Bell Digest v941014p1

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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 14 Oct 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.

X-RQ-ID: index

6578: SMITHH = (Harald Smith 617 724-9843)
 - rising moon: a suggestion
6579: jonas.schiott = (Jonas Schiott)
 - Arroin and Slarges
6581: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
 - Re: Fazzur and Hendira
6582: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
 - Inverted Pyramids
6583: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
 - Red Moon and Glowline
6584: Mike.Dickison = Mike.Dickison@vuw.ac.nz
 - Porthomeka/Karse/Mucho Esrolia; & Zaranistangi?
6585: CHEN190 = (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
 - Vessel=Solace, Upside down pyramids and slarges
6586: henkl = (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
 - Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed 12 Oct 1994, NOT!
6588: igorlick = (ian i. gorlick)
 - vampire vessels; new Babeester Gor?
6589: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
 - [FormPlural(geas)]
6590: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke)
 - Moon
6591: paul = paul@phyast.pitt.edu
 - Re: Vampires, MOstali, and Presence
6592: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
 - Arkati and Illumination
6593: paul = paul@phyast.pitt.edu
 - Re: FAZZUR THE GREAT
6594: ppofandt = (PAUL POFANDT)
 - Wanted : Collected Grisalda
6595: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
 - In da ahmy now.
6596: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
 - Extrahealing
6597: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
 - Compress those maps!  Smaller!
6598: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
 - Orlanth Rex et al.
6599: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
 - Resurrect
6600: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
 - Humakt geasa: supplemental.
6601: ddunham = (David Dunham)
 - Healers Vows

---------------------

From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 724-9843)
Subject: rising moon: a suggestion
Message-ID: <01HI7Y6E9Y8MS9OLN4@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: 13 Oct 94 02:26:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6578

Hi all--

- Nigel Smith wonders where he read the description of the 'moon rise'.

If I remember correctly it is in the Seven Mothers cult writeup in Cults 
of Prax.  It's actually the piece that helped precipitate the controversy--
some of us feel it has been superceded by later material and others feel 
it is the real truth.

I did come up with one possible suggestion for those who like the rising 
moon idea.

At Castle Blue, Orlanth admits the Red Goddess to the air by giving her a 
place in the Lower Air.  No big deal he thinks as he still rules the Middle 
Air and Upper Air and she is not yet embodied.

End of Zero Wane--Red Goddess embodies herself and takes her place at the 
top of the Lower Air to fully survey her terrain.  She produces her own 
light but it is phased (rotates to see everything).  She is visible 
throughout the Oslir basin (not all Peloria)--this upsets Dara Happans and 
Carmanians who renew fighting.

End of First Wane--Carmanians and Dara Happans defeated.  Red Goddess takes 
her first step up into the Middle Air.  Most of Peloria can see her now--
southern barbarians upset and attack.

End of Second Wane--Southern barbarians defeated by Conquering Daughter.  
Red Goddess takes her second step into the Middle Air.  All of Peloria can 
see her to the edge of the Rockwoods, Sweet Sea, Redlands--Pent nomads 
encounter her sight and get upset.

End of Third Wane--Sheng Seleris limits Red Goddess' rise.  Instead Yara 
Aranis is born and Glowline established.  Those within the Glowline get 
full moon benefit.  Rest of Peloria is still phased.  Her light dims, but 
she does not retreat or advance (I would accept that she is forced back 
down a step here, though I don't see it as necessary).

End of Fourth Wane--Sheng defeated.  Red Goddess takes third step into the 
Middle Air.  Her light now spills over into parts of Pent, Dragon Pass, 
Prax, or Ralios.  More trouble from nomads and southern barbarians, but 
Syndics Ban will prevent further trouble from the west.

End of Fifth Wane.  Night of Horrors and conquest of Tarsh.  Red Goddess 
takes fourth step into the Middle Air.  Her light is now visible throughout 
Central Genertela.  Without significant foes, the Glowline is consolidated 
throughout Oslir basin down to Sartar border--these are prime foes now.

End of Sixth Wane.  Red Goddess takes fifth step into the Middle Air.  Her 
light is now visible throughout Genertela.  People start predicting Hero 
Wars.  Campaign to destroy the cities of Orlanth begins.

