From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 11 Nov 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. X-RQ-ID: index 6877: grendel = (John Castellucci) - RQAdventures Fanzine Issue 4 6878: David.Burtin = (David Burtin) - Re: Questions - Urox, Gagarth, Babeester Gor, GoG runes, Grain Goddesses 6879: jonas.schiott = (Jonas Schiott) - A Watery Light; the Esoteric Earth. 6880: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner) - Re: Settlers 6881: jonas.schiott = (Jonas Schiott) - Re: Questions. 6882: sandyp = (Sandy Petersen) - Re: stuff 6883: alex = (Alex Ferguson) - Re: The Nature of Gods, Myths and Heroquests 6884: yfcw29 = yfcw29@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk - Spirits and German visit. 6885: CHEN190 = (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty) - An Important Announcement about Chargg 6886: alex = (Alex Ferguson) - Population of Sartar 6887: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke) - Mark's Answers 6888: M.Hitchens = (Michael Hitchens) - Clans and Bloodlines 6889: rowe = (Eric Rowe) - Runequest Adventures Fanzine 4 is out. --------------------- From: grendel@mercury.sfsu.edu (John Castellucci) Subject: RQAdventures Fanzine Issue 4 Message-ID:Date: 9 Nov 94 02:29:03 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6877 Issue 4 of RQ Adventures is hot off the press and now availble in North America. Subscribers will have their issues mailed out this week. Check with your local distributer for availability in your part of the world. Issue 4 is 36 pages + cover and features: Background on the city of Whitewall; Scenario during the fall of Whitewall; Sartar plants; After Taxes scenario by John E. Boyle; Orlanthi cameos; Player characters & more! RQ Adventures 2006 22nd Ave San Francisco CA 94116 email: grendel@sfsu.edu RQA is published 2-3 times a year and 36+ pages plus cover. Subject matter is Gloranthan RQ with a special emphasis on adventures. Single issues $5.00US for North America $7.00US foreign(please see distributer list before order) Checks/money orders payable to John Castellucci Orders shipped via US Airmail #1 Escape from Duckland, et. al. --- Only a few left in U.S. #2 Dreams Dragons Bring, et. al. --- OUT OF PRINT IN U.S.!!! #3 The Block, Devil's Swamp, et. al. --- Only a few left in U.S. #4 The Fall of Whitewall, et. al. Coming soon... Best of RQA vol 1 -- highlights of the first 3 issues, dec 94 #5 Dorastor -- winter 94/95 Foreign Distribution Inquiries Joerg Baumgartner, Europe (joe@sartar.toppoint.de) Andrew Bean, Down Under (abean@geel.dwt.csiro.au) --------------------- From: David.Burtin@loria.fr (David Burtin) Subject: Re: Questions - Urox, Gagarth, Babeester Gor, GoG runes, Grain Goddesses Message-ID: <199411101105.MAA13235@braudel.loria.fr> Date: 10 Nov 94 13:05:14 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6878 Mark Hansen writes : > Who is Urox? He sounds a lot like Storm Bull (or an aspect thereof) but > I can't find him in GoG or my Storm Bull cult description from RoC. Dorastor > mentions the Mad Dog Templars but doesn't go into much detail. How is Urox's > myth history different than Storm Bull? Urox IS Storm Bull. > Why are some of the runes shown twice in the GoG cult descriptions? For > example, Orlanth shows the movement, air, air, and mastery runes. Air is shown > twice. It means this god is the current owner of this rune. --------------------- From: jonas.schiott@vinga.hum.gu.se (Jonas Schiott) Subject: A Watery Light; the Esoteric Earth. Message-ID: <9411101409.AA09286@vinga.hum.gu.se> Date: 10 Nov 94 16:09:07 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6879 Harald and Alex have been discussing the peculiarities of the map in Codex #2, here's another one: Have you noticed that the path of the sun passes through a heck of a lot of ocean? I thought Yelm had to pass through _hell_ every night? Then again, what could be more hellish for a great ball of fire than to be submerged under water. :-) _________ David Dunham (BTW, I _have_ to use _your_ last name, but how many guys named Jonas are there on this list:-)?) responds to my Ernaldan quip: >Ernalda is indeed present in East Ralios, but not nearly as important as >Orlanth's main wife, Ralia. That was kinda my point, wasn't it? ;-) >Ernalda is still the typical access to the Six Earths Which means? That she's an obscure mythical figure thought of as very powerful, but not actually worshipped by normal