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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 16 Nov 1994, part 2
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From: M.Hitchens@st.nepean.uws.edu.au (Michael Hitchens)
Subject: Re: Population of Sartar
Message-ID:
Date: 15 Nov 94 05:00:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6907
Alex Ferguson
===============
>Michael Hitchens predicts:
>> I know I have propably been Gregged all over the place, but at least they
>> are something.
>> Balmyr
>> Population: 3,500
>> Number of Clans: 3
>
>Thou art hereby Gregged: KoS, p202 gives them as having ten clans.
>Mind you, that was 300 years ago.
Oh well. I'll have to go have a look at my figures and see if the Balmyr
should have more people. But that means someone else looses out. I really
get the feeling Greg hasn't done the figures. He seems to have in mind
tribal populations which add up to far more than 180,000.
>While 1000-member clans may be the norm, I'd be surprised if things
>work out very neatly like that in practice. After all, the Colymar
>went from being a single clan to five, with (presumably) the same total
>population.
All I was going off was KoS, where it said that the range was 500-2000, with
1200 being the norm. If you look at my figures, the numbers of clans per
tribe is roughly tribe poplation/1200 fiddled a little. You could make
the Balymyr (say) seven clans, all very small. You could easily say they
have lost three over 300 years (look at how many the Colymar lost). You
might also like to decrease the number of clans in a couple of other tribes,
just to keep near the 1200 average for the kingdom. In fact, I will go and
alter my figures accordingly. And try and wrok out some reason the Balmyr
clans are so small.....
>> I don't think the population of Clearwine (~1500) as given in KoS and the
>> population of Sartar in the Genertela book (180,000) can both be correct.
>
>That's a bit of a leap, to say the least. That Clearwine has 1500
>residents hardly means all stockades do; after all, by your own figures,
>the Colymar are one of the largest tribes, and the town also adjoins
>Balmyr territory. Nor is it an insuperable problem that this could
>make it bigger than some of the "cities", since this status may have
>more to do with their founding by Sartar, their fortification, amenities,
>socioeconomic importance and/or political status, rather than mere
>population.
>I'm skeptical whether the populations of Boldhome and Alda-Chur are as
>high as are quoted here (8000 and 4000), since this would have them
>accounting for 2/3 of the urban population, which seems a tad steep.
It was all very rough. The only figure I had was for Sartar 180,000, per
G:CotHW. The RQ GM's book says the maximum urbanisation is 10%. I think
G:CotHW says the same thing, but I may be wrong. I really doubt Sartar is
that high, except that those cities are probably pretty sparse, compared
to (say) New Pavis, or anything in the LUnar Empire (the walls came first
and people probably grapped large areas within them - I think there is a
*lot* of room for growth. Given that, you could postulate a higher number,
say something in the order of 24,000 (15%), because a lot of it is not
really urbanised. Let's use l (low) for figures based on 10% and h (high)
for figures based on 15%.
G:CotHW also gives Boldhome and Alda-Chur the symbols on the map for the
6,000-25,000 and 2,000-8,000 categories respectively. They have to have at
least 8,000 (l) people in them. Getting them off the bare minimum, giving
them 12,000 (h) does not seem unreasonable to me. Alda-chur is not one
of Sartar's cities (I think) so it is probably fairly crammed and has had a
while to grow. Boldhome is the capital and the map in Home of the Bold
portrys a very large settled area within the walls. Even on a figure of
only 1/4 as dense as New Pavis, you still get a population of 8,000.
So that leaves 10,000 (l) or 12,000 (h) for everywhere else. I certainly take
your point about the artifical nature of the southern cities. But they all
seem to have important temple settlements and are on important roads. They
should have out paced the stockades by now, especially as they are multi-tribe,
giving a wider population base for people to move to them. So I really can't
go with giving Alone, Jonstown, Swenston, and Wilm's Kirk less than 1000-1500
each. That leaves us with 5000 (l) - 7000 (h) for eveywhere else.
You could put 1,500 of them in Clearwine, but that leaves 3,500 - 5,500 for
the other 15 stockades, an average of 230 - 370. (I also thought Clearwine was
wholy Colymar. It might be near the Balmyr, but I didn't think any
Balmyrians lived there.) That average is scraping he bottom of the
classifications of urbanisation in the RQ GMs book. And why is Clearwine a
stockade if its so much bigger than all the others? Certainly there is no
way all those stockades could have anything like 1,500 (or even a 1,000) each.
