>Gods of Glorantha has been referred to on this list.
Thanks for the reference. FWIW I was referring to the Pavis boxed set. The generic 'City Gods' entry in Gods of Glorantha describes generalised city gods in much narrower terms than the specific writeup for Pavis in the boxed set, so now I can see how the narrower interpretation can arise. But the original poster was looking for reasons to allow, not disallow, the Pavis cult abroad.
FWIW I note well the comparison made in canon between the worship of Pavis, the Red Goddess, and Sartar. They are all somewhat similar, a type of city cult which in the case of the Red Goddess and Sartar, grew into founder cults where the being worshipped has greater impact than just a single city. It's very possible and plausible that Pavis could do the same. I seem to recall Ian Thompson's Pavis material hinting quite openly that Pavis cult might end up attempting to recreate the Green Age, which would send Pavis down a similar path to the Red Goddess and Sartar. Like all founder cults, Pavis is far more political in function than spiritual. Alternatively you could interpret the gods as static and unchanging, and argue for Pavis to stay put as a local city god, but this would not help the player going to Sartar.
For this player, there are a number of good reasons why the cult might approve and how they might support him. Expanding the cult's power is an obvious one, as is seeking to thwart an enemy power that threatens to diminish the power of the Pavis cult at home. It could be a challenging and entertaining game for the player Pavisite abroad who is cut off from his magic, but equally it could be challenging and entertaining if he had to fulfill certain criteria or heroquest for certain results in order to maintain his connection to Pavis while he is in Sartar.
Pavis heroquests outside the city itself would probably be concerned with mything, reenacting, etc. some of the following events or similar reworkings of these themes whilst in Sartar or Dragon Pass:
Hero subcults of Pavis who might be prone to wandering might be:
Seventeen Foes of Waha
The leaders of remant survivor bands after the fall of the Arrowsmith
Dynasty and the sacking of the city. They were Garngar Gateguard, Opili the
Walmaker, Estangtang Griffin Rider, Kagtang Four-Magic, Mapiri Red Stallion,
Bisjoe Boggle-eater, Forestang (who left no honour-name), Bingolos Blue
Nose, One-eyed Masari Por, Baku of the Three Treasures, Tan-Bard Smoke,
Olkog Two-club, Balastor the Axe (or Trollslayer), Makor Abolg the
Six-fingered, Jokat Pulos the Dark Priest, Morkor Ablos, Baskori Alingos.
Player heroes might lead remnants from Pavis to symbolically hide among
their enemies.
Balastor the Axe
Balastor drove off Toras Joran who broke through walls of Pavis and was the
first person to damage the temple of Pavis, cracking the crystal bricks.
Balastor dies the last human king of Pavis, fighting Gerak Kag's great troll
army in the barracks at Griffin Gate. Heroes might seek out trolls to
defeat.
Joraz Kyrem / Jhoraz Kyrhee
Joraz was a Pure Horse man of the Sun, changed by a mix of magics from the
Empire of the Wurm's Friends where he and Pavis had studied and become
friends. He travelled back to Dragon Pass several times to return with aid
for Pavis. Under his rule a demigod-like priest from Dragon Pass built the
Puzzle Canal, and elves arrived from Shadow's Dance to create the Garden.
Player heroes might lead groups on missions to travel to faraway places to
fetch aid and assistance for Pavis, or to return with secret knowledge.
Unnamed Hero
The unnamed hero performed unremembered deeds before being killed by trolls
in the city. The nomads ceased to be interested in Pavis after this. Perhaps
for players this is a hero cult of unremembered heroism and humility that
succeeds in distracting the attention of your enemies away to another target
and leaving you alone.
The Wyrm's Friends
I made these up in about two minutes, so you might want to beef up this
idea, based on canon reference to Pavis priests wearing EWF regalia on holy
days. See below. This hero band might be mandated to follow in Pavis'
footsteps and go about gathering allies and abilities.
Hero subcults who wouldn't wander from Pavis:
Iffinbix
A settlement dedicated to a god of the same name, destroyed around 1400.
Yojarl Thirdeye was the main hero, who taught followers how to eat a certain
root to pass safely into the temple.
Mani of the Many Lives
The followers of Mani Tor say he reincarnates into the clan every two or
three generations.
>>You also talked about Pavis being interested / not interested in subcults
>>that operate outside the city of Pavis.
>
>No, the question was about a subcult that would allow Pavis cultists
>to use their magic when travelling in Sartar.
Ah, I thought it was the 'travelling in Sartar' bit that you were questioning Pavis' interest in. OK, let's retry that:
>>Unless there's a subcult of Pavis which lets you use your magic while
>>traveling.
>>
>>
>
>Such as? And why would Pavis be interested in such a cult?
Such as... 'The Wyrm's Friends' subcult. Why? In order to do things that safeguard the city of Pavis. Canon has the priests of Pavis wearing the costume of the Empire of the Wyrm's Friends on official occasions, though the city was never officially part of that empire. Why would the Pavis priesthood be interested in the EWF? Obviously there is Pavis' strong link to them. So the Priests' actions could just be ceremonial, or they could be the subject of a subcult. What sort of a subcult? Well, look at what the EWF meddled with.... but keep it simple, let's say that it's a hero-band with a guardian. They have all sorts of gubbins and paraphenalia symbolising EWF, and they travel freely like Pavis did with a mission to synthesise knowledge and make alliances like Pavis did. It's fine in Pavis, on High Holy Day, but damn, those folks elsewhere on the continent don't take too kindly to folks wandering around with EWF sympathies and regalia ...