people? Again, that was my complaint. Isn't it sort of strange that _Orlanth_ is found in more-or-less the same shapes and flavors all over Genertela, while poor Ernalda has to see herself supplanted by various local bimbos? Whatever happened to the "Cult of Orlanth and Ernalda"? ;-) ( Jonas Schiott ) ( Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria ) ( Goteborgs Universitet ) --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Re: Settlers Message-ID: Date: 10 Nov 94 14:40:26 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6880 Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 6872 Me: >> Those of the settlers who came for religious or political reasons came >> because they wanted to change their life from that accepted at home. > Cart before horse. They came because the way of life previously accepted > at home (their accustomed way of life) was now being changed. That's very relative, IMO. You stated the official Sartarite version, which is accepted as the truth among the Quivini. Yet this is the truth of today c. 120,000 Quivini tribesmen vs the truth of c. 500,000 Heortlanders, who remained in their country. >> I believe most fled because they resisted the dominance of the city- >> dwellers, and to escape the taxes introduced by the Pharaoh. > Que? I believe most "fled" to maintain their traditional way of life and > religion. "I believe" is the core of the issue. I view the Quivini Immigrants as similar to the early US settlers, partly people persecuted for their believes or political views, partly ambitious younger sons looking for a chance for a new beginning. To traditional Orlanthi, paying taxes is a violation of their way of life, IMO. Taxes aren't an Orlanthi institution, they are regarded as a shameful tribute to be paid to an oppressor. (Paying a land rent for land owned by another (clan, lord) or for services like ferries or bridge and road upkeep is a different matter. To pay for military duty, another early tax source, is contrary to the Orlanthi way, in which a man has to fight for himself, or his friends and family.) I suppose a number of Heortland city-dwellers took the opportunity to change their lot and followed the disgruntled clan chiefs across the cross-line. Do you think the remaining people in Heortland did change their ways to an extent that they became unrecognisable as Orlanthi? IMO they rather adapted a bit, and remained as they were before. If you were right that their traditional ways had changed completely, David Hall's assumptions for the Aeolians resembling the Heortlings that much seem strange. If things did not change that much, well, the reasons must have been different. IMO the most likely scenario is that several clan chiefs (like Mad-blood Malan, ancestor of both the Malani and Lismelder tribes) were exiled for their continued resistance against the changes, and rather than becoming mercenaries at foreign courts, they chose to settle with their families and friends in the recently opened Quivini lands. Thus at least some of the immigrants to the Quivin valleys were politically motivated, rather than religiously. The introduction of a general tax in Kethaela could have upset people enough that some rather sold their immobile property and emigrated, if it wasn't confiscated. If current reading among Sartarite historians makes the Quivini settlers fighters for their creed, that's fine with me. Their cousins in Heortland are likely to have a different view on this chapter of history. Both views will be true... -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: jonas.schiott@vinga.hum.gu.se (Jonas Schiott) Subject: Re: Questions. Message-ID: <9411101543.AA09907@vinga.hum.gu.se> Date: 10 Nov 94 17:43:26 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6881 Mark Hansen: >How is Urox's >myth history different than Storm Bull? Beats me. I think Greg just threw in something with a norse sound to it while writing KoS, to counter all the celtic stuff. ;-) >What's the story on Gagarth, the Wild Hunter? [...] Why isn't he mentioned >that much? 