Bell Digest v941029p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 29 Oct 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk

X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.

X-RQ-ID: index

6764: henkl = (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
 - Re: Nick Brooke on Cannibal Cult...
6765: watson = (Colin Watson)
 - Organs & stats
6766: sandyp = (Sandy Petersen)
 - Re:what?
6767: yfcw29 = yfcw29@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk
 - Sprirts & Shamans
6768: pheasant = (Nick Eden)
 - Humakt the Comic
6769: sandyp = (Sandy Petersen)
 - stuff
6770: mmorrison = (Michael C. Morrison 8-543-4706)
 - Gaming stores in NYC
6771: henkl = (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
 - Re: Sprirts & Shamans
6772: henkl = (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
 - Re: your mail
6773: ddunham = (David Dunham)
 - Eat Enemy; Priestly requirements
6774: scotty = (Scott Haney)
 - Organs, Elements, and Stats
6775: scotty = (Scott Haney)
 - Shamans and held spirits
6776: nam = (Nicholas Marcelja)
 - Game mechanics RQ2 to RQ3

---------------------

From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: Nick Brooke on Cannibal Cult...
Message-ID: <9410280821.AA29079@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 28 Oct 94 08:21:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6764

    "albino cannibals in the sewers of Furthest."

And you think you can get away with that?

-- 
Henk	|	Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[]	|	RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
	|	In every shell script there's a small one trying to escape.

---------------------

From: watson@csd.abdn.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Organs & stats
Message-ID: <199410281214.MAA12347@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 28 Oct 94 12:14:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6765

____________
Sandy's list:
> STR: heart
> CON: bowels
> SIZ: bones
> INT: brain 
> POW: liver
> DEX: hands
> APP: skin

Why hands for DEX? Ok hands are useful for manipulation; so they represent
some aspect of DEX. But agility in general is not really hampered by lack of
hands.

The other bodyparts listed are pretty-much vital to sustaining life; removal
would result in death just as if the stat had been reduced to 0. But hands?
Loss of hands need not be fatal. And they can be regrown.

Personally I prefer Lewis's (troll inspired) suggestion of linking DEX with
sinews. An even better alternative would be the spine.

Other than that, the list makes perfect sense.
___
CW.

---------------------

From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re:what?
Message-ID: <9410281724.AA12549@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 28 Oct 94 03:25:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6766

Colin Watson:
>I'm willing to go along with the idea that a Ghost is just a Magic  
>Spirit with attitude
	They differ in the crucial point that a Magic Spirit cannot  
initiate spirit combat. 

>I consider Intellect spirits to be the ghosts of animals; and Power  
>spirits to be the ghosts of plants (which lack INT)
	But you can use the INT but not the MPs of an intellect  
spirit, and you can use the MPs of a power spirit. Yet you can't use  
either in a Magic spirit (it has to cast the spells itself -- you  
don't get access to its' INT or MPs directly). 

	This was done because Greg felt that the traditional Allied  
spirit, who let you use its INT and its MPs, and could cast spells,  
was very powerful, and should be considered (one of) the most useful  
spirits available. Note that none of the garden-variety spirits left  
in RQ III can do all those cool things. 


Dave Dunham:
>A spirit needs its own pair of eyes to be able to perceive the  
>world.
	This is true, but there are ways around it. A Magic Spirit  
bound into a torc, for instance, can be told to cast Second Sight --  
_then_ it can see other people to cast spells at them. 


Jake Meredith:
>My main problem with Control  is that it is HORRIBLY weak 

>compared to other magic systems mastery spells. 

	Yes, but it is FLEXIBLE. It mirrors the whole difference  
between spirit magic and divine. Your example has a fire elemental  
ravaging the tribe, and the shaman taking an hour to use Control  
species to get it. If the fire elemental was ravaging an Orlanthi  
village, the priests wouldh't be able to control it at all! Of  
course, if it was an air or earth elemental, the Orlanthi would have  
things under control in a matter of minutes. The spiritist can  
control _anything_, but nothing is easy. The priest has a much more  
restricted range of possibilities, but he's powerful within that  
range.
	Probably your shaman should deal with the fire elemental by  
unleashing the undine he's got bound in his fetch for just such a  
contingency. And if he _doesn't_ have such an undine, and his tribe  
is prone to being harassed by fire elementals, he is remiss. Any  
Doraddi shaman living near the Nargan would always have an undine  
available in case Promalti show up. 


Kevin Rose:
>All mutinies need a leader, but they are somtimes low ranking. 

	Yes, this is of course true. But it still helps to have all  
the officers be unified. For that matter, a potential rebellion among  
Esrolian men might well be led by women who hoped to enhance their  
personal status by doing so, in the same way that the Jacquerie  
peasant uprising in medieval France was led by nobles; some of whom  
were essentially "captives" and others that were just ambitious. 


