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Failed tests, classes skipped, forgotten locker combinations. Remember the good 'ol days
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There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

  1. Returned mail - venicebeach.com From: webmaster_at_...
  2. Re: new ability for sorcerors From: "Wulf Corbett" <wulfc_at_...>
  3. Re: Re: Taunting during combat; magic From: "bertmeister" <bertmeister_at_...>
  4. Re: Taunting during combat From: "Tim Ellis" <tim_at_...>

Message: 1
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Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws. http://click.egroups.com/1/4634/9/_/385715/_/959340561/

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

  1. Keyword From: david.boatright_at_...
  2. Re: Knowing the adversary's AP From: "Roderick and Ellen Robertson" <rjremr_at_...>
  3. Re: Re: Taunting during combat From: "Roderick and Ellen Robertson" <rjremr_at_...>
  4. Re: Re: converting; cliffs; magic From: "Roderick and Ellen Robertson" <rjremr_at_...>
  5. Re: Digest Number 72 From: "Roderick and Ellen Robertson" <rjremr_at_...>
  6. RE: Re: Taunting during combat From: "Hibbs, Philip" <philip.hibbs_at_...>
  7. Re: Knowing the adversary's AP From: "KYER, JEFFREY" <jeff.kyer_at_...>
  8. Stickpicker Keyword From: david.boatright_at_...
  9. Re: Stickpicker Keyword From: "KYER, JEFFREY" <jeff.kyer_at_...>
  10. Re: Spirit Travel From: Wulf Corbett <wulfc_at_...>
  11. Re: Spirit Travel From: David Cake <dave_at_...>
  12. Re: Benchmarks From: TTrotsky_at_...
  13. Natha - Rashorna Aspect - 'Understanding' Feats From: "Nick Hollingsworth" <nick.hollingsworth_at_...>
  14. Re: Re: magic From: Jonas Schi=3Df6tt <jonas.schiott_at_...>
  15. Re: Re: Magic From: "Roderick and Ellen Robertson" <rjremr_at_...>
  16. Re: Re: Magic From: Jonas Schi=3Df6tt <jonas.schiott_at_...>
  17. Black Horse Troop Armor From: "markmohrfield " <markmohrfield_at_...>
  18. Re: Black Horse Troop Armor From: "Roderick and Ellen Robertson" <rjremr_at_...>
  19. Re: levels From: David Dunham <dunham_at_...>
  20. Re: Taunting during combat; magic From: David Dunham <dunham_at_...>
  21. Playing on their weaknesses From: "James A. Holden" <jaholden_at_...>
  22. Re: Re: magic From: Jonas Schi=3Df6tt <jonas.schiott_at_...>
  23. Goddess Swap! From: "Tim Ellis" <tim_at_...>
  24. Re: Knowing the adversary's AP From: "Mike Gibb" <m.gibb_at_...>
  25. new ability for sorcerors From: "guy jobbins" <gej865_at_...>

Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:26:23 +0100
   From: david.boatright_at_...
Subject: Keyword

Sorry about the formatting in the keywords I sent.



Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 07:43:44 -0700
   From: "Roderick and Ellen Robertson" <rjremr_at_...>
Subject: Re: Knowing the adversary's AP

> As I understand the rules, you can ask the Narrator what is your
adversary's
> current AP are, once he or you have transfered/forfeit APs.
>
> Is that correct ?

Yes.

> What is the rationale behind that ?

"When I left I was the learner, but now *I* am the master"

"You are good, old man, but not as good as me"

"because I'm not left-handed either"

There are numerous times that the protagonists can tell how good their opponent is and how the fight is going.

> Knowing the exact current APs of the adversary is a major advantage, as i=
t
allows
> the player to do mathematical bid calculation, which could spoil the fun
of
> the contest.

Uh, so don't do that.

> I would have expected that the player could not know that crucial point
unless
> he his using some kind of feat or skill ? Or unless he assesses the AP
according
> to howc the adversary perfom during the contest ("OK, that guy appears to
be
> good at fighting" kind of thing, but not "OK, that guy is 10AP more than
me
> !), or according to description made by the Narrator ("Your adversary
seems
> destabilized, and close to running away").

Since it was a relic from Robin's draft, I'll let him explain more if it needs it.

RR



Message: 3
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 08:00:01 -0700
   From: "Roderick and Ellen Robertson" <rjremr_at_...>
Subject: Re: Re: Taunting during combat

> > How should taunting during combat work?