'Cause it's the bad guys' cult. Not quite chaotic, but bad news all the same. And with none of the Storm Bullies' socially redeeming features. >What is the darkened square rune for Babeester Gor shown in GoG? Why, Dark Earth, of course. :-) It represents the more aggressive and destructive aspects of the Earth, as opposed to all that fertility-and-flowers stuff. >I get the >feeling that there's more runes than are shown in the Deluxe rules You got that right. >Why are some of the runes shown twice in the GoG cult descriptions? It denotes ownership of the rune. To be precise, the idea seems to have been that it should show _current_ ownership, as opposed to _original_ ownership (which gets the rune in question + Infinity), but this wasn't carried out with 100% consistency. Besides, you're gonna get a lot of answers along the lines of "The Runes are just an evil God Learner ploy! Ignore them!" ;-) >In other words, do Ernalda initiates stick with the Grain Goddess >they originally worshipped? Or, do they change grain goddesses when they move >to a new region? I would say the later: if your PCs are primarily Ernalda, then the grain goddesses will be regarded as faceless hangers-on rather than powers in their own rights. ( Jonas Schiott ) ( Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria ) ( Goteborgs Universitet ) --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) Subject: Re: The Nature of Gods, Myths and Heroquests Message-ID: <9411101801.AA08472@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 10 Nov 94 18:01:14 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6883 Michael Hitchens: > Conservative Dara Happans seem to be trying to deny that Yelmalio is > the son of Yelm. Does the fact that Yelmalio gets a sunspear from > Yelm (as per associate cults in his description in Sun County) > indicate that they have little chance of proving their point? It is fairly strong indication that Yelmalio worshippers grovel in front of antesmia statues, and Yelm, or some reasonable facimile humours them to the extent of the occassional spell. Hence they do acknowledge there is some ("perverted") Yelm worship going on. That doesn't mean they have to buy their dogmatic spoutings, like their god being Yelm's son. David Gadbois (one of Tarski's biggest fans): > Myths > can be false (and fall more in the category of urban legend, I suppose) > if there is no correspondence between the mythic statement and the > Godplane. I don't think this is true. If a significant number of people believe believe something to be true, it is reflected in the Godplane. This could still be an "urban legend" in the sense of not corresponding to a historical truth, but I tink you can still get magic'n'stuff from such things. Though if a myth isn't generally believed by some large wodge of population, it'll only have local and minor power (whether "true" or not, come to that). > There is also the not inconsiderable twist that changing the Godplane > can change the mundane one, too. For example, one could heroquest to > prevent Grandfather Mortal from getting the first taste of Death; if you > were successful, no one would die anymore. Obviously, you'd need to do this quest at a "very high level" in order to achieve this affect. A more modest effect might be achieving personal, familial, or racial immortality... > Glorantha's myths are continually being acted out on the Godplane. > (YES/NO) > No. To be pedantic: The Godplane is the events and their > interconnections that the myths talk about. I guess you could say that > the events are being continually acted out, in the sense that they are > just there and don't change by themselves. And they are also being acted out in the sense that Heroquestors keep going there and dashed well doing it. And furthermore, this is how the worshippers tend to think of the Godplane, as the place where the Gods sit around (re)doing stuff, rather than the neatly graph-theoretic terms we God Learners like to model it as. > Remember Dunham's (one of the many false Davids) famous quote: > "Don't believe all that Dara Happan propoganda. After all, it was > written down, and thus can't change with reality." Also a problem with good comedy, sadly. > As I understand it, there seem to be two vitally different forms of > heroquesting, one where the participant simply re-enacts the actions > of the god, thereby reinforcing the current state. The other form > is a conscious attempt to *change* the state of the godplane. The > second form is much harder. Am I correct on these two points? > Yes. There are also the unintentional heroquests that sadistic GMs like > to inflict upon their players. I don't think these two are fundamentally different. I don't think David's is different at all. (Well, funnier, maybe. }B->) I think that the current state is so fluid, not to say unknowable, that