Anyway, if Clearwine has 1,500 people than that is the total urbanisation that
the Colymar can support, they are doing nothing to help the cities, that's
all being left to other tribes. Maybe, but I don't know. I think it says
somewhere the Colymar would not take part in Sartar's city building, but I
also get the feeling that the thing's he was building were going to be much
larger settlements, even immediately, then anything the tribes already had.
I think the real answer is that Greg has not done the sums. One (or maybe
both) of the following is false:
1. Sartar has 180,000 people
2. Clearwine is significantly more important than any of the other stockades
on the DP map
Unless an official Sartar Pack appears, we are not going to know the "answer".
For the time being, 1,500 is too big for my vision of Clearwine. If nothing
else, it means there are going to be too many temples there, and I want my
players to travel when they go looking to sacrifice for divine magic.
Michael
--------------------------------------
Michael Hitchens
Lecturer, Dept. of Computing
University of Western Sydney Nepean
PO BOX 10 Kingswood NSW 2747
Australia
michael@st.nepean.uws.edu.au
--------------------------------------
All that we do or seem
Is but a dream within a dream
---------------------
From: M.Hitchens@st.nepean.uws.edu.au (Michael Hitchens)
Subject: Re: gods, myths & heroquests
Message-ID:
Date: 15 Nov 94 05:05:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6908
>> Does anyone agree with me that the God Learners seem to be winning?
>> The myths of all cultures seem to be evolving towards each other into
>> the mono-myth.
Nick Brooke
===========
>Nope. In fact, the monomyth of the Second Age is falling apart, and the God
>Learners are all dead and gone. BTW, why do you think the confusion which
>surrounds the whole Elmal/Yelmalio business on all sides is somehow
reinforcing
>the monomyth? It seems to be doing quite the reverse!
I don't think the monomyth is falling apart. I think people are realising the
holes it had in it all along (there is a big difference). The point being I
think those holes are getting smaller. Yelmalio is filling one of those
holes,linking the Theyalan sun god to the Pelorian sun pantheon. Where
there was once no relation between the two, one is growing, linking the
two into a single (mono) mythology.
So I seem to be more in agreement with Jonas Schiott on this one, to whit
his comment:
> Ummm, maybe. Most of the evolution took place _during_ the GL's period, I
> would think. The rest is a result of a natural process of cultures trying
> to understand each other. Which of course means that the GLs had the basic
> idea right, they just took it to unhealthy extremes.
Jonas Schiott
==========
(To summarise
Jonas thinks Elmal and Yelmalio are not the same god, but that the worshippers
who switched were not visited by Elmal's spirit of reprisal
"Because they _believed_ it was the same entity. Thus they were free from
the feelings of betrayal and guilt that the spirits use to find their
victims".)
I am not sure I like this. Does that mean if I eventually come to decide that
my cult's rules are unreasonable, start breaking them because I don't think
they make any sense (without any feelings of guilt, because they are senseless)
and then eventually leave the cult because it's all become a joke, the spirits
of retribution won't touch me? As long as I think I am right I won't suffer
divine retribution? I can't see many gods/spirits of retribution working on
the basis, "Well, they thought they were doing the correct thing so will leave
them alone"... There may be no such thing as objective right and wrong, but
there are actions etc that unnaceptable to each god.
>>why can not a Yelmalio Priest use divination to find out if the Elmal
>>worshippers are worshipping the same god?
>Because this is a question about mythology, not history. Gods, not knowing
>much about Time, make lousy historians.
If they are lousy historians, what can they answer but questions about
mythology? The question I pose should be really easy for a god to answer:
The god only knows what its worshippers tell it. It should therefore know who
those worshippers are.
Another reason why a Yelmali priest might ask this question is to see whether
there is any point trying to save the Elmali from the benighted, or is that
bestormed? :-), worship.
>>just what are the gods exactly? Nonexistent? Schizophrenic?
>>Do they exist as identifiable entities at all? Are they completely at the
>>mercy of their worshippers?
>He. The answer to all of these questions is _yes_. And no... maybe.
That makes life difficult for us poor GMs.
>>Can the myths (ie the state of the godplane) be altered other than by
>>heroquesting?
>A tricky one. It doesn't look that way. Not directly, anyway. I would say
>that if enough people believe something, a Hero will rise from the ranks to
>make an attempt at 'proving' it.
