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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 25 Oct 1994, part 2
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: More on the Kitori
Message-ID: <9410242322.AA11377@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 24 Oct 94 23:22:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6729
David Cake catches the Last Word complaint:
> >> I think that the marriage probably happened at the
> >> time of the OOO's rule [...]
> Its only three or four hundred years or so!
I wasn't clear when during the OOO's rule you meant. I think they're a
good deal older than this. (Though I'm not at all certain when the OOO's
rule did begin, anyway -- perhaps around the Dawn.)
> And in any case, just because something is old enough to be
> mythical doesn't mean that it is forgotten, if it is important.
But this seems much more Inconvenient that Important, which is an
excellent recipe for being forgotten.
> As for your
> scepticism as to what really happened - I accept David Halls info from
> Chaosium, which says that they started as two tribes, trolls native to the
> Troll Woods, and human Argan Argari refugees from the OOO's reign.
David H. didn't say the refugees were of a (single) human tribe, though, so
I'm far from Gregged (Davided? Halled??). The trolls would presumably have
had, at that point, the generic trollish Big Clan tribal structure, which
fits in perfectly well with my own "adoptees" suggestion.
> >If
> >each worships separate sets of ancestors, or one doesn't at all, then this
> >rather underscore the separateness of their origins.
> I think that most ancestor worship is directed at the clan level
> anyway, so ancestor worship is always about separate sets of ancestors
> (isn't that what clans are?).
It's what human clans are, but I don't think trolls make this tribe/clan
distinction, at least not at all sharply. Which raises the question of
how the Kitori are organised: like a "federal" human tribe, like a rather
amorphous troll tribe, with less marked subdivisions, or with each "half"
organised by species?
> They do consider the troll and human clans to be related, though.
This would suggest the second, which I'd tend to go with, provisionally.
> I do think that they have a single cult worshipped by both tribes,
> but I think that it is AA [...]
I don't see the two as necessarily being in conflict: the "founder(s)"
could be worshipped in a AA (OOO-like?) subcult.
> >> The Kitori allow human clans, but apart from that are
> >> probably organised on relatively conventional lines.
> I think that they acknowledge a common ancestress, a troll queen
> who married the human king. That does not mean that the Queen is seen as
> ruler of the tribe, though.
I wasn't suggesting this; indeed, this is another departure from the
relatively conventional, since a troll queen obviously will normally rule
the whole tribe.
> Try telling the Elder Kin that all the trollkin tribe members
> should be allowed into the cult!
No problem, since they already are: all the other trollkin are just
tribal or individual property, not tribe members.
> It is only KL that requires initiates to be trolls, and I think that it
> is a major tenet of the cult.
Just as it's a major tenet of all "normal" troll clans/tribes that members
be trolls, and have the blood of the tribal ancestor.
> I think that your average troll would find your non-distinction
> between tribe and cult to show a lot of ignorance!
I'll hold out a photocopy of section three of the KL writeup, mutter "eat
this instead of me" in Darktongue, and retire hastily.
Alex.
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Illimination
Message-ID: <9410242323.AA11459@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 24 Oct 94 23:23:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6730
Jonas Schiott jumps at my feed line:
> >[maybe various] Arkat cults, had their own "system of information"
> >which was like Illumination in some ways (such as ability to detect
> >Illuminates, I'm tempted to guess)
> Philosophy classes on "Sophistic Gbaji Rhetoric, and How To Refute It"?
Or on "evil chaos scum, and how to squish it", given the large troll
contingent among Arkat worshippers.
What I think Greg's getting at is a system of information about the
_Universe_, just as Illuminants have theirs. ("Chaos is Not Inherently
Evil." "Morality is self-imposed.") And similarly, it's not purely
intellectual, but has a large slice of the intuitionist or mystical.
> >What I'm suggesting is that it's basically a
> >philosophical distinction, and trying to classify individuals by it is a
> >bit pointless.
> Whoa, that's deep! ;-) You mean you refuse to classify individuals
> according to their philosophical beliefs? Or do you mean by "philosophical"
> that the distinction is purely _technical_; only names the end points of a
> spectrum, or is only applicable to the 'atomary' components of a belief
> structure?