it's impossible to say whether it will be changed by a particular act, and I don't think intent is critically relevant. Alex. --------------------- From: yfcw29@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk Subject: Spirits and German visit. Message-ID: <9411101609.aa20991@uk.ac.ed.castle> Date: 10 Nov 94 16:09:48 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6884 watson@csd.abdn.ac.uk (Colin Watson) says: >The current rules imply that the use of MP/INT/spells is a peculiar quirk of >the spirit itself which only manifests when the spirit is bound. That's what I >don't like. It's too contrived. I don't see it as contrived at all. It seems perfectly natural to me that certain spirits will have certain specific spells, powers or attributes dependent on their nature. Intelect spirits are splintered fragments of conciounsess; Power spirits are shreds of psychic energy; spell spirits may have more naturalistic orrigins. Eg an Ignite spirit may be a minor league relation of a salamander. Many shamans may think of spirit spells as being minor summonings, or invocations of spirits or spirit powers. That is perfectly in line with animistic belief. To those who say 'I can disprove that by watching what happens with mystic vission', it is in the nature of magic that the observer will see what he expects. If there was a prefered magical reality in Glorantha that could be determined using magical analysis, then how come there is so much magical diversity? ... RQSight excepted. ;) I can imagine another way to achieve what Colin wants. If Intelect and Power spirits are fragments of spirit conciousness and energy, where did they come from? Is it possible to perform psychic surgery on a captive spirit, ripping out the bits you want and bending them to a desired purpose? Such powers or techniques may be available via spirit cults. I don't see such activities as being chaotic at all, just darned unpleasant. Perhaps those who follow the horned man follow a naturalistic path, conserving the spiritual environment, while those who follow the bad man are psychic exploiters and polluters. It am sure Colin and I can find some common ground here. I think Joerg said: >There must be a couple of gods in Glorantha unknown to anyone, >but still there... You mean like the one in Snakepipe Hollow, old barleyhead whateverhisnamewas. German RQers : I will be visiting a friend in Regensberg in December. I arrive in Munich during the evening of Friday 2nd and will travell on to Regensberg that evening. At least, that is the plan so far. I will be staying in Regensberg for a week, I am going with another English frind and we will probably hire a car while we are out there. Do any of you live in that area? Simon Hibbs yfcw29@castle.ed.ac.uk --------------------- From: CHEN190@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty) Subject: An Important Announcement about Chargg Message-ID: <01HJBFVFQKR6A138ZZ@csc.canterbury.ac.nz> Date: 11 Nov 94 03:27:37 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6885 An Important Announcement on Chargg: ==================================== In an attempt by Joerg and me to ascertain what lies within the hidden borders of Chargg, we have uncovered a possibility so horrific that it Must Be True... Do not read any further if you value your sanity... We believe that Chargg contains a horde of Daily scholars! Imagine the consequences! A wave of strange alien beings come out of Chargg. They are lead by the mysterious Greg who somehow can change natural laws and history by merely thinking about it. His demented followers agree that this is a virtue something which nobody sane can contemplate. Widely feared, is his chief lieutenant, Sandy, who has a horde of alien monstrosities following his every whim. These enormities are vunerable only to the Six Weapons of Doom (which is lost to Glorantha). The other beings are too horrible to contemplate. Severe damage will be done to the Red Moon as people try to prove whether it can be seen all other the world or not. A massive famine will strike the west as somebody proves that you can't grow crops in Genertela without Bless Crops. The Hills of Gold will be the site of a massive Thermonuclear explosion as someone proves there was only One Sun at the Hills of Gold. The Vadeli nation becomes the strongest nation on earth after somebody mishears somebody else and proves the Veldang are the Blue Vadeli. Civil War breaks out among the Kitori