Use it directly as a morale-breaker, or use it to enhance another ability

> > First taunt: -5
> > Subsequent repartee: -10

Ick.

While I know some people like to make things difficult, and the rules let you do it, is there really a reason to have to remember how many times you taunted someone and then calculate a penalty from it?

Combat is not just hitting people with swords. If you can break their spirit, they will surrender/run away. Verbal abuse is simply another weapon= ,
aimed at morale rather than physical damage. It's not resisted with Sword and Shield but with his own repartee or some mental skills. Taunts might even be used to goad your opponent - "I want to make him bid high next turn (because I've got a hero point to bump my roll) so I insult his mother (using a Simple contest as an unrelated action in the middle of the extende= d
fight)." While this isn't covered in the rules, it is an easy step to extrapolate them.

What I'm trying to say is use the rules, don't try to force them. Run thing= s
through your Common Sense filter. If it doesn't make sense, see if another type of contest works better. See if you can take the existing rules and do what you want before making new rules. HW is very much for the Improvisational gamemaster. Those that want every particular detail nailed down won't like it as much. I feel comfortable with it because that is the way I tend to run games - fast, loose and dramatic.

> What's the - for quoting Monty Python?

-40 before you'll make *me* laugh.

RR



Message: 4
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 08:08:40 -0700
   From: "Roderick and Ellen Robertson" <rjremr_at_...>
Subject: Re: Re: converting; cliffs; magic


> > Admittedly our playtest rules didn't necessarily reflect the final
> > product, but I'd say it was both more common *and* more powerful
> > (since it's in a sense open-ended). After all, a significant
> > percentage of player heroes will now have ranged killing magic.
> >

> I thought someone said the other day that most feats were just
> intended to provide augmentation for normal skills, and it was only
> secrets, (Like Humakt's Death Stare, or whatever it is called) that
> were "ranged killing magic". Even if you mean that players can use
> "death" or "combat" affinities to deduct Action points as feats, is
> this really more common than hte "Disruption" spell?

I think you mis-interpreted David's statement. Most magic can be used at range - except things noted in the Optional and Mandatory Physical contact sections (HW 231) and things that you decide are mandatory (using a fetish requires that the fetish be touching the caster, but not necessarly the target).

Most magic is not all-or-nothing when used in an Extended contest. Some magic, like the Death Stare, *is* all or nothing, but this tends to be the Big stuff - Secrets and the like.

Magic is usually just another weapon in the hero's arsenal. When used as an enhancement, several different feats(/spells/fetishes) can be used at the same time (only *one* mundane ability can be used for enhancement (HW 133)) It can bend the rules a little - For example, the question about enhancing with a Bonus *and* AP from yesterday - I'd allow magic to do that, but not = a
mundane ability.

RR



Message: 5
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 08:10:11 -0700
   From: "Roderick and Ellen Robertson" <rjremr_at_...>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 72


> I would however advise Philippe and co look at the new Sartar Rising
> contents list on the website before starting work as this appears to
include
> some Praxian/Pavic material - including if I'm guessing correctly the
Cradle
> (Robin - can you confirm this?)

I can - there will be a little *descriptive* text about Prax, but no Keywords. The Cradle scenario is *not* part of Sartar Rising.

RR



Message: 6
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 16:04:02 +0100
   From: "Hibbs, Philip" <philip.hibbs_at_...>
Subject: RE: Re: Taunting during combat

>is there really a reason to have to remember how many times=20
>you taunted someone and then calculate a penalty from it?

I never meant it as a strict number-crunching system. It just amused me to = have
rules for taunting during combat.

As to provoking someone into making a large bid, surely it's just as good t= o
make a large bid yourself.

Philip Hibbs http://www.snark.freeserve.co.uk/ Opinions expressed may not even be my own, let=20 alone those of any organisations, nations, species,=20 or schools of thought to which I may be affiliated.



Message: 7
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:37:42 -0400
   From: "KYER, JEFFREY" <jeff.kyer_at_...>
Subject: Re: Knowing the adversary's AP



Roderick and Ellen Robertson wrote:
>=20
> > As I understand the rules, you can ask the Narrator what is your
> adversary's
> > current AP are, once he or you have transfered/forfeit APs.
> >
> > Is that correct ?
>=20
> Yes.
>=20
> > What is the rationale behind that ?
>=20
> "When I left I was the learner, but now *I* am the master"
>=20
> "You are good, old man, but not as good as me"
>=20
> "because I'm not left-handed either"
>=20
> There are numerous times that the protagonists can tell how good their
> opponent is and how the fight is going.