Woo, that's deeper! ;-) What I mean is that Light/Dark is something that
people sit around theorising about: given an individual, trying to determine
which, if either, he might be is pretty much impossible. "He's nice to
little kittens, but is terribly rude to his mother: obviously a dark-sider."
Such theories seem to be without particular application, to me.
Each Illuminoid's "philosophical" belief about _itself_ is almost certain
to be either "I'm a Light-sider, of course!" or "The distinction is
bollocks", whatever anyone else would say about 'em.
Alex.
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From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: How hot is AN oakfed?
Message-ID: <9410242004.AA07123@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 24 Oct 94 10:04:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6731
I'm doing up army lists for running Moonbroth as a miniatures battle. I'm
having to make up most from whole cloth (I won't run out to buy Dragon Pass
just for this purpose) and the sketchy information in RoC and SC. I've also
taken a look a troop types and dispositions for the Alexandrian and
very early Roman armies (pre-maniple legions).
The only thing on which I draw a complete blank is the fact that the shamans
of the Praxians have summoned an oakfed. How powerful is this particular
oakfed? I'm not talking about the Theyalan "Oakfed"--a demigod but the
Praxian "an oakfed", which I'm taking to be a large elemental or fire
spirit of some kind, but still within mortal comprehension. Ideally, I'd
like to know how many Byzantine fire siphons it would be equivalent to.
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Lismelder Humakti, Orlanthi Marriage
Message-ID: <9410241851.AA06074@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 24 Oct 94 18:51:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6732
David Hall doesn't really understand my objections:
> In the Lismelder tribe Humakti only have a role at the tribal level. They
> don't have any loyalty to clan - beyond contractual obligations and
> left-over family loyalty. They serve the king and the tribe.
I think David and I are basicaslly agreeing about "Humakti", but differing
on "Lismelder". Since I have only the vaguest of notions about the latter,
I'll be happy to be Clarified upon...
But I'm still a tad skeptical about the degree to which Lismelder Humakti
renounce all clan loyalties: after all, Indrodar is surnamed after one clan,
and is the _founder_ of another (according to David's own material).
> So, it would be extremely unlikely for a Humakti to become a chieftain.
> [...] The Humakti's role is not that of community leader [...]
> When the tribal king is chosen he must become an initiate of the Humakti
I sense an apparent inconsistency here. Or are you drawing a distinction
between Real Humakti and someone initiated for mainly ceremonial and
traditional reasons?
Maybe David has in mind something like this: the Humakti are effectively
a "clan" of their own -- a clan one dies into, rather than being born
into it. The tribal king is "chieftain" of this "clan", and is formally
separated from his formal clan, allegedly making him more impartial
between the "normal" clans, which are presumably organised much like
the clans of other Sartarite tribes.
If a Humakti marries a non-Humakti (are they allowed?) I'd think any
children would belong to the non-Humakti's clan. But what if (perish
the thought) two Humakti reproduce?
This raises another organisational question in my mind: What proportion
of the Lismelder are Humakti?
> Orlanthi Marriage: [...]
> An Orlanthi priest officiates, but the couple also receive sponsorship and
> gifts from Lightbringer representatives.
I think we're forgetting someone here.
<*Ernalda boinks David*>
Ah yes. I suspect that an Ernaldan and an Orlanthi jointly officiate,
with, as David says, Lightbringers or other associates as locally important
pitching in too. If anyone has a fullish version of _the Marriage of
Orlanth and Ernalda_ stowed away, this should give us a large clue about
the rough form of the ceremony.
> I'm also toying with the idea that these people also act as
> Godfathers/mothers to the marriage.
Nice idea. A personal Marriage Ring, as it were.
Alex.
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From: garydj@ditard.dit.gov.au
Subject: Allied Spirits & Elementals
Message-ID: <9409257831.AA783126994@ditard.dit.gov.au>
Date: 25 Oct 94 15:16:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6734
I enjoyed Simon Lipscomb's Field Guide to Spirits. I have a couple of
ideas I would like to add to his discussion.