Tribe about its origins as the humans turn into trolls and sacrifices the uz clans in Grim Rites to Black Arkat. A Wave of political violence sweeps Esrolia as the Queens debate on how a matriachy should be run. A mysterious plague of Hyena multilations sweep the land. The Pralori of Ralios mutate into horrible chaos things with huge anthers who crack awful puns and follow the lead of the sinster Baron von Moosehsunchen. Zzabur says 'Eat my Shorts' to the Ruling Talar as he realizes after listening to one of the Scholars that he is the Son of Malkion the Founder while the others only follow Malkion the Law Giver. The Divine Thought Police make their first Arrest and turn all the Thiests into Mindless Automatons fearful of Rebellion. The No Wind becomes a Great Clam which then splashes into the Sea creating the Flood. The Coastline of Pamaltela turns into a mirror image of Genertela while the Inland Doraddi are stricken by mysterious plagues that radiate from the swamps... Hope this Helps :) --Peter Metcalfe --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) Subject: Population of Sartar Message-ID: <9411102047.AA09457@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 10 Nov 94 20:47:16 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6886 Michael Hitchens predicts: > I know I have propably been Gregged all over the place, but at least they > are something. > Balmyr > Population: 3,500 > Number of Clans: 3 Thou art hereby Gregged: KoS, p202 gives them as having ten clans. Mind you, that was 300 years ago. While 1000-member clans may be the norm, I'd be surprised if things work out very neatly like that in practice. After all, the Colymar went from being a single clan to five, with (presumably) the same total population. > I don't think the population of Clearwine (~1500) as given in KoS and the > population of Sartar in the Genertela book (180,000) can both be correct. That's a bit of a leap, to say the least. That Clearwine has 1500 residents hardly means all stockades do; after all, by your own figures, the Colymar are one of the largest tribes, and the town also adjoins Balmyr territory. Nor is it an insuperable problem that this could make it bigger than some of the "cities", since this status may have more to do with their founding by Sartar, their fortification, amenities, socioeconomic importance and/or political status, rather than mere population. I'm skeptical whether the populations of Boldhome and Alda-Chur are as high as are quoted here (8000 and 4000), since this would have them accounting for 2/3 of the urban population, which seems a tad steep. Nick Eden: > I'm not very convinced by clans that are 1500 people big either. Surely > with 1500 people about you don't need to worry too much about inbreeding? Probably not much, no. (Depending on _who_ they marry, obviously.) But clans are social constructs, not minimaxed breeding programmes, so customs will persist even as clans get larger. (Note that Volsaxi clans seem to be even larger, and perhaps Hendriki, too, though for them clans are less important, I think.) Alex. --------------------- From: M.Hitchens@st.nepean.uws.edu.au (Michael Hitchens) Subject: Clans and Bloodlines Message-ID: Date: 11 Nov 94 23:45:14 GMT X-RQ-ID: 6888 More questions, but on a totally different topic.... KoS, p. 250 "Bloodlines are exogamous" further down that page "The clan is also responsible for overseeing marriages within its bloodlines" KoS, p.254 "Clans are exogamous" Now I think the second quote should have "between" where it has "within", but that still leaves the first two quotes contradicting the third. (Or at least the second contradicting the third and th first unnecesry if the third is true.) I know KoS has many deliberate contradictions in it, but given that these quotes all come from the same document (Report on the Orlanthi), I do not think this one is intentional. So can you marry someone of your clan who is not of your bloodline? Has Greg ever clarified this? Sandy? On the subject of blood lines, we know clans are 500-2000 people, average 1200. What is the typical size of a bloodline? How many are there typically in a single clan? thanks Michael -------------------------------------- Michael Hitchens Lecturer, Dept. of Computing University of Western Sydney Nepean PO BOX 10 Kingswood NSW 2747 Australia michael@st.nepean.uws.edu.au -------------------------------------- All that we do or seem Is but a dream within a dream