End of Seventh Wane.  The Red Goddess prepares to take the sixth step to 
the top of the Middle Air (or perhaps one step below, but she can wrestle 
with Orlanth during the Eighth Wane for the top step).  If she does so, her 
light will be visible throughout Glorantha (or maybe just across the 
oceans)--but the rebellion of Argrath and destruction of the new temple in 
Sartar halts her rise.

I don't think this approach is irreconcilable with the idea of seeing the 
moon 'rise' as one gets closer to its heart (or that it appears to get 
smaller).  Mystical effects are certainly important and impressive to the 
populace.

Harald




---------------------

From: jonas.schiott@vinga.hum.gu.se (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: Arroin and Slarges
Message-ID: <9410131221.AA28590@vinga.hum.gu.se>
Date: 13 Oct 94 14:21:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6579

Richard Ohlson:
>A friend mentioned a CA subcult representing her son.  In this subcult men
>are allowed to become High Healers.  (The only way for men to become priests)
>What do people know about him?

That's Arroin. I don't think there's much mention of him in any RQ3
material I've seen. In CoP, Healers of Arroin are the Rune Lords of
Chalana's cult - they don't have access to Rune Magic ('cause Arroin stayed
behind and used up all his power trying to heal things while Chalana went
off on the LBQ), they're instead masters of the healing _skills_ (and know
a good amount of Battle Magic Healing, too).

_______

Sandy, what does Slarge Metal _look_ like?

(      Jonas Schiott                                   )
(      Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria      )
(      Goteborgs Universitet                           )


---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: Fazzur and Hendira
Message-ID: 
Date: 13 Oct 94 14:39:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6581

David Hall in X-RQ-ID: 6563

> Our subsequent research finds some evidence to support the view that even 
> after his dismissal Fazzur was able to rescue the Queen in a daring and 
> brilliantly conceived combined arms raid. The lovers then returned home to 
> Tarsh. It is clear that some difficulties were experienced with his first 
> wife, but after her strangulation (hey, no-one's perfect) they both lived 
> happily ever after. 

The reports on her strangulation are news to me. How did Onjur the Poet, 
teh son of Fazzur who later led the Fazzurite faction in Tarsh against 
the Phargentites, react to this disposal of his mother?

> Don't you just love happy endings?

How happy, and how long is "ever after" in a land that will be torn 
by civil and external warfare only a couple of years in the future? 
Fazzur is mentioned as the commander of the Tarshite force in 1625, 
where Kallyr repells him at Dangerford, but apparently was recalled 
after this battle, when the Phargentites received command from 
Moirades. He doesn't appear in the CHDP after this battle, but his 
son Onjur does. (pp. 128 and 154)

So: How is Fazzur's relation to Onjur the Poet? What does Onjur do 
in 1621, what in 1625? (And was he irrevocably slain by Mularik Ironeye 
after the capture of Furthest?)

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Inverted Pyramids
Message-ID: 
Date: 13 Oct 94 14:39:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6582

David Dunham in X-RQ-ID: 6571

> BTW, how do the proposed inverted pyramids of the Kingdom of Ignorance
> stand up? Even regular pyramids are tricky (there's a pyramid in Egypt
> which was under construction when another pyramid collapsed; the architects
> accepted a change order, and the slope of the pyramid changes to make the
> whole structure a little lighter).

One possibility: the Ignorants build kind of a mould for the pyramids, 
square amphitheatres with the centre beind a tip pointing downwards. 
This way the blood wouldn't run down (unless the sacrifices were done 
at the base of the pyramids, i.e. upstairs), but collect in the centre 
of the pyramid, to be consumed either by the deity and/or crazed 
cultists.

Imagine an Ignorance acropolis: lots of squarish blocks standing up, 
creating a more forbidding version of modern metropoles with their 
square block habitation ghettos, all sloping down on the inside. The 
practical Kralori might have connected these to a system to collect rain 
in cisterns (but capable of letting the first part, with all the rests 
of dried blood, go somewhere else). Connect these blocks with random 
bridges and stairways, and you get a nightmarish version of Fritz Lang's 
Metropolis.