>Look at the Russian army as an example of an army where the troops  
>are treated like dirt.  Large scale rebelions haven't happened.
	Actually, they have. Think of the Potemkin, and the Russian  
naval mutiny in the 1920s. And their mutinous refusal to fight in  
1917. Some of these were under the Czar, but they were even _more_  
oppressed then, if anything. 


>But the junior leaders (the ones who are at the sharp end) had
>better be really big strong girls
	I think they just have to be smarter or have control over the  
magic. Mutineers aren't often suppressed by the officers being  
physically stronger than their men. And the women leaders are likely  
to be better-educated, smarter (presumably the real smart men don't  
go into the army, since there's no hope of advancement), and probably  
with a Babeester Gor "minder" to back her up. 


>And you are succeding at the plan to be the primary cause of lost 

>productivity.
	*wince* Sorry.





---------------------

From: yfcw29@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk
Subject: Sprirts & Shamans
Message-ID: <9410281457.aa22403@uk.ac.ed.castle>
Date: 28 Oct 94 14:57:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6767


RE : Subject header. Good name for a game eh?

ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham) says:

>A spirit needs its own pair of eyes to be able to perceive the world.

As a shaman, I would keep a copy of the 'visibility' spell handy
at all times. Very usefull to cast either on yourself while
discorporate, or on your fetch.

>* What exactly a fetch is I'll leave for another message:

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. I would say it is an
awakened part of the shaman. Although I believe there is a case
for saying that about allied spirits and familiars too.

jake@spy.org (Jake Meredith) says:

>   My main problem with Control  is that it is HORRIBLY weak 
>compared to other magic systems mastery spells.  This is because it can 
>only be used by a discorporate shaman (assuming that the spirit does not 
>initaite combat w/the shaman).

Or by the shaman's fetch, with visibility cast on it. See my note above.
Visibility is a vital part of a shaman's toolkit.
>..............the seventh 7M being the mortal who actually gave birth to 
>the Red Moon (the godess not the rock =)) and was also deified.

You mean Teelo Norri? I am not sure about her being deified, the 'cult'
has no magic or worship rituals. I think she sacrificed her existance
so that the Red Goddess could be incarnated into her flesh. Something
like that. I agree generaly though.

sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) says:

>>Of course, most religions are realy ancestor worship.
>        This seems a peculiar non-sequitur.

Well... I did say most, not all. I have been having some peculiar
thoughts recently. I have been thinking about deities in their
role as parent figures, super-adults.

Perhaps reading Joseph Campble's 'Hero With a Thousand Faces',
concurently with the Roberts Shea and Anton-Wilson's 'Illuminatus
trilogy', is a mistake.

Simon Hibbs
yfcw29@castle.ed.ac.uk

---------------------

From: pheasant@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nick Eden)
Subject: Humakt the Comic
Message-ID: 
Date: 28 Oct 94 18:18:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6768

In-Reply-To: <9410270816.AA20863@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM>
If there are any people out there sympathetic towards comics, give Dark 
Horse's Grendel Tales a look, especially it's latest storyline - Devils 
and Deaths. VERY Humakti.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
> I have been playing and running RQ II since university,  but with the
> Plethora of new modules for RQ III I am tempted to slowly introduce it
> to my players.
> 
> My first step is to introduce Sorcerers,  but ONLY as NPC's...it will be
> nice to use opponents that have powers that my players really know
> nothing about (I have not let them read anything on RQ III).
> 
> However,  this poses some rules issues....has anyone else used 
> Sorcerers in RQ II...if so some advice would be appreciated.
> 
> Geoff Revill

Who needs rules? Sorcerers are evil scum who break all the rules that 
your players think they understand. When I was running my PenDragon Pass 
game I had to think about Sorcerers, and came to the conclusion that 
Sorcerers would use magic that confused the living daylights out of all 
the PCs. It didn't happen often. but when a Sorcerer turned up they were 
scared out of their wits.


---------------------

From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: stuff
Message-ID: <9410282116.AA13536@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 28 Oct 94 07:16:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6769

Colin Watson:
>I'm willing to go along with the idea that a Ghost is just a Magic  
>Spirit with attitude
	They differ in the crucial point that a Magic Spirit cannot  
initiate spirit combat.
>I consider Intellect spirits to be the ghosts of animals; and Power  
>spirits to be the ghosts of plants (which lack INT)
	But you can use the INT but not the MPs of an intellect  
spirit, and you can use the MPs of a power spirit. Yet you can't use  
either in a Magic spirit (it has to cast the spells itself -- you  
don't get access to its' INT or MPs directly).
	This was done because Greg felt that the traditional Allied  
spirit, who let you use its INT and its MPs, and could cast spells,  
was very powerful, and should be considered (one of) the most useful  
spirits available. Note that none of the garden-variety spirits left  
in RQ III can do all those cool things.