"You've got them on the run!"
=20
> > Knowing the exact current APs of the adversary is a major advantage, as=
 it
> allows
> > the player to do mathematical bid calculation, which could spoil the fu=
n
> of
> > the contest.
>=20
> Uh, so don't do that.

I think that's something I'm going to encourage. Number crunching can destroy the mood [hi steve! =3D) ]
=20
> > I would have expected that the player could not know that crucial point
> unless
> > he his using some kind of feat or skill ? Or unless he assesses the AP
> according
> > to howc the adversary perfom during the contest ("OK, that guy appears =
to
> be
> > good at fighting" kind of thing, but not "OK, that guy is 10AP more tha=
n
> me
> > !), or according to description made by the Narrator ("Your adversary
> seems
> > destabilized, and close to running away").
>=20
> Since it was a relic from Robin's draft, I'll let him explain more if it
> needs it.
>=20
> RR
>=20

Besides, most of my PC's seem to be able to keep track of the running AP's in their heads. Afterall, at the start of the engagement, we do actions in order of AP totals...

...sigh. Want copy of rules. Want. Waaa.

Jeff



Message: 8
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 16:39:40 +0100
   From: david.boatright_at_...
Subject: Stickpicker Keyword

<color><param>0100,0100,0100</param><FontFamily><param>Times New Roman</par= am><bigger>Stickpicker

You are the lowest of the low one step up from a Thrall. Gather=20 firewood, collecting berries and doing odd Stead chores is your=20 lot in life.

Physical Skills: Carry large stick bundle, Steal food scrap,=20 Whittle

Mental Skills: Beg for food, Go un-noticed, Ignore insults,=20 Make charcoal

Personality: Pathetic=0F
Relationships: Small woodland creature=0F Magic: One of the Lowfires ?=0F
Living Standard: Minimal=20

Equipment: Knife, twine

<nofill>



Message: 9
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:53:25 -0400
   From: "KYER, JEFFREY" <jeff.kyer_at_...>
Subject: Re: Stickpicker Keyword



david.boatright_at_... wrote:
>=20
> <color><param>0100,0100,0100</param><FontFamily><param>Times New Roman</p=
aram><bigger>Stickpicker
>=20
> You are the lowest of the low one step up from a Thrall. Gather
> firewood, collecting berries and doing odd Stead chores is your
> lot in life.
>=20
> Physical Skills: Carry large stick bundle, Steal food scrap,
> Whittle

Endure Abuse
=20
> Mental Skills: Beg for food, Go un-noticed, Ignore insults,
> Make charcoal
>=20
> Personality: Pathetic

Of course, you can always have the 'cheerful and determined urchin' archtype here. Or the 'poor folk who don't have nothing except their good spirits'

> Relationships: Small woodland creature
> Magic: One of the Lowfires ?

Oh, a stickpicker can be an Orlanthi, I think. They just don't... well.. I know I wouldn't let my sister marry one.

> Living Standard: Minimal
>=20
> Equipment: Knife, twine

bundle of sticks
=20
Why am I reminded of the Charcoal Burners from Usagi Yojimbo?

Jeff



Message: 10
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:32:16 +0100
   From: Wulf Corbett <wulfc_at_...>
Subject: Re: Spirit Travel

On Wed, 24 May 2000 20:01:15 -0400, David Cake <dave_at_...> wrote:

>>OK, despite reading all the bits I can find that relate to it, I still
>>have a problem figuring how a Shaman gets through that 10W3 barrier to
>>the Spirit Plane. I figure thus:
>>
> Many of the numbers bug my greatly.
> IMO even w2 is too hard. You may well be able to achieve a w2 - but
>that may be because the bonus numbers are too large. IMO.

Well, that's me you quote, and I'm now happy with the numbers. The Fetch's Might makes all the difference, add in some Holy Days, and a bit of support from the community, and you're laughing. Probably maniacally...

Wulf



Message: 11
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 00:39:54 -0400
   From: David Cake <dave_at_...>
Subject: Re: Spirit Travel

>>The Fetch adds it's Might.
>
>That's good...
>

        Actually, its not that good. Adding abilities is almost always a bad idea for long term play balance. Far better to have the fetch add less (say, allow the fetch to augment), and have the value you need to hit be smaller.

