From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 25 Oct 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
X-RQ-ID: index
6718: jonas.schiott = (Jonas Schiott)
- Variant Spirit Magic
6719: pyspas = (Paul Snow)
- What is the secret that only spirits can tell?
6720: hasni = (Richard Ohlson)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 24 Oct 1994, part 1
6721: hasni = (Richard Ohlson)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 24 Oct 1994, part 1
6722: watson = (Colin Watson)
- Kinda wandered off this resurrection thread, ain't we?
6723: sandyp = (Sandy Petersen)
- Pamalt stuff
6724: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke)
- Vogarth? Esrolia. More.
6725: sandyp = (Sandy Petersen)
- Re: a pamalt myth, among other stuff
6726: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- Divine Intervention
6727: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- Where's that dang moon?
6728: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- Pamaltelan Bad Guys
6729: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- More on the Kitori
6730: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- Illimination
6731: jacobus = (Bryan J. Maloney)
- How hot is AN oakfed?
6732: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- Lismelder Humakti, Orlanthi Marriage
6733: ABEAN = (Andrew Bean)
- Temple rituals: Should the enemies be real or costumes?
6734: garydj = garydj@ditard.dit.gov.au
- Allied Spirits & Elementals
---------------------
From: jonas.schiott@vinga.hum.gu.se (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: Variant Spirit Magic
Message-ID: <9410241257.AA15941@vinga.hum.gu.se>
Date: 24 Oct 94 14:57:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6718
David Dunham:
>Again, helper spirits are picturesque, but they don't seem Gloranthan (or
>at least not RQ).
Precisely. But for those who really want 'spiritual' spirit magic, go dig
through the arcives for the RQ4 list: the subject was discussed extensively
for a while (including the exact same concept - the spirit being the spell
- proposed on this list and the exact same counterargument - bladesharp
spirit jumping back and forth between multiple castings).
Does it sound like I'm bored with the discussion? ;-)
( Jonas Schiott )
( Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria )
( Goteborgs Universitet )
---------------------
From: pyspas@bath.ac.uk (Paul Snow)
Subject: What is the secret that only spirits can tell?
Message-ID:
Date: 24 Oct 94 13:12:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6719
David Dunham on spirit magic
----------------------------
> Paul Snow, arguing for helper spirit Spirit Magic, said
> >As we know that people put life force/mana
> >into spells and we know that it is posssible to see active spells at sunset
> >then there must be something to be seen. So, if knowledge of spirit magic
> >lets you know how to guide your lifeforce to create spirit emulators which
> >can operate on the mundane plane then that sounds good to me.
>
Actually I was happily conceding here that helper spirits are _not_
the basis of spirit magic. I was suggesting that in spirit magic the
caster creates a force that acts as if it were a helper spirit. I was
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
reconfirming Ian Gorlick's idea that the magic performed imitates a
helper spirit.
> I think your argument here in fact _disproves_ that there are helper
> spirits, because sorcery and divine magic spells are equally visible at the
> transitional point of sunset. Since there are no spirits involved, you must
> be seeing the actual, raw magic. Hence, you'd see the actual, raw spirit
> magic, not a helper spirit.
>
> Again, helper spirits are picturesque, but they don't seem Gloranthan (or
> at least not RQ).
These are two good points which I accept but I am left with the question
of where are the spirits in spirit magic. It may be that this is just not
a meaningful inquiry about the mechanics of Glorantha. But. The problem
seems to me that if it is knowledge that is communicated from spirit to man
when a spirit magic spell is learnt then why can this knowledge not then
be communicated from man-to-man?
Q. What is the secret that only spirits can tell?
Any comments welcomed
Paul Snow
(A. How to do Spirit Magic ?)
---------------------
From: hasni@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Richard Ohlson)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 24 Oct 1994, part 1
Message-ID:
Date: 24 Oct 94 08:06:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6720
Regarding lay-members in cults:
Obviously laymembers and associate cult members that give magic points to a god
during a high holy day do not send them as efficently as a true initate. Some
cults that are fairly small (CA, Issaries, Lankor Mhy, etc) could also cheat to
get their god magic points. For instance, I had a player that wanted to summon
and bind a power spirit. He was willing to use the Divine Spirit Block, (Which
is not as disgusting under the fourth edition rules as under third). However,
the Lankor Myh that could summon the spirit for him wanted a favor. They had
about twenty power spirit matrix's bound into the alter, which also happend to
have his Allied spirit bound into it. He made the orlanthy beat up as many
spirits as he could and bind them into the alter so that on the HHD, the Allied
spirit could funnel the MP's to Lankhor Mhy. [if you can't send bound spirits
mp's, then perhaps you would have to bind CULT power spirits, which count as
initiates in my book]
Anyhow, the point is this: if all the god's need are magic points, then there
are many ways for the worshipers to ensure that They get them.