And the solid parts of the moulds give excellent stables for the trollkin 
workers, too.
-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Red Moon and Glowline
Message-ID: 
Date: 13 Oct 94 14:40:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6583

Eric Rowe intrepidly defends the RQ2 notions of the Glowline and very 
limited visibility of the moon.

Eric proposed that the Red Moon was just an awful big chunk of reddish 
rock hanging in the lower sky before the birth of Yara Aranis and the 
installation of the first Temples of the Reaching Moon.

One thing is certain: before this event, nowhere in the empire (except 
possibly in the Silver Shadow, and of course in the Glowspot of the 
Bat) the "always full" state of Lunar magic was on. IMO because this 
would have the Compromise even more than the very existance of the 
Goddess did anyway.

I agree with Harald that there existd moonlight before the Glowline - 
not only the Battle of Four Arrows of Light, also the Rist Moonburn 
involve light powers.

The Temples of the Reaching Moon (and Argrath's rumoured Reaching Storm 
temples) could be an imitation of the spread of Draconic during the 
Third Council period of the EWF, when the original idea of friendly 
expansion changed into a power-gathering system of oppression. The EWF 
built dragonewt nests in the 2nd Age, the Lunars build TotRM. One thing 
all of these have in common is that they upset the natural order and 
the Compromise and draw the attention of dire foes.

Apart from that, while the Red Moon may seem closer to the Earth in the 
Silver Shadow (apart from trigonometrics), if you make a rule out of 
this, inside the Glowline the moon should appear closer to the earth, 
not farther away. I still think that there are visible change in phase 
within the Glowline, but there is a constant crimson glow above all of 
it that makes the full attention of the Goddess (at least her Reaching 
aspect) known to the denizens.

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed 12 Oct 1994, NOT!
Message-ID: <9410131607.AA13149@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 13 Oct 94 18:07:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6586


Due to system problems no issue was sent last wednesday.
I suppose yesterdays' articles merged with today's Daily.

Cheers,

Henk

---------------------

From: igorlick@bnr.ca (ian i. gorlick)
Subject: vampire vessels; new Babeester Gor?
Message-ID: <_28088_Thu_Oct_13_12:08:59_1994_@bnr.ca>
Date: 13 Oct 94 08:08:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6588

Kevin Rose in RQ-ID: 6562
>... Vampires and other
>creatures that lack POW casting spells whose manipulation depends on 
>the previous expendature of permanent POW.  So, the question I keep 
>coming up with is how does a creature that has no soul create the 
>Vessel? 

>Greg's answer to how vampires cast spirit magic was that they cannot.  
>As they have no permanant power they cannot cast spirit magic.  As the 
>fetch is a part of their soul/POW, a vampire or other creature without 
>permanent POW cannot have one.  So how can they cast sorcery?

My conclusion for the Vivamort cult was that Vampires must make all the 
POW expenditures that they ever will while they are still alive. After 
they are undead, they will be unable to make any more enchantments, or 
POW vessels, etc. If one was using the Vessel system (I am not, but I 
find the concept appealing) then a Vampire who did not have a vessel 
before he was made undead would never get one and would be much more 
limited in the sorcery he could cast, like any other non-professional 
sorceror. Since the sorceror perceives his Vessel to be unliving, then I 
have no problem with it surviving the transformation into undeath, 
something I would not allow for a shaman's fetch. 

Richard Ohlson in RQ-ID: 6575
>I was reading the new write up of Babeester Gor and really liked it.
What new writeup? Where can I get it?

---------------------

From: 100270.337@compuserve.com (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Moon
Message-ID: <941013195525_100270.337_BHL25-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 13 Oct 94 19:55:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6590

____________
Nigel Smith:

> I vaguely remember, but have so far been unable to find, a 'travelogue'
> by someone approaching the glow-line and then continuing on to Glamour.
> This mentioned the change from phasing to an always full moon on cross-
> ing the Glowline and the fact that as you approached Glamour the moon
> appeared lower in the sky, yet seemed to be smaller.

Cults of Prax, Seven Mothers cult notes, had a piece describing how the 
Glowline was at first believed to work, in which the moon appears on the 
horizon as you cross the Glowline and appears to rise and hang above the 
nearest Reaching Moon temple.

