist) and the Castle Coasters.
David wrote all of the rest, and Greg provided helpful feedback and extra
inspirations. I believe we intended to put authors' attributions in rough
order of contribution on the finished versions, but frankly that was the
last thing we were worrying about in the week before Convulsion.
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: CHEN190@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Subject: slarges
Message-ID: <01HI368ZK8IA9YDM5I@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: 10 Oct 94 10:56:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6556
Nils W:
------
>On the other hand, when it comes to Pamaltelan swamps, don't the slarges
>live in them? I thought they weren't your preferrable neighbours.
Nope. The Slarges live in Wongarissi to the West of Pamaltela. Dunno
too much about them. As the land is plains like but more prone to
Dinosaurs it appears they like to inhabit dry areas. Mind you this is one area
of glorantha, I would like to know more about (from a safe distance of course!)
I know the slarges culture is obviously based around the whims and curiousity
of the big'uns and their magic ranges from Shamanism to Sorcery(!) and yet they
have no observable cities or urban settlements. I'm thinking that the
philosopy of the big ones basicly revolves around experimenting with the world
as such and the little ones are their children to obey. I don't think they
have any gods to worship (although their shamans will know of some big
spirits). Does anybody have more info about them other than whats been said of
in elder secrets?
--Peter Metcalfe
---------------------
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Kitori and Pamalt
Message-ID: <199410101246.UAA04709@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 11 Oct 94 04:58:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6549
Joerg on Pamalt
>Your average mythophile thinks he has a right to get his heroic clash,
>or at least a Trickster cop-out. A lot of the cautionary tales are
>unpopular because they resemble the unpopular real-life ones too
>closely, I'd guess. Thus the Doraddi "don't let anything unusual happen"
>style of life doesn't feed the roleplayers' urge for action. Let's
>admit it - we want Orlanth in his fight, so that's what we (and his
>worshippers) get.
I think that you are misinterpreting Pamalt and the Doraddi. The
"don't let anything unusual happen" is certainly part of Doraddi culture,
but they have their overexcitable hero wanna-bes too, the Vangono cult. The
big difference is that they aren't in charge, so fighting on a large scale
is uncommon. Pamalt is a war leader as well as a wise peace time chief, but
he discourages war.
But there is certainly adventure potential among the Doraddi - it
is just differently directed. Single evil villains (especially wicked
sorcerers or chaotic monsters) are more common than wars.
To compare Pamalt and Orlanth again - If we compare the "violence
is always an option"/"there is always another way" to Doraddi myth, Vangono
embodies the first, Pamalts wife and mother-in-law the second, and Pamalt
is the wise chieftain who can balance both. To make another comparison, if
we compared the Ring of Pamalt to the Lightbringers, much of Orlanths place
is taken by Vangono, while Pamalt has elements of Orlanth and Ginna Jar.
There is a long essay of mine on this topic waiting in the Digest
queue - I hope Henk sends it out soon (Henk - if you are still trying to
work out where to split it, split just before the line containing only the
words 'The Wanderers').
On Joergs City List
- this is very useful, I liked it a lot.
>IMO the House of Black Arkat is situated somewhere north of the Kingdom
>of Malkonwal, since I cannot imagine that the du Tumerine Rokari would
>have tolerated this nest of heresies for long.
There are an awful lot of heretics! I think the Rokari achieve
political rule - but I do not think that they have the time to consolidate
religious rule. In the short time that the Rokari run the place, they
hardly have the time to be disbanding every minor temple.
> Compare the map in Uz Lore
>p.33. The IMO most likely place for the House of Black Arkat would be in
>the neighbourhood of Smithstone, roughly at the place where a tributary
>forks north from the Marzeel River, into Sun Dome County. This is
>conveniently equidistant from both the Troll Woods and the Shadow Plateau,
>in a region not infested by other Henotheists or Stygians, close enough to
>cause trouble with Yelmalio worshippers, and within reach for human Kitori
>who want to study there rather than in their woods.
>
I still think that it could easily be farther South, but this is an
OK position. As long as it is out of troll territory, as the trolls already
have their own Arkat temples.
>David and I disagreed whether this necessarily included worship of (other)
>troll deities by the "initiates". Opinions?
>
I second Joergs call for further opinions.
Bear in mind that we are not talking about the Arkat cult in
general, but specifically about the Temple of Black Arkat, which is an
offshoot of the troll Arkat cult.
>>> The Troll Adoption Rite (Book of Uz pp 34-35) is their supreme sacrement.
>
>> A plausible idea, as Arkat himself underwent it, and did particularly well.
>> (see Jonstown Compendium fragment in Troll Gods). It seems unlikely to be
>> common in a cult with no troll members, regarded disdainfully by most
>> trolls, though.
>
>True. The greatest problem I see is to find an adoptive mother within
>the cult, to perform this ritual.
>
But in the Arkat cult within troll territory, it would be much
easier, and the 'supreme sacrament' becomes more common. An interesting
idea.
[Kitori religion]
>IMO Orlanth would be tossed together with Heler into a weather and
>farming god, and maybe a few minor deities from Orlanth's Stead would
>receive the same worship as in Sartar. Ernalda/the Grain Goddess most
>likely are revered as one cult, without any sovereignty aspects - these
>are held by the Kyger Litor priestesses of the troll half of the tribe.
I agree with this conception of Orlanth worship, and note that as forest
dwellers, who live more by hunting, fishing, gathering than by grain based
agriculture, both Orlanth Thunderous, Heler, and the Grain Goddess are not
so important.
I agree that the KL priestess is Queen of the Tribe, but I think
that Ernalda is still quite important. I think that to the Kitori Ernalda
is thought of primarily as the Queen of the Woods.
>
>Such a society wold be extremely individualistic, and tending to shamanism
>rather than henotheism, which craves some civilisatory infrastructure, IMO.
Definately agree. Shamanism has less of the Kolating tradition, and
somewhat of a Dehori tradition, but mostly contacting the various forest
spirits. This is among the humans of course, the trolls differ from normal
practice mostly by the Argan Argar prevalence. Maybe the trolls are into
spiders.
>The Arkati sorcerers could fill the niche occupied by smiths operating
>hidden woodland forges in Real Earth myths and fairy tales - the lack of
>need for charcoal is one of the most severe differences between Glorantha
>and an Iron Age (iron producing) world.
>
The trolls think of smiths rather differently - they are even more
associated with magic, and fequently villainous (they use the frightening
magic of fire).
Still a valid thought.
Cheers
Dave
>-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de