---------------------
From: hasni@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Richard Ohlson)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 24 Oct 1994, part 1
Message-ID:
Date: 24 Oct 94 07:54:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6721
T.J. Minas was discussing the survivability of samller cults. Glorantha is
such a polytheist society that I can not imagine every person identifing with
just one god. It seems that pantheons of allied gods are not just for
determining spell availability but reflect the religious beliefs of the people.
I do not remember where I read it (it may have been the 4th edition stuff,
maybe not) but instead of worrying about how many people have a power-link with
a god, it is more important how many magic points get channeled to the god on
his/her high holy day. (Or per year?) Mind you, I would never let the players
know how many MP's Orlanth needs to keep exisiting, but I keep implying that
the encroachment of Lunars is really hurting their god.
The tradition seems to be that on the HHD, everybody gets togethor and dumps
all their mps but one to their god during the ceremony. If the priest blows
his roll, then the god doesn't get them. On seasonal holy days, I presume that
mps are sent to the god, but it isn't as efficent. (maybe 1/5 get's through so
it isn't as critical as going on the HHD)
Also, I would say that initiates are not the only ones able to channel the
magic points. Mind you, that power-link really REALLY helps, but lay members
can help do their part to worship the god. Also, I pretty much rule that an
initiate of Orlanth is a defacto lay-member of his allied cults. This may or
may not give any benifts-though I rule that non-unique spirit magic can be
aquired through the allied cults.
---------------------
From: watson@csd.abdn.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Kinda wandered off this resurrection thread, ain't we?
Message-ID: <199410241850.SAA03381@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 24 Oct 94 18:50:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6722
_____
Sandy asks:
> Why do ghoul spirits have CON?
This is just My Opinion. I consider CON to be a major aspect of
ghoul spirits for two reasons:
1/ It's their appetite. It seems to me that CON gives the ability/need
to respire. Not necessarily breathing but in some way gaining sustenance
from the environment. In the case of ghouls: they must eat.
2/ It's part of their magical nature. Ghoul poison is based on CON.
I think the potency of poison is dependant on the ghoul's spirit, not
on the physical makeup of the corpse it posesses.
And apart from this, I don't like the idea that ghoul spirits only have INT. :-)
There is, of course, a good case for saying ghoul spirits have DEX & STR
too. After all, why should these characteristics be dependent on the corpse
they posess? In fact, as evidence of this, consider that ghouls usually have a
better-than-human STR (4D6 as opposed to 3D6); a ghoul will often have greater
STR than the corpse it posesses.
_____________
Gerard Martin:
> Your argument for a spirit to retain STR, CON and DEX is persuasive
> Colin but we have a few reservations.
Oh, I have reservations too - I'm not completely convinced myself, yet.
> We take the point of view that creatures indigenous to the
> mundane plane require all of their characteristics to do anything, this
> includes wandering about aimlessly ;)
Fair point. So you're saying a corpse has STR DEX & CON, but it just can't
use them? Therefore some (bizarre, clueless) sorcerer would only have to Create
Familiar INT and POW to make a corpse "complete"?
> Is it possible for a body (dead) which has been taken over by a ghoul
> spirit, and thus has no STR or DEX, to be able to move about? According to
> your point of view it isn't, the rules say otherwise.
This is an argument in favour of Ghoul spirits having STR & DEX. Like I said
above, Ghouls have 4D6 STR whereas most humans have only 3D6. This
suggests to me that the STR is an aspect of the ghoul (spirit) rather than
the corpse.
> Delecti the Sorcerer[...] created an enchantment allowing objects to be used
> as a recepticle for the spirits of intelligent creatures that touched it.
Ok, I realise this device is just meant to illustrate your point, but there
are a coupla things which I'll take issue with: I don't like the idea of an
enchantment which can hold an arbitrary spirit - you can't bind an Sylph in
a Gnome-Binding-Enchantment; you shouldn't be able to bind a Dragon in a
Man-Binding-Enchantment...
> One crucial condition was that if an intelligent creature touched the
> enchanted object while it contained another spirit, then the spirits
> exchanged places.
... and similar for bodies. I don't think a Man-spirit should be able to
inhabit a Dragon-body any more than I think a Salamander could inhabit
water.
Having said that, lets assume Delecti uses some fell Chaos-magic which allows
him to cheat; he creates this plate which allows him to swap spirits from
body to body willy-nilly.
[after various swapping takes place...]
> Does the spirit of Tomas have enough strength to keep the dragon upright?