This has been superceded in later work, most notably by Elder Secrets. In 
Greg's current thinking, the Red Moon is visible, and visibly goes through 
its phases, both within and beyond the Glowline. This seems to make more 
sense to a lot of folk. But nobody is dictating anything: it's your world 
too!

You might be interested in Joerg's piece on the back of Codex #2: a 
selected accounts of why the moon looks the way it does.

> Wouldn't most of the spirits which possess ressurection spells be CA
> initiates (from various discussions about CA Temple sizes)?

In what sense? Most spirits aren't dead humans. Yeah, spirits which knew 
Resurrection spells (themselves very rare) would most likely be close to 
Chalana Arroy, but is this news?

Bargaining for spirits is another rules-lite thing which could go into a 
largely-descriptive ShamanPak.

___________
Kevin Rose:

Maybe a vampire turns all his POW into Presence? Its magic is similar to, 
but different from, Sorcery, but quantifying it might interfere with MGF. 
Note that the most powerful sorceries (using the word in its correct sense 
meaning "evil magic") are Immortality and Tap -- indistinguishable from 
Vampirism to the outsider. A connection seems highly probable, as does a 
Western origin for the "Cult of Vivamort".

_____________
Harald Smith:

> If the Glowline ensures a full moon and you can't see the moon outside
> the Glowline (as you would propose) why bother with phases?

Quite.

> The dragons don't care or else see [the Moon] as the proper merging of
> dark and light into one.

For now. Ask Argrath...

____________
Bruce Mason:

I know I'm pleased to see ideas of mine first publicised in '93 now being 
re-presented in your Sorcery notes, and I hope Paul Reilly & Mike Holliday 
are, too; but a little credit is always a nice thing to receive.

_______________
Richard Ohlson:

> Challana Arroys are sworn not hurt anything that is not chaotic.  I have 
> allways wondered how they are supposed to tell.  Why isn't there a spell
> to detect Chaos?  Or would it be easier to let Urox teach Challana Arroy
> cultists the sense chaos skill.

Easier still: don't hurt anything. Unless it has tentacles, seven eyes, and 
sings old Naverian folksongs through its fundament. (And even then, can you 
be sure?).

Why should a sworn Healer want to hurt anything? It's not as if they're 
going to be any good at it!

Try to find a copy of Tales #8 for the inside story on Sense Chaos skill. 
It's a special Storm Bull trauma. If everyone joins Storm Bull, then every- 
one will be able to have 'Nam style screaming flashbacks when they catch 
the scent of Broos.

> I suppose there could be sense and detect Law too.

I doubt it. That was IMHO the worst thing about the Cult of Krarsht (I hope 
Stephen managed to cut it from Lords of Terror). Your attitude to Chaos has 
overtones of Moorcock or D&D's Alignment system, which are not appropriate 
in Glorantha. "Law" ain't as important a concept here as "Natural/Normal/ 
Decent/Sane" -- a Storm Bull is in no wise "Lawful", but he's certainly a 
rightful part of the cosmos. And "Neutrality" would be just another word 
for those Chaos-loving Lunar scum and their delusions of "Balance". Not a 
Good Thing at all.

Let's not polarise things too far. The relevant "Us and Them" is Glorantha 
vs. Chaos; not Law vs. Chaos with "Neutrality" in the middle. Maybe weird 
(Illuminated? Lunar? Arkati? God Learner?) philosophers see it differently, 
but the average Gloranthan-in-the-street doesn't think in these terms.

====
Nick
====

"Sounds like a series of rotten fantasy novels" -- Tim Hunter.

---------------------

From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: Vampires, MOstali, and Presence
Message-ID: <9410132007.AA27783@venus.phyast.pitt.edu.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 13 Oct 94 20:07:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6591


  Paul Reilly responding to Kevin:


>if the claim is that the precensce vessel system is a 
>GUTM (grand unified theory of magic) it doesn't make


  Paul Reilly (Presence/Vessel author here.)  THere is no such claim, So I guess
I don't have to refute objections to it.  I guess I do believe that Glorantha
does have overall rules that dictate how the world functions, so I think that
there could be a GUTM, actually just a UTG (Unified Theory of Glorantha) that
would explain Gloranthan physics, magic, etc.  But our understanding of 
that is at best no better than the understanding of Earth scientists in
1800 or so of the GUT for our Universe (still unknown but we are much closer.)