        I fear I'm becoming a bit of a broken record on this theme. Which isn't necessarily going to stop my intermittent whinging.

	Cheers
		David




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:15:59 EDT

   From: TTrotsky_at_...
Subject: Re: Benchmarks

Michael Ryan:

<< How do you know when a lion is just lion and it's divine lion, aside fro= m=20
that it could kick the butt of a Hero? It's not about creating scenarios,= =20
but about relating the game numbers to our experiences. Just what does a 1= 5=20
or a 20 mean in terms that we, as
 people, understand? >>

      Once you get a copy of the rules, check out pp119-120. They pretty mu= ch=20
answer the questions you've been asking (or they're intended to - if you fi= nd=20
them a problem, then I guess Issaries will want to know!)

Trotsky



Message: 13
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:50:41 +0100
   From: "Nick Hollingsworth" <nick.hollingsworth_at_...>
Subject: Natha - Rashorna Aspect - 'Understanding' Feats

HW 85, the description of the Rashorna aspect of the goddess Natha. Affinities are listed as being Healing, Otherworld and Understanding. Specific feats are given for Healing and Otherworld elsewhere, but nothing is listed for Understanding. Same thing for the other aspects of Natha, by the way, but for different Affinities (all get Otherworld and Healing + one other).

Anyone got any quick ideas for Understanding feats?

cheers,

guy



Message: 14
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:10:01 +0200
   From: Jonas Schi=3Df6tt <jonas.schiott_at_...>
Subject: Re: Re: magic


Charles Corrigan:

>According to the rules, for one any one task (or problem) and ability=20
>combination you may only roll once - blow it and you must either use=20
>a different ability or wait until your ability increases. See "No=20
>Repeated Attempts", p126

I've looked it up now, and thought some more about it. This rule=20 obviously does not apply in all cases. If you swing at someone with your=20 sword and miss, does that mean you can't try again?

Also, the rule in question is located under the heading of "Ability=20 Test", _not_ the more general section of "Tests", which could be taken to=20 mean that it doesn't apply to contests. Or it could just be an example of=20 poorly organized text.

It seems pretty clear to me that "No Repeated Attempts" does _not_ apply=20 to exchanges within an extended contest. It could conceivably apply to=20 the results of the whole contest, though. But that seems a bit strange,=20 too - just because somebody beat you once, you can't pick a fight with=20 him again?

I'm unsure about simple contests, too. In most cases, failure is it's own=20 penalty. To put a twist on the example on p.128, if you're trying to=20 climb over the city wall before the watch catches you, failure could lead=20 to a chase through the streets instead and then if you succeed at that=20 and wait a while for things to cool down, you could try the climb again.

The stated purpose of the rule is to maintain suspense, and most contests=20

have enough of that since they're performed under a time limit or have=20
serious consequences for defeat (like physical damage). Simple ability=20
tests, on the other hand, are defined as being used precisely in those=20
situations where there's no real pressure, nothing of great importance=20
hanging on the result. For that kind of roll a rule of "no retries" makes=20 sense, because otherwise it'd be the same as an automatic success.

Oh, and BTW, the "or wait until your ability increases" is your own=20 addition, Charles. It's not in the book. :-)



Jonas Schi=F6tt

Bright indications singe
cool undisciplined hours



Message: 15
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:12:59 -0700
   From: "Roderick and Ellen Robertson" <rjremr_at_...>
Subject: Re: Re: Magic


> >According to the rules, for one any one task (or problem) and ability
> >combination you may only roll once - blow it and you must either use
> >a different ability or wait until your ability increases. See "No
> >Repeated Attempts", p126
>
> I've looked it up now, and thought some more about it. This rule
> obviously does not apply in all cases. If you swing at someone with your
> sword and miss, does that mean you can't try again?
>
> Also, the rule in question is located under the heading of "Ability
> Test", _not_ the more general section of "Tests", which could be taken to
> mean that it doesn't apply to contests. Or it could just be an example of
> poorly organized text.

The intent is to restrict the number of times a single action can be attempted so that you don't get the syndrome of "I failed, I try again, I failed, I try again, I failed I try again". It specifically does *not* appl= y
to exchanges in an Extended Contest, but if you are "defeated" in an extended contest, you run into the "no repeated attempt" barrier.

