From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 21 Oct 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. X-RQ-ID: index 6670: lipscomb = lipscomb@vax.ox.ac.uk - Field Guide to Spirits 6671: SMITHH = (Harald Smith 617 724-9843) - trickster note 6672: alex = (Alex Ferguson) - Greg on the Kitori: authorised leak. 6673: igorlick = (ian i. gorlick) - how many spirits can danse on the edge of a broadsword? 6674: igorlick = (ian i. gorlick) - Oriflam en Canada 6675: marcelja = marcelja@lvithn.dnet.sharpwa.com - subscribe to runequest mailing list ??? 6676: watson = (Colin Watson) - Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 20 Oct 1994, part 1 6677: alex = (Alex Ferguson) - Some thoughts on presence/vessel 6678: R.A.Nicholls = (R.A.Nicholls) - Orlanth reprisals and retributions 6679: alex = (Alex Ferguson) - Mostali traits 6680: CHEN190 = (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty) - Splenid Fools. 6681: CHEN190 = (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty) - Pumice, Dwaves and Solace 6682: Mike.Dickison = Mike.Dickison@vuw.ac.nz - Porthomeka; Karse; Screeds on Esrolia 6683: CHEN190 = (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty) - Tenochtilan, Fonrit, Ice Hockey and Pharoahs. 6685: Mike.Dickison = Mike.Dickison@vuw.ac.nz - Esrolia 6686: 100326.446 = (Hugh Foster) - Shamen and Divine Magic 6687: CHEN190 = (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty) - Exigers and Yelmalion Dress Sense. 6688: Mike.Dickison = Mike.Dickison@vuw.ac.nz - Help needed on Esrolia and Karse 6689: ddunham = (David Dunham) - Pamaltela vs Genertela 6690: alex = (Alex Ferguson) - HQ's and Bless Crops. 6691: ddunham = (David Dunham) - Spirit Magic; Trickster, Goons 6692: baj = (baj) - Presense of the dodgy mail systems 6693: henkl = (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland) - messages fwdd... --------------------- From: lipscomb@vax.ox.ac.uk Subject: Field Guide to Spirits Message-ID: <0098639B.2D7DC1FA.20@vax.ox.ac.uk> Date: 20 Oct 94 13:04:19 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6670 David Dunham's comment in Wednesday's daily about the ill-definition of "Cult Spirits" inpsired me to compose the following. I apologise if it's been done before, or if the tone seems a bit God-learnerish for some tastes. Field Guide to Spirits First off, if I'm going to look at the denizens of the spirit plane, it makes sense to examine how the spirit plane / breath world etc. actually functions. As we all know, it exists next-to, and coterminous with the Inner world. IMO, it touches the Inner World only lightly, except in certain spots such as shamanic groves and other Axis Mundi, where the spirit world becomes the dominant reality. I'm tempted to think that everything that has POW has a "shadow" in the spirit plane, and actual spatial dimensions are the same (eg. a man standing 3m away from an enchanted item will be seen as a large aura 3m away from a small aura on the spirit plane). Things that do not have auras (eg. walls, or rather _most_ walls) are invisible from the spirit plane. This is using some of the ideas for the Astral Plane from Shadowrun. Others amongst you may see the spirit plane as a formless place with no Inner World echoes, which is, I think, more how the "official" version is. Primordial Spirits These are those spirits described in the Monsters Book under "Spirits". I see them as the amoeba or plankton of the spirit world. Most of these entities possess only POW, although some have limited INT. These spirits are bits of psychic phenomena possessing an independent existence, much like a virus is a piece of RNA with attitude. They are not intelligent, and behave via tropism. POW spirits These are merely clumps of the stuff of life and vitality (ie POW). These might bud off from POW generating situations such as worship ceremonies, or be life force that never combined with anything else. They do not seek out bodies or markers , they just _are_. Passion Spirits I see these as disembodied emotions waiting to happen. Although only a few negative ones are listed in the Monsters Book, I feel that there must be positive passion spirits out there, although just as debilitating as they overhwlem the possessee. Examples are Euphoria (those inexplicable fits of the giggles explained at last), Ecstasy (a strong desire to dance to repetitive music all night :) and I'm sure the Uleria cult has a few Orgasm spirits in tow. INT spirits These are raw memory, as evidenced by their use as add-on RAM by magicians. This