Bell Digest v941101p1

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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 01 Nov 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.

X-RQ-ID: index

6796: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
 - Pamaltelan baddies
6797: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
 - Howling errors at the moon.
6798: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke)
 - Giants, Vampires
6799: niwe = (Nils Weinander)
 - Weird vampires
6800: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
 - Sandystuff
6801: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke)
 - Polygamy
6802: PMichaels =
 - new magic crystal
6803: dave_cordes = (Dave Cordes)
 - Limited Visability
 - Sorcerous familiars
 - Re: WF #2
 - Lewis on Bodyparts (esp Triple Heater)
6807: yfcw29 =
 - Big weekend catchup
6808: DevinC =
 - Re:Polygamy
6809: DevinC =
 - Re: Of Dorastor and Cradles
6810: erisie = (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
 - Re: Mike's Esrolia notes
6811: sandyp = (Sandy Petersen)
 - Re: ???
6812: ddunham = (David Dunham)
 - Teaching spirits sorcery
6813: M.Hitchens = (Michael Hitchens)
 - Population of Sartar


From: (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Pamaltelan baddies
Message-ID: <>
Date: 31 Oct 94 08:36:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6796

David Cake:
>         I meant external not in the sense of without the Pamalt religion,
> but evil that infiltrates rather than confronts. Sikkanos is a sort of
> loyal pantheon member - but they live apart and raid. [...]
>         What I want is cults that take some of the part that religions like
> Krarsht or Seseine, or even Nysalor, plays in Genertelan society [...]

I gotcha.  (Ob. pedantry: Seseine is mainly a Pamaltelan (coastal/urban?)
deity.)  I suspect there aren't really any such _cults_ as such among the
Doraddi, though malevolent individuals could doubtless covertly worship
assorted bad gods and spirits, including acultural ones.

> Crocodiles still eat people, so they
> would never be seen as completely good. THey are also probably warriors,
> which is to the DOraddi often implies a degree of irresponsibility and
> unpredicatability.

More of a Hunter, though granted a highly unpredictable (and lazy!) one.

Sandy wonders surreally:
> [...] who wants to get a speeding ticket from a Babeester Gor?

Wotta concept.  "Oi!  You!  Sterling Mastakos!  Oot ra chariot, sunshine.
Legs apart, loincloth off."

> Alex F.
> >To posit the obvious stupid Question: are there any "Agimori" ogres?
> 	Yes. I don't know if ogres were originally a Genertelan  
> import or not [...]

Elder Races seems to think they're a Wareran thang, hence my equivocation.
Though it'd be Kewl to have Pamaltelan ogres work at least somewhat
differently from the "regular" variety.

> >I'd imagine that a tribe living near such a waterhole would most  
> >likely have a largely positive view of the crocodiles

> 	Hrm? Because they _like_ being eaten alive, every so often?]

Hey, I said "positive", not "ecstatic". ;-)  I mean they recognise the
croc's role in the ecomythosystem, admire the way she chews the legs off
anything stupid enough to get near her, and tell suitable cautionary tales.

Anyway, my basic point, regardless of the shakeyness of my example, was
that where a given animal or spirit lies on the good/bad scale is likely
to depend on local custom and belief, which is a handy source of Bad Guys,
if you're in the right (wrong?) place.  There's bound to be the occassional
Crododile Shaman, and many other people will think of him as Deeply Strange,
or even Evil.

> Technically, the oasis gets to choose its guardian, but in  
> practice the tribes have a lot to say about it.

"Of course it want to have us as its guardian, it has our troops all over

> HONDORI MAL: a female deity generally agreed by the Six Leggers and God
> Learners to be the local equivalent of Babeester Gor. The cult's  main job
> is to guard the oases  in times of trouble, since the old men and women
> who dwell there can't do it for themselves. Unlike Babeester Gor, both men
> and women can join this cult [...]

Any further thoughts as to how this ties in with the (yellow) elven
"Babs Gor"?  That males can be initiates (too) would be an obvious link-in
to this form of the cult, though I'm not sure who might have imported it
from whom.

Illuminating myths and time-share-soul idea, Sandy, mercy buckets.  And
the totemism factlet.



From: (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Howling errors at the moon.
Message-ID: <>
Date: 31 Oct 94 08:59:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6797

I wax erroneously:
> >Recall that the terran moon subtends 0.5^o, and the moon tends 
> >to appear smaller nearer the horizon, for purely visual reasons.
>            ^^^^^^^

Martin C. reality-checks:
> You meant "larger," of course.  We knew that.

Oops, d'oh.  Serves me right for trying to combine cognitive psychology and
trigonometry into the same post.

> On the map in Genertela: Crucible of the Hero Wars, The Crater is
> [...] about 43 km. in diameter.  Call it 40.  If The
> Moon is the same width as the gap it left behind when it rose out
> of the earth, then it is also 40 km. wide.