This is my opinion too.
Peter Metcalfe
============
>The best way to look at it (I suppose) would be to introduce the concept of
> Heresy in Glorantha.
Even if the worship is heretical, it's still the same god,
the question could still be asked and the priest has even more reason to rescue
the flock from the heretical Elmali priesthood. Religions have often been in
interested in the question of: do you worship different gods or the same
gods but in a different (and therefore probably wrong) manner.
>>If two Dara Happan Rune Priests of Yelm, one who believes Yelmalio is not
>>the son of Yelm and one who does, both cast Divination asking Yelm "Is
>>Yelmalio your son?" will they get the same answer (yes?) or will they be
>>answered according to their own beliefs?
>IMO both would recieve the Answer Yes.
That's what I think as well.
>You some kind of God Learner?
What are you going to do if I say yes? :-)
>Two seperate myths here. Humakt slew the Gaping Void with the True Sword.
>This turned it into the Stagnation whom Magasta overcame. If a Sword seeks
>help from Waterspirits in the HQ, he will be warping the characteristics of
>the waterspirits.
Not exactly what I had in mind, more the Humakti sticking his nose into the
Magastan HQ.
>BTW Humakt doesn't have any friends. The Death Rune is that of Seperation.
>He has no Kinship ties or Associate Gods because that is Antithetical to his
>nature. So if a Sword managed to get Magasta as a associated cult, IMO he
>would lose reuable Sever Spirit at the very least.
I wasn't looking for Humakt to get an associate cult, just to prove he was
better than any other war god. But, in this case, instead of fighting
Magasta proving that magasta once took orders from him. He fights on
Orlanth's side now and then but is not an associate of Orlanth. He
(questor or god) wouldn't get any powers out of this, just the kudos of
being the guy in charge and therefore acknowledged as pre-eminent.
>>Can the myths (ie the state of the godplane) be altered other than by
>>heroquesting? (YES/NO) Eg, if enough normal people believe, does it change?
>>(it being the mythical "truth" as represented by the god plane). (YES/NO)
>People can really only believe in Gods. They can't believe in certain acts
>for the acts have a mythic momentum of their own. To change that one
>requires a HQ.
This one seems to have got some debate. Some people say heroquesting is
the only way to change the godplane, some say otherwise. I think there
is little if any evidence for the later, but that does not mean it is
impossible.
---------------------
Colin Watson
===========
>I think the essential point here is that the mapping of names to gods
>is purely subjective (IMHO). One man's Yelmalio is never exactly the same as
>another man's Yelmalio.
I agree names are subjective and the worship at two temples is rarely, if ever,
identical. If I followed the practices of the sun dome, but called my god
Elmal, would my high priest have Sunspear? I'd bet that he would. Would
I be worshipping the god of the sun dome or the god of the Elmali clan?
If they are not the same then I think the former (regardless of name).
>> Just WHAT are the gods?
Colin had a really hoopy answer to this one. I think I need to pose a new
question on this:
Are the gods self aware beings?
I think Colin would answer no, given his previous statements, but it is
over to him for clarification.
Boris Mikey
=========
I like your model of the godplane. And I think Greg does not know what is the
"True reality" of the godplane. My suspicion is that he does not want to.
Because he does not want there to be a true reality to the god plane. He
does not want things to work that way.
Rob Heinsoo
==========
>I like Michael Hitchens' statement that the 'Lunars Win' future may turn out
>just as awful as King of Sartars' future. This certainly would highlight the
>importance of Compromise.
Hum. I don't want to take credit where it is not due. Greg told me, in
late '92 that the Lunar book would have a very different future history from
that in KoS. I don't know if that is still his intention (I certainly hope so
though). I am not sure where I got the idea it would be just as bad as
that in KoS. Greg may have told me, he may have implied it or I might
actually have come up with it myself (but I would not claim that that is so).
Anyway, thanks to everyone for the answers to this and my questions about
clans.
Certainly food for thought.
I'd like to end this message with a repeat of my current question:
Are the gods self aware beings?
Michael
--------------------------------------
Michael Hitchens
Lecturer, Dept. of Computing
University of Western Sydney Nepean
PO BOX 10 Kingswood NSW 2747
Australia
michael@st.nepean.uws.edu.au
--------------------------------------
All that we do or seem
Is but a dream within a dream
---------------------