Example: You need to pick a lock. You might roll an Ability Test, a Simple Contest, or even an Extended Contest to do so. If you *fail* to pick the lock, you can't just say "I'll try again". Multiple attempts at the same thing is part of the test - you've already tried jiggling the knob, using a hairpin, trying a knifeblade, etc. Once defeated by the lock, that's it (at least for today - you could come back tomorrow, or even an hour later). You can't just keep trying until you succeed.

> It seems pretty clear to me that "No Repeated Attempts" does _not_ apply
> to exchanges within an extended contest. It could conceivably apply to
> the results of the whole contest, though. But that seems a bit strange,
> too - just because somebody beat you once, you can't pick a fight with
> him again?

You have to wait a bit, not start a new fight immediately. How long "a bit" is depends on the narrator and the story. Going home and picking up your "Three-in-one Home Burglery Kit" can count as "a bit", as can going home an= d
getting a nap and a meal and coming back with a clear head. You don't need to learn more in an ability, but the circumstances should have some sort of change to .

> I'm unsure about simple contests, too. In most cases, failure is it's own
> penalty. To put a twist on the example on p.128, if you're trying to
> climb over the city wall before the watch catches you, failure could lead
> to a chase through the streets instead and then if you succeed at that
> and wait a while for things to cool down, you could try the climb again.

Correct. That's enough of "a bit" to change the situation.

> The stated purpose of the rule is to maintain suspense, and most contests
> have enough of that since they're performed under a time limit or have
> serious consequences for defeat (like physical damage). Simple ability
> tests, on the other hand, are defined as being used precisely in those
> situations where there's no real pressure, nothing of great importance
> hanging on the result. For that kind of roll a rule of "no retries" makes
> sense, because otherwise it'd be the same as an automatic success.

Basically, yes, but if you are defeated by a lock, you are defeated by the lock, whichever system you used.

Roderick



Message: 16
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:26:56 +0200
   From: Jonas Schi=3Df6tt <jonas.schiott_at_...>
Subject: Re: Re: Magic

Roderick and Ellen Robertson 00-05-25 22.12

>You have to wait a bit, not start a new fight immediately. How long "a bit=
"
>is depends on the narrator and the story.
[...]
>You don't need
>to learn more in an ability, but the circumstances should have some sort o=
f
>change to .

Right. This is the basic idea, or rule of thumb, I was looking for.=20 Thanks.

(((   Jonas Schiott                  )))    Don't let THEM
(((   History of Ideas and Science   )))    immanentize
(((   Goteborg University            )))    the Eschaton



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:28:46 -0000
   From: "markmohrfield " <markmohrfield_at_...> Subject: Black Horse Troop Armor

I notice that the armor worn by the members of the Black Horse Troop=20 is 1 rank higher than what the rules say it should be(rank6 instead of=20
5 for metal armor and shield, rank 3 instead of 2 for leather and=20 meatal armor and no shield). Is this an error or does reflect superior=20
equipment?

                                                      Mark Mohrfield



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 16:56:59 -0700
   From: "Roderick and Ellen Robertson" <rjremr_at_...> Subject: Re: Black Horse Troop Armor

> I notice that the armor worn by the members of the Black Horse Troop
> is 1 rank higher than what the rules say it should be(rank6 instead
> of
> 5 for metal armor and shield, rank 3 instead of 2 for leather and
> meatal armor and no shield). Is this an error or does reflect
> superior
> equipment?

Superior equipment - Somehow a "heavy" got left out of the Footman description. It should be "Heavy leather & bronze armor" for Footmen (the Liturgist and Rider already say "Heavy bronze armor and shield", thus correct for the ^6. "Heavy" is a superior equipment modifier.

RR



Message: 19
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:51:17 -0700
   From: David Dunham <dunham_at_...>
Subject: Re: levels

Roderick

> People have run Heroquests with no-mastery heroes (and some still prefer
> that level of play - Hi David!).

You must have me confused with someone else. We didn't feel up to=20 heroquesting until we'd earned our first level of mastery.

And since Roderick brings it up, I do think the game is more fun if=20 you don't start with any skills with mastery, but instead earn them.=20 (Nothing wrong with playing these more experienced heroes!)

> no-mastery is a young kid shading towards experienced at the high end
> 1-mastery is a normal experienced person shading towards "really good" at
> the high end

No mastery is a competent adult. (Remember, most of your hero's=20 abilities won't have a mastery!)

1 mastery is somone really good, one of the best people in his clan=20 at that ability.

Michael wrote

> I had the impression that the default starting level of characters=20
> was a bit higher than the characters currently were.