implies that as well as storing spells, one could store the knowledge of a skill, perhaps 5% per point or something, and one might also encounter INT spirits that have all ready been "filled", although I suspect that a free INT spirit would empty itself. Spell Spirits There were some interesting comments on the Thursday daily by someone whose name I forget (sorry) about Spell spirits appearing and serving the caster whent he spell is cast. I see the Spell Spirits as simply a raw, unlearned spell, or perhaps one the "full" INT spirits mentioned above, but I like the idea that the spirit manifests itself with each casting. Perhaps there are two different types. Disease and Healing Spirits Disease spirits could be seen as a chaotic version of healing spirits. A posting a while back described how disease spirits home in on markers, such as broo filth and this fits in nicely with the blind tropism of these POW only spirits. Healing spirits are a sort of manifestation of good health. Other Types Plant spirits are mentioned under Aldrya somewhere (GoG or Elder Secrets, I don't recall) and I expect that these could function like some of the above types, especially POW spirits. Primordial Spirits, as I have termed them, are essentially fragments of identity, and most are manifestations of abstract, spiritual (obviously) concepts. One might expect Honesty, Loyalty, Motivation, Jealousy etc. spirits. The origins of Primordial spirits could be any of several options. They may be the building blocks of the soul, as yet unformed. They may, conversely be the result of breakdown of a soul, perhaps even bits chipped off gods during the gods war (this would especially be the case with cult aligned spirits). Alternatively they are psychic overflow, produced because there is not enough temporal matter to contain them. For example, the site of a mass murder may spawn Fear Spirits, an intense religious ceremony might generate so much life force that POW spirits are formed and so on. I'll leave it at that for the moment. I have comments on Intelligent Spirits, but I'll post them next time. Simon Lipscomb --------------------- From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 724-9843) Subject: trickster note Message-ID: <01HIHRG5G6OAS9P4UM@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU> Date: 20 Oct 94 03:29:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6671 Peter Michaels has some good comments on the Trickster aspects. To his bibliography I would add "The Romance of Reynard the Fox", a classic set of tales of the great French trickster. Harald --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) Subject: Greg on the Kitori: authorised leak. Message-ID: <9410201619.AA03392@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 20 Oct 94 16:19:26 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6672 I wickedly hounded Greg for some answers to the Kitori musings that've been going on here; here's what he said (I think it makes sense minus my questions, most of which he neatly sidestepped in any case.) Sandy, can you add anything with respect to the intent behind the HoBA mention (or otherwise)? Alex. Included messages: >From: Greg Stafford >To: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alexferguson) >Subject: Re: Kitori >Everything about the Kitori is shadowy. Are they trolls, men, some of both, >something new? >I am not sure what the "House of Black Arkat" is. Is this from something I >wrote? Help me focus here. >The Kitori are an old tribe, have been strong and weak at various times. >However, I can guarantee that Arkat is big among the Kitori, and that they >are the main worshippers among the Holy Country for Black Arkat or Arkat the >Troll. Maybe the Kitori were among his sponsors to trolldom. >The Dark Empire of Arkat never reached to Dragon Pass. Arkat just put the OOO >back into power there. > >- g >From: Greg Stafford >To: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alexferguson) >Subject: Re: Kitori >I think that the Kitori are, mostly, some of both in a very unusual >relationship. On "higher than RQ levels" there also some >not-trolls-and-not-men Kitori too. >The Kitori live around Troll Woods, as you suspected. Their territory has >varied over history (as is common). It once included the whole Volsaxi, Wilms >Church and Sun Dome areas. >If the House of Black Arkat exists as is stated there (tjhanks for the >reference) then it is a very minor thing, and its inclusion there is as an >oddity. It sounds like it could be a "refiened and cleaned