Allied Spirits
I think there are two types of allied spirits. The first is a spirit
which has been placed in an inanimate object such as a sword or a
helmet. I see this kind of ally as being like a bound magic
spirit. It is sent by the deity or bestowed by the temple, depending
on your point of view.
The second type of allied spirit is a fixed INT creature which has
been awakened to serve as an ally. In this category I would place a
Light Son's vrok hawk ally or a Wind Lord's alynx. This type of ally
is a complete creature with rolled STR, CON, SIZ, INT, POW and DEX.
In terms of rules mechanics, it can be treated like any other non
player character.
Cults who use animal allies should have an appropriate divine spell to
awaken the INT of an animal. Yelmalio should have Awaken Vrok Hawk,
for example, and Orlanth should have Awaken Alynx. I haven't played
this out myself, but I would be inclined to make Awaken [Cult Animal]
a one or two point one use rune magic. The spell would give the newly
awaken animal a rolled INT of 3d6 with the minimum being the
creature's previous fixed INT.
I'm attracted to this idea because I have never liked the concept of
binding a spirit into a living animal. I don't see it as being the
same as binding a spirit into an enchantment. What happens to the
spirit of the animal? The animal could be possessed by the allied
spirit, but this seems a cruel thing for Yelmalions to do to their
vrok hawks or Orlanthi to do to their alynxes. It seems more
appropriate to me if, instead of binding or possessing their favourite
animals, they awaken the animal's INT.
Elementals
Another rulesish thing I have never been happy with is the idea
elementals have hit points. Like binding spirits into animals, its
seems a hold over from RQ2. Elementals have SIZ, but not CON. To me,
this means they should have armour points, but not hit points. Just
like an inanimate object has armour points, but not hit points. I
haven't worked out the exact details of how many armour points each
elemental should have, but giving them armour points may mean they
might not be so easily destroyed by a couple of good sword hits.
Comments, flames anybody?
Gary James
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Pamalt stuff
Message-ID: <9410241911.AA22398@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 24 Oct 94 05:11:48 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6723
Here is a reasonably complete list of the most widespread cults in Jolar and environs.
Obviously other gods exist, but for instance, if you travel throughout Tarien, Jolar, and
Kothar, the tribes will know of the existence of "Aleshmara" (admittedly, only the tribal
wise men may have heard of her in the wilder parts of Tarien), possibly under another
name.
The worship of these deities was spread throughout the area of the Six-Legged
Empire by Hon Hoolbiktu's organization. Most of them were NOT part of the Empire
itself, which had its own gods.
ALESHMARA: an Old Woman's cult. She is oft-worshiped in the oases, but is also
worshiped by older women in the roaming tribes. She is Pamalt's mother-in-law, and is
almost always portrayed as friendly to Pamalt.
BOLONGO: the hollow mask, the major Doraddi trickster sect. His worshipers, while
pitied, are not necessarily tolerated. He is sometimes seen as a villain, and is not
considered to be as "mischievous" as is Eurmal, for instance.
CRONISPER THE WISE: the only major Old Man cult, in contrast to the multiplicity of
important Old Women cults. One of his major purposes is to act as the praise-singer of
Pamalt.
DUALA: the daughter of Faranar and Pamalt. She is born every year and makes the
good rain come (as opposed to the bad rain). The God Learners originally equated her
with Voria, in their attempt to turn all Pamalt's Necklace into an Earth pantheon. The
Six-Legged Empire later decided that Duala was not quite the same as Voria.
FARANAR: the major woman's god. Only unmarried men can worship her, and they
cannot rise beyond initiate status. Women can worship Pamalt, and many do --
Faranar is their special cult, though.
HONDORI MAL: a female deity generally agreed by the Six Leggers and God Learners
to be the local equivalent of Babeester Gor. The cult's main job is to guard the oases
in times of trouble, since the old men and women who dwell there can't do it for
themselves. Unlike Babeester Gor, both men and women can join this cult (though the
cult hierarchy is structured so as to advance women more quickly), and they rarely go
on quests to track down malefactors, such jobs being left to the local Pamalt chieftain
and his Vangono warriors.