Probably so -- while I don't think it's possible to directly compare,=20 it does seem obvious that starting Hero Wars characters are quite=20 competent, especially if they are devotees (with lots of reusable=20 divine magic, in RQ terms).

David Dunham <mailto:dunham_at_...>
Glorantha/HW/RQ page: <http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha.html> Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein



Message: 20
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:50:38 -0700
   From: David Dunham <dunham_at_...>
Subject: Re: Taunting during combat; magic

Philip asked

> How should taunting during combat work?

One possibility is that it's an augmentation, except that it's in the=20 negative direction. (Failure of course makes the enemy mad at you in=20 a focused way, giving a bonus.)

Jonas claimed

> Few cults have what I'd call ranged attack magic. Among heortlings, only
> Hedkoranth has a lot of it. The others that can be interpreted this way
> are also warrior cults (except Rufelza for the lunars), and their
> devotees are likely to have better physical fighting abilities anyway.

Just about every cult has ranged magic that can take you out of a=20 combat. I'm only bothering to list the Heortling deities:

Babeester Gor (Shout of Pain), Bevara (Earsplitting Scream), Chalana=20 Arroy (Sleep), Ernalda (Make Person Heavy), Hedkoranth, Humakt=20 (Visage of Fear), Orlanth (Snatch Breath),

Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Vanganth don't have any relevant magic (though=20 Vanganth's secret counts). Odayla's Arrow Sureshot is probably an=20 augmentation. Vinga's throwing feats may be augmentations too (though=20 my playtest character has the Twirling Blade Feat she uses for ranged=20 attack). Yinkin's Paralyzing Bite is probably an augmentation.

> Nothing in the rules implies that beaning someone with a Thunderstone is
> in any way more effective than putting an arrow through them.

Correct. They are equally effective.

> I haven't found
> anything that says magical attacks get any kind of edge to compare with
> weapon ranks either.

This is one reason I think the ranks should remain an optional=20 rule... I find edges slow things down, so the more ways to avoid=20 them, the better.

> Anyway, I assume that as long as you get no worse than a marginal defeat,
> you can try [augmenting] over and over again until you get it right.

I don't allow it, and seeing as how most failures give you a penalty...

> P.S. About enhancements that give edges. They're a _lot_ more efficient
> than bonuses, but among the theist keywords I've only found two feats
> that would seem to do this, both protective in nature.

I tend to prefer using bonuses, since they work for simple contests=20 too, but it seems to me that Bear's Strength, Great Blow, Slashing=20 Blow, Swordhelp, Thunder Sling could all be interpreted as doing more=20 damage. Be creative when describing feats! And yes, a feat can be=20 used more than one way.

Tim answered me

> Even if you mean that players can use
> "death" or "combat" affinities to deduct Action points as feats, is
> this really more common than hte "Disruption" spell?

I do mean this, and unlike the RuneQuest Disruption spell, you can=20
actually kill someone using the ranged magic I mention above (just=20
drive them to a big negative AP total). OK, Sleep probably doesn't=20
kill you (but you might be in an effectively permanent coma at -31=20
AP).

David Dunham <mailto:dunham_at_...>
Glorantha/HW/RQ page: <http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha.html> Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein



Message: 21
   Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:11:14 -0700
   From: "James A. Holden" <jaholden_at_...>
Subject: Playing on their weaknesses

Has anyone experimented with playing on your opponent's weaknesses in extended contests?

Imagine there are two contestants, our Hero and the Villain. The Villain ha= s
the stereotypical personality trait of Overconfident. Now lots of times in fiction, the Hero plays on the Villain's weakness. By "activating" the Villain's personality trait, the Hero gains an advantage.

Would it be possible to augment your own skills by successfully rolling against your opponent's weaknesses? If the Hero knew about the Villain's personality traits in advance, he could take an unrelated action in an extended contest to roll against the Villain's Overconfident trait. The Overconfident trait would be used in a simple contest against the appropriate resistance value for the desired benefit (the higher the potential benefit to the hero, the higher the resistance). If the Hero succeeds, he augments his own skill in the contest. On the other hand, the attempt might backfire, in which case the Hero is now disadvantaged against the Villain.