up" version of the >Kitori Arkat religion, isolated as a school of sorcery. It is more likely to >be in Notchet than in Heortland. >Wakboth never *makes* me do anything. >Because I always volunteer as quickly as possible when it just *asks* me. >Depending upon how it is handled, I think it is quite possible that a number >of combinetheist and Arkati religions/faiths/cults exist. They are both a bit >unorthodox, and likely to attract troubled spiritual dissidents. >I am working on the historical changes of Dara Happan religion now. Like, >when did DH philosophers start discussing the "Nature of Truth" and when >mystery cults became popular, and unpopular, and how all this relates to >Nysalor. >The Holy Country is a transitional area between cultures, and I would expect >to find many of this sort of confused/mixed cult/belief systems. So such >developments are not *incorrect.* >However, I do think that Ralios is a much better place for this type of >thing. The population base is much larger, and can support larger cults, etc. >If you wish, you can just post this letter intact as my latest quotes on the >Kitori, etc. >-g And finally: > Yes, It could easily be a muddled reference to the Kitori, and nothing else. --------------------- From: igorlick@bnr.ca (ian i. gorlick) Subject: how many spirits can danse on the edge of a broadsword? Message-ID: <_21093_Thu_Oct_20_12:14:05_1994_@bnr.ca> Date: 20 Oct 94 08:13:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6673 RE: Paul snow in RQ-ID: 6660 I like your image of the spirit dansing up and down the blade of a bladesharped weapon or cleaning up a wound. However I see some potential logical inconsistencies. What happens when one person casts bladesharp on two weapons? Does the spirit jump back and forth between them? Or does it exist simultaneously in two places? To make it work your way, one either has to keep the spirit bound and in one's possession so it can be released or you have to summon it when you want to cast the spell. Summoning is a very distinct procedure so I can't accept that. If you are keeping the spirit bound, then nobody else has access to it. So the cults and shamans have to provide a different spirit to each person who wants to learn the spell. I am accustomed to think that the priests/shamans have certain spirits that they know well which they summon when a candidate wants to learn a spell. I do like your image though and would like to keep some of it. Maybe what you describe is what the spirit would do if it were present. What a person learns from the spirit is how to cast out a bit of mana that will act in that fashion for a short time. So anyone looking with magical sight will see much what you have described. --------------------- From: igorlick@bnr.ca (ian i. gorlick) Subject: Oriflam en Canada Message-ID: <_21156_Thu_Oct_20_12:14:24_1994_@bnr.ca> Date: 20 Oct 94 08:14:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6674 David Hall in RQ-ID: 6666 >I wonder, does anybody know if Oriflam stuff gets over to shops in >French-speaking Canada? I have managed to find one games shop in Montreal that carries Oriflam products, I'll have to search for their business card. When I was in Quebec City, I was unable to find anyplace that carried their stuff. My own local shop in Ottawa, Fandom II, does carry some Oriflam products, but not many. They find that the prices are too high so the francophones prefer to struggle with the English versions of games rather than pay the premium prices for the French language product. Once "Les Dieux Nomades" is released, I will try to get them to order it in. If that doesn't work then I may be appealing to one of you Euro-Questers to ship me a copy. --------------------- From: marcelja@lvithn.dnet.sharpwa.com Subject: subscribe to runequest mailing list ??? Message-ID: <9410201645.AA04513@berlin.sharpwa.com> Date: 20 Oct 94 02:45:53 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6675 Hello anyone out there ? is this the RuneQuest mailing list?? nick marcelja marcelja@sharpwa.com --------------------- From: watson@csd.abdn.ac.uk (Colin Watson) Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 20 Oct 1994, part 1 Message-ID: <199410201645.RAA14086@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk> Date: 20 Oct 94 18:45:34 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6676 ______________ Thomas Moffatt: > I disagree with you here Colin because I believe spirits only possess INT > and POW. The characteristics of STR CON and DEX are inherently physical > attributes