That's where I guesstimated 30km from.  I made some ad hoc allowance
for the area disturbed being larger than the body formed.  Probably
should be yet smaller, unless the hole is mind-bogglingly deep.  Perhaps
not too big an "unless".

> Could we trouble you to do the math again, Alex?

Just multiply the "subtended" numbers by an appropriate kludge-constant,
if you feel the need, should be close enough.  To wit, bung on a third
if you want a perfect fit into a 40km deep Crater.  Or divide 'em by a
third, if you want a 10km moon, a shallow Crater, and moon of the size
Greg indicates in the empire (and smaller elsewhere).  (Assuming Yelm
subtends about 0.5^o, that is: is that right, Nick?)

>      Having an imaginary foe (or a highly-distorted view of a
> real group) is a good way to maintain cohesion, as the Republican
> party of the U.S. shows.  

I've been hallucinating the U.S. Republicans all these years?  Dang.

> Alex also writes about "Illimination."

Yes.  I had a good reason, you're not cleared for it, however.

> [Anybody else seen "Repo Man"?]


Nick quibbles with my One Small Step:
> > In the absence of any concrete proposals for the height and size of the
> > moon, here's mine: the moon is about 30km in diameter, and 1000km high.

> Hang on: you can jump from the highest mountain in the world onto the Red 
> Moon.

You could use this factoid either way, of course, in the distinction
between the physical and the mythic.  If an Mythic Kilometre is anything
like a Country Mile, though, I'm sure these (or any) figures could be
squared.  Or turned into any simple geometric shape desired, frankly.

> I'd have thought that fixed the moon's "mythic/mystical" height at 
> about twelve and a half miles, marking the dividing line between Middle Air 
> and Upper Air;

Or should that be about 10,000km, based on the "mythic" map in Codex #2?
And if you have a 300km diameter at this height, you'll get a nigh-on
constant-sized moon over all of Genertela (handy, if Greg thinks this is the
case), and only about 1/3 degree smaller in Pamaltela.

> The thing is, the Sky Dome's height works on two scales, "real" and 
> "magical", just like other dimensions of the world. They're bound to 
> conflict at times.

Of course.  But the moon must have a measurable _appearance_, though not
necessarily one that makes sense in terms of physics.  (Witness the whole
section on the sky in Elder Secrets...)

> Chaosium Figures:
> 	Yelm		22 mm
> 	Red Moon	19 mm

Lemme hear y'all say "permanent annular eclipse in north Peloria".

> The circles in the diagram are meant to be relative, I am sure.

Any indication as to the absolute apparent size?  That is, compared to
the whole sky dome, or to RW celestial bodies?

> I'm assuming the lengths of days and nights are the same everywhere in 
> Glorantha: my working assumption is an 8-hour shortest day and a 16-hour 
> longest day, with those in between pro-rating as appropriate.

When you say "pro-rating", recall that day length changes non-linearly on
earth, sinesoidally and changing most slowly at the solstices (whence the



From: (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Giants, Vampires
Message-ID: <941031091347_100270.337_BHL38-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 31 Oct 94 09:13:48 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6798

Elias asked:

> Does anybody know why giants send (or sent, anyway) their babies down
> the river in cradles? It doesn't seem like a very good policy - I'd
> expect most of the cradles to go more or less straight down Magasta's
> Pool. (Is that why there aren't more giants in Genertela? ;))

I believe that the Giant Babies are indeed being sent to the Underworld by way
of Magasta's Pool, as you supposed. They grow up and *learn* stuff down there.
Just what it is that they learn, I do not know, nor how (or if) they ever come
back. Let us hope not.

> What kind of wonderful things do these apparently technically and
> magically unsophisticated people put in these cradles that made it
> worthwhile to set up two separate outposts just to capture them? 
> Where do they get them from? Is there a powerful and advanced giant
> civilization somewhere that we have never heard about?

I don't know about a civilization, but the Cradles are full of wonderful magical
items, some almost mundane (like a Giant-sized horn of plenty), others downright
weird. The Giants who send the Cradles are *not* the brutish "normal" giants you
meet in RQ; but nobody knows what they are. Think of Too-Big-To-Be-Seen and his
friends. These are the Really Old Giants, the ones who beat up Dragons in the
primordial past; not just 15-metre INT 2D6 types with big damage bonuses.

Matt asked:

> I'm using the "Dorastor Land of Doom" supplement and was wondering if
> there is any more information published or on the net about the Tower
> of Lead, and Dorastor artifacts.

The Tower of Lead was mentioned in Cults of Terror as a vampire lair in modern
RQing times (during Hahlgrim's War). An extremely ancient vampire was 'living'
there then. The relevant passages should be reprinted in "Lords of Terror", due
out some time soonish from the ever-punctual Avalon Hill Games Company. But
frankly, there's not that much known or in print about it: you should feel free
to make up your own version, as long as it's Really Scary.