The nice thing about this mechanic is that the higher the flaw or personality trait's target number, the easier it is for others to take advantage of. Now there's a reason for PCs to buy down those Heroic Arrogance 5w2 flaws! (Note that if you attempt to "activate" a flaw that's not there, the narrator might rule it defaults to 6, making it pretty likel= y
your augmentation attempt will backfire.) And maybe this would be a way to get around the "only one mundane ability can be used to augment" restriction: you can use one mundane ability to augment another, but you ca= n
also use your enemies' weaknesses to augment yourself, too.

This encourages players to spend time investigating their adversaries. Before the big clan meeting, maybe it's worth finding out about the lawspeaker's secret allegiance to the Lunar provincial governor. Verbal slurs against the governor during the meeting might force the lawspeaker to tip his hand, exposing him to the anti-Lunar crowd and giving the PCs a better position in the debate. But if their research is faulty, the PCs wil= l
only end up making fools of themselves.

Can anyone think of a way this would work with edges or AP lending? For tha= t
matter, does it work with augmentation? Would a mechanic like this just encourage flawed narrator characters and flawless PCs?

James



Message: 22
   Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:35:05 +0200
   From: Jonas Schi=3Df6tt <jonas.schiott_at_...>
Subject: Re: Re: magic

David Dunham 00-05-26 07.50

>Just about every cult has ranged magic that can take you out of a=20
>combat. I'm only bothering to list the Heortling deities:
>
>Babeester Gor (Shout of Pain), Bevara (Earsplitting Scream), Chalana=20
>Arroy (Sleep), Ernalda (Make Person Heavy), Hedkoranth, Humakt=20
>(Visage of Fear), Orlanth (Snatch Breath),

Good, a few that I hadn't thought of there. Certainly demolishes my=20
assertion that only warrior cults get them. :-) Still, Orlanth=20
Adventurous doesn't have any at the moment. In a full cult write-up=20
(Thunder Rebels?) he'll get the magic weapon subcults, of course (not=20 that they're difficult to convert now...).

>> I haven't found
>> anything that says magical attacks get any kind of edge to compare with
>> weapon ranks either.
>
>This is one reason I think the ranks should remain an optional=20
>rule... I find edges slow things down, so the more ways to avoid=20
>them, the better.

I kinda like them. They provide another means of differentiation: between=20 two opponents with equal skill, the one with better equipment will tend=20 to be victorious.
I suppose magical attacks don't really _need_ edges anyway, since they're=20 resisted by different abilities and ignore armor in most cases.

>> Anyway, I assume that as long as you get no worse than a marginal defeat=
,
>> you can try [augmenting] over and over again until you get it right.
>
>I don't allow it, and seeing as how most failures give you a penalty...

Yeah, Roderick's already proven me wrong on this one. :-)

>> P.S. About enhancements that give edges. They're a _lot_ more efficient
>> than bonuses, but among the theist keywords I've only found two feats
>> that would seem to do this, both protective in nature.
>
>I tend to prefer using bonuses, since they work for simple contests=20
>too, but it seems to me that Bear's Strength, Great Blow, Slashing=20
>Blow, Swordhelp, Thunder Sling could all be interpreted as doing more=20
>damage. Be creative when describing feats! And yes, a feat can be=20
>used more than one way.

Oops! This is what happens when I have too much information. See, I still=20 had the preview of the rules in mind, where it says: "Unless otherwise=20 indicated, theistic feats are augmentations, sorcery spells give edges=20 and spirits loan APs". But in the published rules this restriction is=20 nowhere to be found, so my argument falls flat. Probably for the best, it=20 was just a RQ holdover anyway... ;-)

The enhancement/augmentation/bonus terminology on p.133-4 is all mixed=20 up, BTW, but not very difficult to sort out.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
Game Masters are not gods.
They just tell them what to do.



Message: 23
   Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:13:11 -0000
   From: "Tim Ellis" <tim_at_...>
Subject: Goddess Swap!

Arrgh! The Godlearners have done a "Demonstator Swap" on my codemonstrators   (Waylands Forge, Birmingham Tomorrow, in case anyone=20 had forgotten!)



Message: 24
   Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:18:38 +0100
   From: "Mike Gibb" <m.gibb_at_...>
Subject: Re: Knowing the adversary's AP

Re. the debate on knowing your opponent's AP total, I have to say that I wa= s
a bit worried about the whole mechanic, as toting up these on little cards every round (sorry, exchange!) seemed like it would detract from the whole story telling aspect of Hero Wars.

As an alternative, would the use of some sort of tokens/currency (coinage o= f
different values, or those glass bead things that Magic players use in whatever it is they do - I apologise now for any personal prejudices peepin= g
out here!) add to the game fun, and keep the players guessing to a degree - "Look at that pile of APs!!!"