Dave Dunham:
>A spirit needs its own pair of eyes to be able to perceive the  
>world.
	This is true, but there are ways around it. A Magic Spirit  
bound into a torc, for instance, can be told to cast Second Sight --  
_then_ it can see other people to cast spells at them.

Jake Meredith:
>My main problem with Control  is that it is HORRIBLY weak
>compared to other magic systems mastery spells.
	Yes, but it is FLEXIBLE. It mirrors the whole difference  
between spirit magic and divine. Your example has a fire elemental  
ravaging the tribe, and the shaman taking an hour to use Control  
species to get it. If the fire elemental was ravaging an Orlanthi  
village, the priests wouldh't be able to control it at all! Of  
course, if it was an air or earth elemental, the Orlanthi would have  
things under control in a matter of minutes. The spiritist can  
control _anything_, but nothing is easy. The priest has a much more  
restricted range of possibilities, but he's powerful within that  
range.
	Probably your shaman should deal with the fire elemental by  
unleashing the undine he's got bound in his fetch for just such a  
contingency. And if he _doesn't_ have such an undine, and his tribe  
is prone to being harassed by fire elementals, he is remiss. Any  
Doraddi shaman living near the Nargan would always have an undine  
available in case Promalti show up.

Kevin Rose:
>All mutinies need a leader, but they are somtimes low ranking.
	Yes, this is of course true. But it still helps to have all  
the officers be unified. For that matter, a potential rebellion among  
Esrolian men might well be led by women who hoped to enhance their  
personal status by doing so, in the same way that the Jacquerie  
peasant uprising in medieval France was led by nobles; some of whom  
were essentially "captives" and others that were just ambitious.

>Look at the Russian army as an example of an army where the troops  
>are treated like dirt.  Large scale rebelions haven't happened.
	Actually, they have. Think of the Potemkin, and the Russian  
naval mutiny in the 1920s. And their mutinous refusal to fight in  
1917. Some of these were under the Czar, but they were even _more_  
oppressed then, if anything.

>But the junior leaders (the ones who are at the sharp end) had
>better be really big strong girls
	I think they just have to be smarter or have control over the  
magic. Mutineers aren't often suppressed by the officers being  
physically stronger than their men. And the women leaders are likely  
to be better-educated, smarter (presumably the real smart men don't  
go into the army, since there's no hope of advancement), and probably  
with a Babeester Gor "minder" to back her up.

>And you are succeding at the plan to be the primary cause of lost
>productivity.
	*wince* Sorry.

---------------------

From: mmorrison@VNET.IBM.COM (Michael C. Morrison 8-543-4706)
Subject: Gaming stores in NYC
Message-ID: <1994Oct28.141937.83389@vnet.ibm.com>
Date: 28 Oct 94 21:19:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6770

I will be in the Manhattan area (Yonkers actually) for Christmas, and
I'd like to know if anyone who lives in the area knows of good gaming
stores.  I'd especially be interested in stores with used/old stuff.

I wouldn't mind meeting a few folks too, but am certain I won't have
time actually to game ... this is a family trip, with much time
already planned!

Thanks,

Michael
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael C. Morrison    IMS Information Development  Tieline  8-543-4706
Santa Teresa Lab, San Jose, California    (SWS)     Phone (408)463-4706
Bitnet ID:             MCM at VNET                  Fax   (408)463-4101
Internet ID:           MMORRISON@VNET.IBM.COM  or  USIB47H4@IBMMAIL.COM
IBM Mail Exchange ID:  USIB47H4 at IBMMAIL  or  USIB4MCM at IBMMAIL
X.400 Address:         G=mcmgm; S=morrison; P=ibmmail; A=ibmx400; C=us
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------

From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: Sprirts & Shamans
Message-ID: <9410282146.AA01366@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 28 Oct 94 21:46:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6771

Simon Hibbs :
>Well... I did say most, not all. I have been having some peculiar
>thoughts recently. I have been thinking about deities in their
>role as parent figures, super-adults.

There's a word for that: role-models.

>Perhaps reading Joseph Campble's 'Hero With a Thousand Faces',
>concurently with the Roberts Shea and Anton-Wilson's 'Illuminatus
>trilogy', is a mistake.

Try to follow up on that with Skynner and Cleese, `Families and
how to Survive them.'