From: (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Weird vampires
Message-ID: <>
Date: 31 Oct 94 13:05:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6799

T.J. Minas back in the daily of October 24:

>      Incidentally, Nils W, you resurrected a Vampire killed by
>a Humakti and he was no longer a Vampire?????!! Hmmmm! Remember,
>the vampire has no POW left, so if you resurrect him, he dies

Eh, yes we resurrected him. The entire story is just too long and weird,
but this particular vampire was not from GLorantha. The GM ruled that
since he was an involuntary vampire, his soul (POW) wasn't gone, just

All in all, this is definitely unorthodox, non-canonical etc. This campaign
is really beginning to flip out.

/Nils W


From: (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Sandystuff
Message-ID: <>
Date: 31 Oct 94 11:47:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6800

Sandy respondeth to myself:
> >I feel that the purported advantage of the vessel system(s), of
> >explaining sorcery in similar terms to divine magic and shamanism
> 	I make no claims of this nature for my own version of the  
> vessel, which, of course, does NOT involve sacrificing any POW to  
> gain your vesse.

Just to stir things up yet more, let me say that I (provisionally)
believe that Westerners do sacrifice POW to (obviously) enchantments
and the like, very possibly with effects much as described by assorted
vessel systems, but they don't _regard_ it as involving their souls in
any significany way.  Similarly, I think orthodox Westerners would say
that if you died from Soul Waste, or thew like, you'd still go to Solace.
Your "spirit" is dead, but that was just a tissue of pagan delusions
anyway, right?

I'm losing track here: did you already post your system here, Sandy?
(Or have posted by one of your nilmergs?)

and to de Hall:
> >You mean they play Ice Hockey in Bliss in Ignorance? }B-)
> 	Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of British  
> football hooligans.

Tsk, Sandy, you've misspelt "English".

> Except the trolls watch the spectators, of course, not the soccer players. 

Just like the Good Old British Bobby, these days.



From: (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Polygamy
Message-ID: <941031121005_100270.337_BHL46-2@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 31 Oct 94 12:10:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6801


> Perhaps a couple of you can help identify a Gloranthan cultural note.

Murharzarm, first Emperor of Dara Happa, had to pass the test of the Judgement
Between Wives. A man was troubled by quarreling between his wives. Murharzarm
ruled that henceforth a man must have only one wife, and that the punishment for
polygamy was to have multiple wives. Source: Glorious ReAscent of Yelm, p.14.

The Dara Happans don't really disapprove of polygamy, as they are quite prepared
to condone it. One belief is that "the Pure" should only take a single wife, but
as most of us aren't pure (by Solar standards), it's OK for us.

In my view, DH marriages are something like the Romans': middle-aged or elderly
men marry their friends' adolescent daughters. Their sons have to bottle it all
up until they reach marrying age, or find outlets elsewhere (Pelorian Earth
temples; sacred Ulerian prostitutes; the Yelmic Vice...).


> Have there been any issues of RQ Adventures after issue #3? Can anyone
> tell me sub info?

I'd like to know, too. Is anyone distributing RQA #4 in the UK yet?

David D:

> And you said you didn't want bookkeeping?

I said that >IF< I were using an economic system (etc.)... Besides, with
RunePower and seasonal regaining of Rune Magic, all you need to do is add up
"unspent" points each Holy Day and assume these are being cast for the general
welfare of the people.



Subject: new magic crystal
Message-ID: <>
Date: 31 Oct 94 07:04:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6802

Hi all!

David Dunham and Simon Hibbs' postings about discorporate spirits and ways
they can(not) interact with the mundane plane reminded me of something I came
up with a while back.  A magic crystal (3d6+6 POW) called a Spirit Eye or
Second Body.  This living magic crystal allows for a person to bind a
friendly ghost or spirit into it with a successful Binding Enchantment,
providing the spirit overcomes the crystal's POW.  The spirit can then
interact directly with the corporeal world from the living crystal without
needing to be corporate, visible, or Mindlinked to a corporate being.  Once
bound, the spirit can only be removed by the crystal being broken or by a
successful Sever Spirit being cast at the crystal.  Either of these will
release the spirit back onto the spirit plane.

I used this crystal in the Crown of Rone.



From: (Dave Cordes)
Subject: Limited Visability
Message-ID: <9410311804.AA15878@Sun.COM>
Date: 31 Oct 94 02:42:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6803

CL QM-SMTP gw                 Limited Visability
Simon Hibbs said
>As a shaman, I would keep a copy of the 'visibility' spell handy
>at all times. Very usefull to cast either on yourself while
>discorporate, or on your fetch.
>Visibility is a vital part of a shaman's toolkit.