What might threaten Pavis? Well, there are trolls, nomads etc. And the Lunars want to 'marry' the Red Goddess to Pavis and add him to their growing pantheon. The cult of Pavis largely resists. The cult of Pavis could choose to just resist locally, but if an opportunity arose to waylay a moonboat, divert a messenger, disrupt the progress of xyz then provided that there was nothing more pressing locally that required attention, then the Pavis cult might want to operate at some distance in the furtherance of protecting the city. It could do this without magic, and it might want to do it with magic. This all might take place in Sartar, but could equally be in Prax. It needn't have anything to do with any 'pan-Heortling nationalism', but there's no reason why it couldn't. Yes it is unlikely, and there are probably more pressing local issues for the cult to deal with. But impossible? No. Could a character have plenty to do on behalf of the Pavis cult even though he is in Sartar? Yes.
Equally, a heroquest could be undertaken to further Pavis' reach by providing support to worshippers in places Pavis had affinities with, for example. There are loads of these places and events that took place there. Dragon Pass, Sartar, Shadow's Dance, Prax, were all the site of something Pavis did. I did a biggish list earlier.
Equally a friendly god might augment Pavis' reach:
>Is there an temple embassy of Pavis (or somesuch) in Sartar? No. The
>awakening of the Faceless statute is Flintnail's cult, not Pavis's
So you're saying that without a temple or embassy or similar in Sartar, Pavis is too weak for any of his magic to work there? Can't a friendly local city god or minor god honour a player's connection with Pavis by granting magic? A good candidate would be Geo. Another might be Orlanth, as when Sartarites first came to build New Pavis the two cults made a pact in which a Sylph of Orlanth's joined the spirits of Pavis in exchange for services to Orlanth, and many of Orlanth's worshippers around Pavis locality have since joined the Pavis cult when their own was outlawed. The player might have come from Pavis with such a pact struck with a powerful Orlanthi, and decide to make use of it in Sartar.
Yes the awakening took place at Shadow's Dance, but I was referring to when Pavis, not Flintnail, defeats Waha with the Faceless Statue which he awakens after studying how with the EWF dragon tutors, and which marches from Shadow's Dance at Pavis' command against the animal nomads of Prax. Like I said, Pavis did feats all over the place.
The Flintnail cult is 'confined' to Pavis yet has three holy places of power. One of these is the Throne at Shadow's Dance, which at least one initiate per year make's a pilgrimage to. No reason why Pavis doesn't have similar affinities with places all over the place where he performed great feats and participated in resonant events. So a player might be encouraged to make a personal pilgrimage, or even be selected as the cult's representative on one, to a place considered or revered as holy. Or even trying to find somewhere that is mythologised as holy to Pavis, but which nobody has found. Like where he studied when he was in Dragon Pass, or where he and Joraz Kyrem used to hang out when they were first buddies.
>Since I've never talked about the physical city as being the limits of
>Pavis's magic, the strawman does not convince.
Ah, I see. I think you're mistaking a fleshman for a strawman though. I was referring to when you said:
>But Pavis is _unable_ to provide magic beyond Pavis, which is
>what is being argued about here.
and
> Still doesn't allow you to cast magic beyond Pavis's boundaries.
and you did also just now say
>You heroquest for your god and people. Heroquesting so you can do
>magic beyond the city borders is excessively self-centred.
I assumed you meant Pavis is unable to provide magic beyond the physical city of Pavis. So, what did you mean when you said 'beyond Pavis' and 'beyond Pavis' boundaries' and 'city borders'? Did you mean something like 'the sphere of influence of the cult' or 'the metaphysical city'? Elsewhere you did say 'Where the precise borders of Pavis's power has not been stated.' but in the two above examples you sound like you think those boundaries do exist, so I am just curious to know what they are in your eyes.
I think there are so few canon references to Pavis' power supposedly not extending beyond Pavis, that a player could take his character to Sartar and work at keeping links with Pavis going without many canon problems, just usual in-game challenges to overcome. Heroquest is basically a permissively structured game, and 'yesbut' would be the guiding principle.
>I await with interest the evidence for Pavisite diplomats in foreign
places...
Cyrilius Harmonius. Any Initiate or Champion of Pavis who stayed on the Cradle. A helper sent to assist with some city specific issues. Any cities in trouble in Sartar that need help? A couple...
I suppose it would hinge on how far you'd have to go before the geography and/or culture became 'foreign'. Pavis in Pamaltela might be a real epic.. Flintnail in Fonrit? :-)
>You heroquest for your god and people. Heroquesting so you can do
>magic beyond the city borders is excessively self-centred.
Excessively self-centred as it may be, this does not mean that they are impossible or not done. Someone else has already mentioned a few likely candidates. And as soon as the cult of Pavis wants to do it, it ceases to be excessively self-centred. I find the evidence that Pavis *should* be limited to Pavis non-existent, so the idea of heroquesting to extend the power of the Pavis cult is not only possible and feasible, but inevitable once examined in the context of the Red Goddess and Sartar. If you take the Green Age and Genert stuff from the Masks/Shadows/Legacy of Pavis and the Rough Guide to Pavis, then this expansive direction is a concrete and definite one.
Cheers,
Paul
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