In addition to acting as guards (mostly against crop-destroying dinosaurs), the
Hondori Mal initiates serve the oasis in other ways, building structures, repairing
temples and holy spots, even doing some farm work. They also act as substitutes for
the Justice of Pamalt, and a court of four Hondori Mal initiates is recognized as able to
institute legal penalties almost anywhere in the Doraddi lands.
JMIJIE: a god for wanderers who belong to no tribe. He has lots of mobility spells and
might actually be some sort of advanced form of the Mastakos sect, an obscure
rarely-worshiped god of Genertela.
KERAUN: her worshipers are also called Weather Witches, and sit in wattle huts,
accumulating power to alter the weather in any way they see fit. The Pamalt Chieftains
sometimes ask them to adjust the weather for special occasions.
KUANGOA: an Old Woman cult, worshiped almost exclusively in the oases. She is the
custodian of accumulated lore and knowledge. The God Learners called her "Asrelia",
and she does bear some resemblances. She's as much like Lhankor Mhy as Asrelia in
my book, however.
LODRIL: the ancestor and creator. He's not worshiped too much, tho.
LOKOMAL: The Six Legged Empire's God Learners recognized Lokomal as Maran
Gor, but the parallel is kind of thin. She is more worshiped here for her spawn, the
dinosaurs, than for any supposed earthshaking abilities.
NORUMA: the god of shamans and magic. Most shamans at least toy with this cult.
NYANKA: a fertility goddess, esp. of childbirth. She is a rather domestic woman's cult,
like Faranar. Many women become initiates with their first pregnancy, then abandon
membership till next time they're pregnant, when they reactivate it. Nyanka also has
useful healing powers against disease, and full-time Nyanka worshipers are not
uncommon. But even the God Learners didn't think she was Chalana Arroy.
PAMALT: the main god. Probably more people worship him than any other god (in
Jolar).
PLANT BROTHERS: a shamanistic sect, involved with ancestor worship, lineages,
and magic herbs. More common in Tarien.
RASOUT: the most common hunter god. He's like hunter gods everywhere.
SIKKANOS: The Six Legged Empire claimed this to be Gagarth, but this is plainly
foolish, as the cult structure and spells are entirely different. Some scholars claimed
that Sikkanos is Vadrus himself. More conservative Theyalan philosophers simply
claime Sikkanos as one of Vadrus's kids. Some Fonritian philosophers claim that
Sikkanos is Orlanth Criminous, as good an explanation as any.
Though Sikkanos is regarded as a wholly evil sect, and only bad folk worship him,
yet a Sikkanos bandit shows up every Sacred Time to ask the local Pamalt Chieftain
what his yearly request might be. The Chieftain may then ask the Sikkanos folk for one
favor. If the Sikkanos folk cannot provide the favor, then they must, instead, refrain
from harming anyone in that Chieftain's tribe or anyone in any oasis in his domain for
the rest of that year. Most Chieftains ask the Sikkanos bandits for the traditional
impossible "rock from Enmal", thus ensuring safety for another year.
SIKASSO: Yet another Old Woman cult, Sikasso is the Doraddi psychopomp. Her cult
members are witches, knowing black magic, and calling on the underworld for their
strength. They often appear as villains in Doraddi tales, but the same tales sometimes
portray them as using their dark powers in the service of good.
While the Doraddi generally consider the Sikasso women to be rather ambiguous,
at best, at least they're _their_ witches. They're preferable to Fonritians, for instance.
VANGONO: A wargod. The "default" wargod of Pamaltela. Most warriors don't worship
Vangono, but stick to Pamalt, Rasout, or whatever their traditional gods are. The
numerous war gods in Genertela would leave the average Doraddi puzzled and awed.
YANMORLA: another Old Woman cult. Old women in Pamaltela have more power
than probably any other society in the world, with the possible exception of trollkind.
Yanmorla is the "good" version of Sikasso, a fine example of earth-cult dualism. She
does good magic for the benefit of all.