David Dunham :
>Actually, I'd say you think it's just another spirit, one you can cast
>Visibility on.

My Gm and I had a long discussion of the usefullness of the Visability Spell.
 From reading the spell description we originally thought that this spell
could be used as a conduit to get spirits from the spirit plane to the
mundane plane.  Then we noticed that the spell was described as:
2 points
Self, Temporal, Passive ....(Magic Book page 22)

We interpreted the "Self" to mean that a caster could only cast the spell
upon himself, and not on anyone else.  This limitation means that a shaman
could only use the spell to make himself appear on the mundane plane while he
was discorporate. 

Or the spell could be cast by a shaman's fetch while the shaman was on the
mundane plane.  Then both the shaman and his fetch would be visable on the
mundane plane at the same time.  This will make it easier for a shaman to get
spirits that his fetch is holding into a binding.  Without Visability we have
to discorporate, find and defeat a spirit on the spirit plane.  Then store
the spirit in the fetch,  return to the mundane plane, prepare a binding and
then either summon the spirit to the mundane plane, defeat it and then store
it in the binding.  Or discorporate again and have the fetch command the
spirit and store it in the binding, while he is on the mundane plane. 
Knowing the Visability spell might save alot plane hopping.  

Unfortunately the knowledge of this "vital part of a shaman's toolkit" was
neglected from my shaman's education.  So first he has to learn about the
spell,  then he can learn the spell.  After that we'll find out if it really
is useful or not.

David  - (that's the beauty of the David Rune.  It's pipelined with multiple
processors.  So there can more than one of us using it at a time).


Subject: Sorcerous familiars
Date: 31 Oct 94 07:06:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6804

Ok, if a sorceror wants to create a familiar by binding, lets say, a magic 
spirit into a stone statue, what all needs to be considered??

For ease, lets say that the spirit is that of some Ralian, and it is already 
familiar with sorcery.  Once the construct is imbued with the spirit, and 
points of STR, CON, and DEX are given to it with the appropriate creation 
ritual, Can it move?  Can it see?  Is anything else needed for it to become a 
useful familiar?


Dave Cowling


Subject: Re: WF #2
Message-ID: <9410311519.AA0443@NDROBINS.FIN.GOV.BC.CA>
Date: 31 Oct 94 18:14:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6805

In X-RQ-ID: 6777 Nick Brooke says:

>White albino cannibals: tee hee! Actually, we know from WF #2 p.27 ...
>Furthest sewers are a great place to set Dungeon adventures! 

WF #2?  Sheesh?  I thought that those had all been destroyed in the great
flood.  :-)  Not all of us have access to such wonderous relics of a bygone
era.  People were paying $30+ for a copy of WF #12 at RQ Con.



Neil Robinson             NDROBINS@NDROBINS.FIN.GOV.BC.CA


Subject: Lewis on Bodyparts (esp Triple Heater)
Message-ID: <9410311855.AA27440@Sun.COM>
Date: 31 Oct 94 16:47:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6806

WRT the recent posting on Elemental relationships to Bodyparts.  

The Triple Heater was mentioned and briefly explained as being the body's 
temperature control mechanism.  

While I am no expert I thought that I might add a bit more light on the matter 
to help anyone who is interested on taking the matter further.  

The triple heater consists of the upper, middle and lower *cauldrons*.  
These cauldrons are where Chi is generated.  Chi is closely related to blood 
and heat, it is also used in traditional chinese martial arts as a form 
of strength.  For RQers it could be thought of like the Ki of RQ Land of the 

Chi can be trained and stimulated (for example Tai Chi) which should result 
in improved blood supply, (internal) fitness and therefore health.  A simple 
exercise to do this is known as Waving Hands Like Clouds.  This consists of:

1) Standing still
2) Deep Breathing to the stomach or Lower Cauldron (Dan Tien) to stimulate 
the Chi.  
3) Slowly and gently moving the hands in a rhythmic repetative movement 
(the actual movement varies between styles).  

This exercise rapidly results in the hands becoming very warm.  
An example of the Triple Heater in action.  

The middle and upper cauldrons can be stimulated in similar manners but these 
are much harder to accomplish.  The key elements are relaxation and breathing.  
Well, I know the above did not attempt to define in any way, but I hope it 
has clarified things a bit.



Subject: Re:Polygamy
Message-ID: <>
Date: 31 Oct 94 09:41:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6808

Devin here:

Rob asks:

" In
Alarums and Excursions #231, Chris Murray commented that he'd noticed a
Gloranthan society that disapproved of polygamy:  the penalty for polgamy was
having multiple wives.  

I expect that's an old, old joke, but I hadn't heard it before.  Chris
doesn't remember which culture carried the joke; can anybody place it?"

It was the Darra Happan society and the quote is from the Glorious ReAscent
of Yelm.


"Does anybody here remember Vera Lynn?"