[and later...]
> Using your suggestions Colin, this Duck would have a SIZ of 5, a STR
> of 70 and a CON of 35. How would you explain this anomoly? In our opinion
> this is extremely unrealistic.
Unrealistic compared to what?
Perhaps you are unwilling to accept creatures with disproportionate
SIZ compared to STR & CON? But such creatures can exist (without even swapping
spirits:). A Dragon can be Tapped down to STR 1. A dwarf can, conceivably,
have SIZ 2 and STR 40+ (if a sufficiently large Strength spell is cast). In
a magical world all these things are possible.
It doesn't seem at all unreasonable to me that a human posessed by
the spirit of a Giant would become unnaturally strong. In fact it seems
so patently obvious I don't know why I hadn't thought of it before.
> It was obvious during the discussion that their are a lot of
> contradictions which can arise if one was to take the point of view of
> either argument but we feel that our view is the more suitable in the
> majority of cases.
I have similar feelings. It's often risky (fruitless/thankless/pointless) to
try to derive too much Truth from the rules.
___
CW.
---------------------
From: 100270.337@compuserve.com (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Vogarth? Esrolia. More.
Message-ID: <941024192629_100270.337_BHL85-2@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 24 Oct 94 19:26:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6724
__________
Tim Minas:
> First, spirits possessing STR, DEX and CON. There is apparently,
> a famous Holy Country spirit that has a STR of 1000! Ask Sandy
> for details.
Is this Vogarth the Strong Man, Sandy? Any details??
> By this logic, incidentally, Lhankor Mhy temples are few and far between,
> as are CA ones!
Yes, they are. Surprised?
_______
Esrolia
As for Esrolite men, in my game they joined Husband Cults, which were like
emasculated versions of male gods worshipped elsewhere. So Orlanth ("The
Cloud King") doesn't get Thunderbolts or Lightning, but he can still call
clouds and rain on your crops. Yelm ("The Sun King") can't Sunspear, but he
can Sunripen. The other two principal ones are the River King and the Night
King, based loosely on River Cults and Argan Argar. Again, the rune magic
they provide is mostly fertility-oriented.
(There may also be a host of "occupational" husband gods, but I'm not sure
about these yet).
"Asrelia" is the foreign name for Esrola. She is seen as a hoarding hag by
barbarians, but her proper role is as a treasurer: her priestesses run the
economy (in land, power, grain, "money") of the country.
There were also many leftovers from the hundreds of years of Troll rule.
In my game, Babeester Gor was a minor cult. Esrolia just wasn't dangerous
enough to rate a high presence of these Holy Avengers, until recently (with
the barbarian invasions from Wenelia and elsewhere). The Esrolite army was
made up of husband-cult militias, with poor equipment and little training,
who did not cooperate well together (each husband is a rival to the others,
and their jealousy would mean in DP terms that their units "can't stack").
My Esrolian Earth Pantheon was like an older version of the Six Earths:
their Mother Goddess (Esrola) is a Grandmother Goddess (Asrelia) elsewhere.
They instead followed the ancient Four Corners model: Esrola (the mother
goddess), Ketha (a daughter/grain goddess, something like Persephone), Ty
Kora Tek (the dead/grandmother goddess), and Entru, who I took to be the
local form of Genert (father god), borrowing from Dumuzi/Tammuz/Adonis. One
of these days, I'll try to write it up.
Bryan is 100% correct when he says:
> Esrolia is a very traditional, conservative area. What has worked before
> is what will be tried again. Ties and obligations are stressed. Ties of
> family, ties of oath, ties of tradition.
With the caveat, of course, that everything could change with the recent
death of the Pharaoh: the existing systems no longer work. (That's the
current way, not the Old Way -- but nobody is sure what the Old Way was,
any more. Cf. "RuneQuest Con Compendium" for my thoughts on that matter).
_______________
Simon Lipscomb:
> I don't like the idea of the Command Cult Spirit Spell as it is too all-
> encompassing. I think what should happen is that Command spells taught by
> the cult only function with spirits of the specified type that are allied
> to the cult.
IMHO, it does. I think this is what the rules intended. Perhaps the spell
should have been called "Command Spirit"; and there are no Yelmalion
Fireblade Spell Spirits any more.
_____________
Frankenstein:
> Me! I said it! Peter Metcalfe! Is this a subtle plot by you to get me
> working on the Tales to get it to put out more wacky stuff and for David
> to take my place and start spouting sanity?
Let's hope not, for all our sakes!