  The Presence system isn't meant to be an attempt at a Universal system,
just a small step toward it, like Faraday's research in our world tied
together the former separate Electricity and Magnetism, in a qualitative way
at first.

>I also have some other problems involving attitudes towards magic by 
>dwarves and many other sorcery users that doesn't really fit Paul's system.

  Paul here.  I've addressed the issue of the Mostali before.  I think that
non-apostate, unbroken Mostali DON'T have what we think of as normal human 
consciousness, instead they are much more "automatic".  They have Presence
INSTEAD OF Power.  Every "standard" dwarf can do the same sort of tricks
with magic that a Human master sorcerer can accomplish only after years of
study.

  Summary:  Humans:  their Power is "alive" and "free" and tends to wander
around doing what it feels like.  This is what gives us the sensation of 
LIVING.  Sorcerers awaken their greater potential (the same potential that
a shaman grows into his Fetch or a priestess gives over to her Goddess) and
instead of "freeing" it to "do its own thing"  they bind it to act in a 
controlled way, usually associating this now restricted Power (=Presence) with
a physical object.  The physical object is a symbol of the magical tool that
the sorcerer has made his otherworld Presence into.  The sorcerer binds,
controls, or symbolically "kills" his potential otherworld self and shapes
it into a magical tool, a tool that can be used as a magical "machine" to
perform various well-controlled but essentially mindless functions.  To the
sorcerer, the shaman is a dangerous lunatic who has NOT learned how to
control his magic.

  This state, while quite "unnatural" for humans (at least, few humans do this
and it is difficult even for them), is the NATURAL STATE of the Mostali spirit.
They are running on autopilot.  A Wizard who got to sit down and analyze
a Mostali worker by watching him with Mystic Vision for many years might
eventually realize that the Mostali was more of a Living Tool (like a Staff)
than a real person.

  A Mostali who wakes into "personhood" (becomes broken) will lose some of
his magical ability and gain free will in exchange.  Is this a good trade or
a poor one?  You be the judge.

   My TENTATIVE theory of Vampires:

  An "index case" Vampire works as follows.  A Sorcerer who knows the ways
of Chaos opens a Void Hole through ritual and invests
his Presence into the Void (instead of into a Staff, etc.)  This Hole is
INSIDE the Sorcerer.  It is hungry for Power and may devour the entire
soul of the Sorcerer, in which case he becomes "undead".

  The Hole in a power _sink_ instead of a source and the reality of Glorantha
is constantly running out through it (as it does through any Chaos 
manifestation).  This weakens the world, but the World Glorantha has plenty
of Power, including much Power in inanimate objects.  This "background
power" would be described by the theists as Power from the Celestial Court
deities who made the fabric of the world, or by First Age Malkioni (and
some modern sects) as the immanent presence of the Invisible God.  (Cf.
Stoic beliefs about GOd's body being a sort of subtle fire that permeates
the Universe)

  OK.  Magic is accomplished by the FLOW of Power.  For a NORMAL sorcerer,
this is HIS Power flowing out into the World.  A Vampiric sorcerer,
(Including Vampires) on the other hand, is using the flow of the
WORLD's power out INTO THE VOID, where it is lost forever to Glorantha.

  OK.  So I would say that Vampires should have a NEGATIVE Presence, which
SUCKS UP Power from the World, with which they can perform magic.  The
bigger the HOLE inside them becomes, the more magic they can perform.  The
original size of the Hole will increase monotonically (perhaps as a simple
proportion?) with the amount of Presence they invest into the Void.  A strong
sorcerer can become a strong vampire.  Second, by feeding more Power to the
Void, they can become stronger.  (Cf. CoT Vivamort rules)

  But there is a drawback to increasing your Vampiric Power this way.  As
the Hole gets bigger, your vampiric sorcery (and vampiric "poowers") become
stronger.  BUT the Hole is Hungrier, and you must feed it more, or suffer
the consequences.

  Ok.  SO that is the Presence theory for Mostali and Vampires.  Does this
make any sense, Kevin?

  I will try to get a Presence writeup onto this list for those who missed
it on the RQ4 list.  NO promises, as I am very busy in "real life".

 - Paul