of the body Ghosts only have INT and POW. But wraiths have INT and CON as do ghoul spirits (IMO). Spirits of elementals have STR and POW (no INT). It seems "normal" for human spirits to lose their STR, CON and DEX; but it is not mandatory - some elect (or are forced) to lose their POW and retain their CON; they become undead. Most spirits have no need of STR CON & DEX because these characteristics are generally useless in the spirit world. However, many of the spirits which choose to interact with the physical world (eg. undead who wish to prey upon the world; elementals which are strongly tied to the mundane world) do posess these characteristics. IMO the only "inherently physical" attribute is SIZ. > and therefore are left behind when the spirit leaves. As I've said previously, if a corpse had STR CON and DEX after death it could still wander around mindlessly. RQ does not require that a creature have INT and POW to move about; anything with DEX and(or) STR can do it. The fact that all ability to move and breathe is suddenly lost upon death suggests to me that these characteristics depart with the spirit. And I think they return with the spirit if Resurrection is used. That's why I reckon 5 POW should be used to enchant the corpse in order to bind the spirit back into the body. If you don't like the idea of using a "new" binding enchantment you can consider that the POW is expended to repair the "natural enchantment" of the body. Each characteristic could be bound to a separate body part. INT bound to the head; STR bound to the heart etc (Or whatever Local Custom decrees). Without a minimum set of vital organs Resurrection becomes (nigh on) impossible. ___ CW. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) Subject: Some thoughts on presence/vessel Message-ID: <9410201746.AA04628@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 20 Oct 94 17:46:51 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6677 I feel that the purported advantage of the vessel system(s), of explaining sorcery in similar terms to divine magic and shamanism is probably a weakness: one of the major crocks of the RQ3 sorcery fiasco is the lack of a cultural viewpoint, which I'd rather have, personally, than a theory of (somebody's) One True Glorantha. That being said, it does admittedly help rationalise the difficulty in combining sorcery and other modes of magic. More particularly, it invokes the rationale that sorcerers sacrifice or enslave their "souls" or "hidden selves", when I'm sure most would claim they do no such thing. (I tend to think they're right, also, but that's rather a OTW view in itself.) A typical Westerner would say, I think, that the soul wasn't involved (he might put it as "at risk") at all, and the study of sorcery was purely intellectual. Paul Reilly's explanation of Presence Vampires is partly appealing, and I'm sure he's correct in saying a piece of the void is invoked, and the sorcerer's soul is sacrified to it. Vampires seems to become only the incidental results of becoming a hitherto unknown form of void/vampiric sorcerer, though, and the explanation of "reverse flow" of magical energies seemed a tad woolly. I'd tend to suppose the powers (or spells) were wrought from the magical "backwash" energy from sacrifice to the Void, somewhat like the Chaos Spawn spell. (Hawking radiation? ;-/) Bruce Mason's use of opposed rolls seemed a tad baroque to me: other than proselytising for a particular die-roll convention, what's the rationale for, or advantage in, effectively having the spell roll to try and make the magician fail in his casting attempt? A success test seems more straightforward and adequate to the purpose. There are also a lot of tweaks and modifications, some of dubious-looking play balance (1km of range for 1mp/1Pre, and the intensity escalation in particular). These also seem orthogonal to the basic idea, which could simply, at least as a first stab, substitute Vessel for Free INT as it stands. Alex --------------------- From: R.A.Nicholls@sheffield.ac.uk (R.A.Nicholls) Subject: Orlanth reprisals and retributions Message-ID: <6DEC8925464@Damflask.shef.ac.uk> Date: 20 Oct 94 19:41:25 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6678 Being relatively new to the Daily (I arrived during the Yelmalio/Elmal debate) I don't know if this sort of thing has already been thrashed out. Concerning Orlanth and the Red Goddess having set themselves against each other for the Middle Air (CoP). Say I have a hypothetical Orlanthi clan in Sartar who enlist the help of the Lunars in pressing a land claim (or something more substantial) with threats, force of arms or whatever against an enemy clan. Can this clan still profess to be good Orlanth worshippers? Do they all become inactive? Do Orlanth's Wind Fists etc give them a good seeing to? What would happen during Orlanth worship ceremonies (especially at Sacred Time given the current interest in the Sacred Time and Chaos)? Anybody care to enlighten me? Thanks. Rob --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) Subject: Mostali traits Message-ID: <9410201859.AA07313@seram.