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Divine Intervention
Message-ID: <9410242200.AA10010@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 24 Oct 94 22:00:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6726
Michelle Ringo reports:
> Usually, we only get one divine intervention per encounter
Harsh, but fair. The trouble with the existing rules is that they seem
to suggest a "presumption of being able to try a DI", unless the attempts
clearly violate one of the Gregly Maxims. So when you're in trouble,
you can try to teleport out, then if that doesn't work, you can try to
DI for mass healing, or get someone else to try some tokenly different
escape attempt, etc. Bleach.
I think Michelle's approach makes more sense, at least as a presumption.
Exceptions can be made for clearly distinct DI attempts, and allowance
could be made for the whole party attempting the same DI.
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Where's that dang moon?
Message-ID: <9410242303.AA11093@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 24 Oct 94 23:03:27 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6727
Mike Dawson, not Sog University:
> Just for the record, I believe the celestial map in Elder
> secrets--that the moon is visible all over Glorantha and the old
> description in Cults of Prax is wrong.
I vote for: both wrong! Leaving aside miscelleneous other quibbles with the
star map, the position of the Red Moon seems flakey, being too far West,
and too high in the Sky to make ring true. Stephen Martin told me that
there were originally four (I think) star maps at Chaosium for Elder
Secrets, but they got confusingly conflated into the final product. Ho hum.
In the absence of any concrete proposals for the height and size of the
moon, here's mine: the moon is about 30km in diameter, and 1000km high.
This means that it appears as follows:
Silver Shadow: directly overhead, subtends 1.7^o
Mirin's Cross: 61^o above the horizon, subtends 1.5^o
Apple Lane: 45^o above the horizon, subtends 1.2^o
Sog City: 29^o up, subtends 0.9^o
Brithos, Ignorance, Trowjang: 17^o up, subtends 0.5^o
Magasta's Pool: 15^o up, subtends 0.4^o
Jolar: 7^o up, subtends 0.2^o
Recall that the terran moon subtends 0.5^o, and the moon tends to appear
smaller nearer the horizon, for purely visual reasons.
If this bothers anyone for being too cold-bloodedly "factual", read as a
suggestion purely about the _appearance_ of the moon, not necessarily its
physics. Comments welcome.
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Pamaltelan Bad Guys
Message-ID: <9410242143.AA09747@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 24 Oct 94 21:43:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6728
David Cake:
> I would like there to be
> ways for evil people to cast evil magic. Most of the figures of evil in
> Doraddi myth currently are external, like Sikkanos or Vovisibor.
Sandy's myths seem to imply that Sikkanos isn't external, as such, but at
least notionally part of Pamalt's tribe. But then again, most sources of
evil are externalised to a substantial extent: We're good guys, it's those
nasty chaps in the next clan/tribe/nation that are Bad.
> Ogres - I like to think that ogres exist as well.
I'm sure they do -- but they may well be Significantly Different. To
posit the obvious stupid Question: are there any "Agimori" ogres? As
Elder Secrets implies not, let's take this position, for sake of the
argument. (Though at the least, I'm sure there are "mixed race" ogres in
Pamaltelan cities, so for them, read as for Genertelan ogres.) Ogres
might then be a purely external source of evil, rather than one that
works by subterfuge. Maybe many fewer, but more overtly chaotic and
powerful specimens are found, after the usual Pamaltelan pattern of chaos.
I'm not sure I entirely like this theory: for one thing, it might
understandably cause substantial prejudice against ogre-look-alikes
(Wareran and mixed race humans), which is apparently not the case.
> Crocodiles - crocodiles make good powerful and dangerous water spirits.
I'd imagine that a tribe living near such a waterhole would most likely
have a largely positive view of the crocodiles, and their shamans may
regard them as "friendly" spirits (and vice versa). However another,
"enemy" tribe of the first may see the crocodile as a malevolent figure,
and a member of _this_ tribe worshipping the croc spirit would be "evil",
at least from the point of view of his own tribe. Things may not be this
sharply lineated, but I'm sure the position of a tribe in the local
ecology at least colurs their moral attitudes to it.
What (if any) form does Doraddi animal worship take? I'm sure there isn't
much Hsunchenism, and I don't know about tomtemisation, either. Something
under the general naturalist/shamanic heading, but what?
As to the degree to which Doraddi tribes may be "enemies"; I don't think
Doraddi tribes have the same sorts of long-term emnities that Orlanthi
tribes and clans do, with standing blood feuds, and the like, but let's
face it, not everyone can be pals with everyone else, all the time. I
think these hostilities rarely result in significant organised or
premeditated violence, but may manifest itself in ways such as not being
able to marry into the deprecated tribe, lack of a formal penalty or
punishment if you happen to kill such a tribesman, and they may be ritual,
or not-so-ritual, opponents in ceremonies or quests.
Alex.