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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 02 Nov 1994, part 2
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From: M.Hitchens@st.nepean.uws.edu.au (Michael Hitchens)
Subject: The Nature of Gods, Myths and Heroquests
Message-ID:
Date: 3 Nov 94 04:53:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6822
Hi to all
I know there was resentment at the bandwidth taken up recently by the
Elmal/Yelmalio debate but.....
I have been an RQer since I started roleplaying (my first game, in 1982 was
Gloranthan RuneQuest), but I have not run a campaign since 1989. I hope to
start one up soon but things have in changed in the last five years. I have a
lot of questions about the nature of Glorantha and Elmal/Yelmalio seems like
a very good vehicle for articulating many of them. So I ask people to bear
with me. Glorantha is (to the best of my knowledge) supposed to be about the
investigation of the relationship between people and myth. If we do not
understand the nature of God and Myth in Glorantha, how can we hope to
understand Glorantha?
First, my understanding of the "facts", such as they are,
Yelmalio was not worshipped amongst humans (or not much anyway) before
1560. He was worshipped amongst the elves. In fact, he may well be their
original sun god (whatever *that* means). Elmal was worshipped as a sungod
by certain Theyalan tribes.
In 1560 Monrogh comes back from a heroquest and says (in a power-gaming sense)
"Hey, let's worship this guy, he's got this neat Sunspear spell".
Now some questions:
(These are serious questions. I really want answers. I am trying to
understand Glorantha).
Some people seem to be of the opinion that Elmal and Yelmalio are the same
entity, some say they are not. Could anyone who believes they are not tell me
if worshippers who switched from Elmal to Yelmalio were visited by Elmal's
spirits of retribution? If they were not, why not?
Some people try to say the question can not be answered. To those I ask, why
can not a Yelmalio Priest use divination to find out if the Elmal worshippers
are worshipping the same god? Remember that the important part of divination
is that the god *only knows what its worshippers know*. So such a divination
should work, either by a "yes", because they worship me (Yelmalio) or a "no",
because I (Yelmalio) know nothing about them so they can not worship me.
Some people say the question should not be asked. To them I ask again, if we
do not understand the gods, how can we understand Glorantha?
Yelmalio as son of Yelm:
Conservative Dara Happans seem to be trying to deny that Yelmalio is the son of
Yelm. Does the fact that Yelmalio gets a sunspear from Yelm (as per associate
cults in his description in Sun County) indicate that they have little chance
of proving their point?
Now, a little more radical interpretation of this:
The entity Yelm, who lives on the god plane is giving Yelmalio a spell. Yelm
must therefore be acknowledging some relationship with Yelmalio. Or is Yelm
just doing so in the part of the godplane relevant to the Yelmalio cultists?
And if so, what the hell does that last sentence mean? If two Dara Happan
Rune Priests of Yelm, one who believes Yelmalio is not the son of Yelm and
one who does, both cast Divination asking Yelm "Is Yelmalio your son?" will
they get the same answer (yes?) or will they be answered according to their
own beliefs?
If the later, just what are the gods exactly? Nonexistent? Schizophrenic?
Do they exist as identifiable entities at all? Are they completely at the
mercy of their worshippers?
What about a priest who is unsure and has asked his god for guidance?
If on the other hand the conservatives "prove" that Yelmalio is not the son
of Yelm, would that mean that Sunspear would no longer be available to
Yelmalio cultists? Anywhere?
A little more on the nature of gods:
Did Monrogh really make a god (as per the heading in KoS)? If Yelmalio was the
name of the Elf Sun god (from before the dawning) then the entity must already
have existed on the God Plane. Monrogh may have altered the god significantly
by heroquesting (if indeed Elmal and Yelmalio were/are separate entities), but
it does not appear to me that he actually *made* Yelmalio. Even Nysalor and
the Red Goddess weren't made, just re-born. So is it actually possible
to "make" a god, or are all such attempts doomed to failure, such as Zistor?
Just WHAT are the gods??
OK, enough on Elmal/Yelmalio:
People were discussing the attitude of a Storm Bull community in Ralios to the
Block. Would they even know of its existence?, someone asked. What would be
their central myths? Would they not simply be able to ask Urox (again by
divination), "What was your greatest act in the war against chaos?" (what did
you do in the war daddy? :-) ). A few divinations later, having discovered
about the Block and that it is a long way away, the Khan might ask, "what did
you do around here?". "I smashed a chaos demon on that hill over there". Off
rushes the Khan to set up a shrine on that hill, he might make a pilgrimage to
Block sometime, in a few years, maybe. BUT all Storm Bulls should know about
the Block, even they do not consider it that important to them and their
worship of the god.
Opinions?
Just how useful is divination?
Myths and Heroquests:
Mythical truth is represented by the state of the godplane (YES/NO)
Glorantha's myths are continually being acted out on the Godplane. (YES/NO)
These myths can be altered (via heroquesting) so what was the state of the
GodPlane yesterday may not be true today. (YES/NO)
(I know time has no meaning in the Godplane, but it does in the mundane world).
For example, even if, for arguments sake, Elmal and Yelmalio were originally
different entities, could sufficient successful heroquesting could "prove"
that they were the same? (YES/NO)
And then they *are* the same entity (for divinations, etc), regardless of what
they were before? (YES/NO)
Another example: everyone knows that Magasta led the seas into jumping into
the hole formed when the Spike exploded. I seem to remember reading somewhere
that Humakt (I always pronounce the "a" by the way - I think Humkt sounds
silly) also fought the monster in the hole. Could I (in theory, if I was a
great heroquester) prove that Humakt commanded and lead the fight of the water
spirits. Magasta may have been the chief of the water spirits, but Humakt was
the leader, Magasta just his lieutenant. (YES/NO)
Could I make this mythological truth for everyone, not just Humakti? (YES/NO)
If I did that, would it then have always been that way? (ie would there be any
perception that the previous myths were "wrong" when they were written but
now "we" have the correct ones.) (YES/NO)
Can the myths (ie the state of the godplane) be altered other than by
heroquesting? (YES/NO)
Eg, if enough normal people believe, does it change? (it being the
mythical "truth" as represented by the god plane). (YES/NO)
As I understand it, there seem to be two vitally different forms of
heroquesting, one where the participant simply re-enacts the actions of the
god, thereby reinforcing the current state. The other form is a conscious
attempt to *change* the state of the godplane.
The second form is much harder.
Am I correct on these two points?
A final point
Does anyone agree with me that the God Learners seem to be winning? The
myths of all cultures seem to be evolving towards each other into the
mono-myth. Elmal never had much connection with Yelm. Now he's been just
about been replaced by Yelmalio, who even some Dara Happans consider the son
of Yelm (heroquesting will probably "reveal" the truth of that). At the
Dawning, the Orlanthi did not identify their "Emperor" with the Sun God of
Peloria, sometime later they did. The list of other examples is almost
endless.
I know some people will not appreciate this, but I feel a desperate need to
know. I think these questions are vital to understanding Glorantha.
Many thanks
Michael
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Michael Hitchens
Lecturer, Dept. of Computing
University of Western Sydney Nepean
PO BOX 10 Kingswood NSW 2747
Australia
michael@st.nepean.uws.edu.au
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All that we do or seem
Is but a dream within a dream
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