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 20 Oct 94 18:59:12 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6679 Joerg muses: > I wonder how this would be expressed in PDP personality traits. Do all > non-individualist dwarfs have the ideal traits of their caste (as they > sart out, later remain within say 15% of these traits? Or do they start > out with an undeveloped personality, like dragonewts? This makes a good deal _more_ sense for dwarfs than 'newts, I reckon. Though their personalities should be somewhat formed, in suitably stereotyped ways. Perhaps they come out the vat with all zeroes, and after suitable Indoctrination, they have 12-15 in Appropriate stats, and still have all others at 0. Alex. --------------------- From: CHEN190@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty) Subject: Splenid Fools. Message-ID: <01HIIL7O1MBOA0WTQN@csc.canterbury.ac.nz> Date: 21 Oct 94 11:47:23 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6680 Tricksters ========== Spurred on by Peter Michaels Trickster description, I had recently given thought as to how the Wonderous Land of Splendor (that's Kralorela to you benighted heathen) fits the trickster archetype in the glorious civilization created by Aptanace the Sage. There exists by the Emperors Command, an state institution of fools. To be admitted to their ranks, one is generally tested by the Sages for the lack of moral sense that marks a Fool. There is no truth in the rumour that the fools are conscripted solely from the ranks of common criminals. Circus Jugglers are known to have been recruited. After a period of training and discipline, people whom are admitted to these ranks are attached to a Circuit Sage [1] as they go about in their travels. The Circuit Sage has the duty of patiently explaining the virtues of wisdom to the Fool in the admittedly futile hope that it may catch. In order to ascertain if a fool has been sufficently enlightened, a circuit sage periodically sets some task to test the fool. This may be, say, 'Bring me the account book of the Tax Collector Hsin-Wu'. The fool rushes of in a spirit of enthusiasm to comply. The Circuit Sage merely expects the fool to run to Hsin-Wu and ask him for the book as anybody of fit and proper moral charcter would do. But no! The Fool has forgetten the twelveth lesson of Righteous Conduct, that relating to Respect for the Property of Others. The Fool breaks into the house of Hsin-Wu while he is out and ransacks his room until he finds the Account Book hidden under the floorboards and brings it to his master. The Master is saddened by the relapse of foolishness in an otherwise promising fellow. But as he begins to correct the Fool, he looks through the Account Book and finds that Hsin-Wu has siphoned money to pay a local tong for his Green Lotus habit. This was takes the lash out of the fools correction as the Tax Collector is removed of his post and Heaven's will is done. [1] Strictly speaking, the Order of the Travellers of the Wheel of Life. They travel around the Land of Splendor seeking to see all is done according to Heavens plan. Other such orders include Keepers of the Whole, Masters of Enlightenment, Epitomes of Perfect Rule and so forth. Rumours persist of hidden orders such as the Burners of Books and the Buriers of Scholars who supposedly root out damnable utterances and the Cursed Liars and Pus-ridden Devils who are claimed to have oversight over the land of Wanzow. These baseless rumours are not given credence by any right thinking Sage. >I don't think Trickster has a chaotic aspect which is >worshipped by chaotic beings. Trickster understands that >Chaos rains on his parade, poops on his party, and otherwise >spoils his fun. He is no supporter of Chaos. Hmm. In many myths, Trickster is the butt of fun. Cf Trickster and Hroolars pantry in GB, and Ratslaff's last joke in the Prosopaedia in GoG. Trickster doesn't necessary have to have all the fun. --Peter Metcalfe