-- 
Henk	|	Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[]	|	RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM

---------------------

From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <9410282223.AA01481@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 29 Oct 94 00:23:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6772

seskf2n3@ibmmail.com:
>   
>      Subject:
>      REG: RUNEQUEST DAILY WED 26 OCT????
>   
>      Hello,
>   
>      Just wonder if there were a Daily on Wednesday?
>      If it were could you please send it to me since I
>      didn't get any.
>   
>      Best Regards
>   
>      Per Stromberg

There wasn't.  System trouble.

---------------------

From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Eat Enemy; Priestly requirements
Message-ID: <199410290043.AA00947@radiomail.net>
Date: 29 Oct 94 00:43:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6773

Lewis Jardine reminded me of my spell Eat Enemy (from my non-Gloranthan
campaign).

Eat Enemy, 3 points
This spell can be used when eating part of a vanquished enemy. The brain
(INT) or heart (POW or STR) can be eaten. The spell is resisted by the
characteristic the user is trying to gain, thus if he is eating the brain
he must roll his POW vs the victim's INT. If successful, he has gained that
much temporary INT, POW, or STR.
        Temporary INT may be used to memorize spirit magic. It is lost when
the spell is cast.
        Temporary POW is a store of magic poitns which may aren't regained
once used.
        Temporary STR can be used to add damage to a weapon blow. One point
may be used per blow (before success is rolled for), and will do one extra
damage point.
        All temporary characteristics fade away at one point per day. An
individual's temporary characteristic cannot exceed his permanent
characteristic.
        Only one characteristic can be gained from a particular enemy.

This is a spirit magic spell, probably a ritual. I haven't run the culture
that has this spell in 10 years, so I'd probably handle the spell somewhat
differently today.

Nick Brooke asked
>An aside: anyone else think it's odd that while Rune Priests have to spend 
>90% of their time and give 90% of their income to the cult, but there's no 
>requirement to cast 90% of their Rune Magic for it, or indeed (in a non- 
>RunePower game) to sacrifice 90% of their POW for useful rune spells like 
>Worship and Sanctify and Divination and Cloud Call and the like...

Nobody in my campaign can become a Priest or Acolyte without at least
having Worship, Sanctify, and probably Spellteaching. (Which, BTW, I
consider an argument against  RunePower...)


---------------------

From: scotty@olivia.cedar-rapids.ia.us (Scott Haney)
Subject: Organs, Elements, and Stats
Message-ID: <1fa5031e.7a12a-scotty@olivia.cedar-rapids.ia.us>
Date: 28 Oct 94 23:25:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6774

I never really got around to associating stats with elements, but
I did associate some organs with elements, based loosely on
Chinese cosmology.  (I taught xing yi for some years...we have
a form/kata based on them.)


Darkness	Stomach, Spleen
Water		Kidneys, Bladder
Air		Lungs, Large Intestine
Fire		Heart, Small Intestine, Circulation, Triple Heater*
Earth		Liver, Gall Bladder


The Chinese, ironically, knew what the brain was for, but it
is largely absent from their traditional medical teachings!
Medicine was focussed chiefly on the twelve organs above.

(The 'triple heater' refers to the body's temperature maintenance
mechanisms...treated by the Chinese as a single organ.)


Thought I'd share it with you.

Scotty

---------------------

From: scotty@olivia.cedar-rapids.ia.us (Scott Haney)
Subject: Shamans and held spirits
Message-ID: <1fa506a8.c351-scotty@olivia.cedar-rapids.ia.us>
Date: 28 Oct 94 23:40:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6775

Help me out here.

I played RQII for a very long time and had a lot of fun with
shamans.  I just last night re-read the RQ *III* rules on
shamans and held spirits (I haven't run a RQIII game yet), and
I'm confused.  "POW" and "MP" are used in a manner that makes
me wonder:

	To hold a spirit, does a RQIII fetch need to 
	maintain a sufficient number of MAGIC POINTS
	or PERMANENT POW to hold all of the spirits?


Thanks.

Scotty

---------------------

From: nam@grendal.rain.com (Nicholas Marcelja)
Subject: Game mechanics RQ2 to RQ3
Message-ID: <9410290535.AA00hq3@grendal.rain.com>
Date: 29 Oct 94 05:35:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6776

Greetings,
	here is my FIRST question...
	
	In the old RQ2 rules the Lhankor Myh initiates or something
	like them, can brew potions. Healing, Farsee... whatever 
	spirit magic. 
	
	How does this work in RQ3 ? is this a skill = Brew Potion ?
	
	Thanks 
	



Nicholas Marcelja 
pacifier.rain.com!grendal!nam     
nam@grendal.rain.com               Genie : N.Marcelja
marcelja@sharpwa.com          Compuserve : 76056,753

---------------------