I also want to see one of my players, in true poker fashion, push the whole pile forward and say (in best Storm Bull accent),

"Come on!"

as a caveat - I'm still reading the rules, and haven't had the chance to ru= n
anything yet, these were just thoughts that occured while sat at home with my cocoa and HW.

mike 8-)

>
>
> Roderick and Ellen Robertson wrote:
> >
> > > As I understand the rules, you can ask the Narrator what is your
> > adversary's
> > > current AP are, once he or you have transfered/forfeit APs.
> > >
> > > Is that correct ?
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > > What is the rationale behind that ?
> >
> > "When I left I was the learner, but now *I* am the master"
> >
> > "You are good, old man, but not as good as me"
> >
> > "because I'm not left-handed either"
> >
> > There are numerous times that the protagonists can tell how good their
> > opponent is and how the fight is going.
>
> "You've got them on the run!"
>
> > > Knowing the exact current APs of the adversary is a major advantage,
as it
> > allows
> > > the player to do mathematical bid calculation, which could spoil the
fun
> > of
> > > the contest.
> >
> > Uh, so don't do that.
>
> I think that's something I'm going to encourage. Number crunching can
> destroy the mood [hi steve! =3D) ]
>
> > > I would have expected that the player could not know that crucial
point
> > unless
> > > he his using some kind of feat or skill ? Or unless he assesses the A=
P
> > according
> > > to howc the adversary perfom during the contest ("OK, that guy appear=
s
to
> > be
> > > good at fighting" kind of thing, but not "OK, that guy is 10AP more
than
> > me
> > > !), or according to description made by the Narrator ("Your adversary
> > seems
> > > destabilized, and close to running away").
> >
> > Since it was a relic from Robin's draft, I'll let him explain more if i=
t
> > needs it.
> >
> > RR
> >
>
> Besides, most of my PC's seem to be able to keep track of the running
> AP's in their heads. Afterall, at the start of the engagement, we do
> actions in order of AP totals...
>
> ...sigh. Want copy of rules. Want. Waaa.
>
> Jeff



Message: 25
   Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:29:10 -0000
   From: "guy jobbins" <gej865_at_...>
Subject: new ability for sorcerors



last night i was talking with Nick and he mentioned that sorcerors=20 seem utterly blank as characters. after some reflection i think he=20 is totally right - one instinctively knows what a weaponthane should=20 be like (Boastfull Challenge 17+), a Lawspeaker (Impressive Beard=20 1W+) or even a Lunar Governor (Oppress Natives 5W2+).

Sorcerors? No idea - 'Be Wierd' 17 is less than inspiring.

So, blatantly ripping off 'The Fast Show', I'd like to suggest that a=20 new ability be added to those granted by the Order of Makabeus=20 keyword, and that the ability should be 'Speak Like Sir Rowley 'Very,=20 Very Drunk' Birkin QC'.=20=20

Consider the scene: Sorceror in his gloomy study, parchments all=20 over the place, candles drip wax. Sorceror sits in a leather=20 armchair before an open fire, hunting dog at his feet, bottle of fine=20 Oslira brandy within reach. "well, hmph, wrmph nrrrh harhunphn 1623=20 I think it was, rurrph blurgel waaauugh - ha ha ha! A succubus=20 sixteen stone and not an ounce less! WELL! Hurrph wurble argie argie=20 flurble completely exploded srrrhg warphrump he he he! Never found=20 her tail of course, blaerhagel phrum tweedle arp urgle ended up=20 completely smelling of sulphur. Try explaining that to Rector!"

For those of you who have never seen the Fast Show and have no idea=20 what i'm talking about, I sincerely apologise.=20=20

guy





Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:35:19 -0000
   From: "Wulf Corbett" <wulfc_at_...>
Subject: Re: new ability for sorcerors

Never knew his name before... But anyone who's read the Discworld stories knows how to treat Wiz(z)ards and So(u)rcerors... although it's a bit dificult to treat them SERIOUSLY...

Wulf



Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:44:14 +0100
   From: "bertmeister" <bertmeister_at_...>
Subject: Re: Re: Taunting during combat; magic

>
> Tim answered me
>
> > Even if you mean that players can use
> > "death" or "combat" affinities to deduct Action points as feats, is
> > this really more common than hte "Disruption" spell?
>
> I do mean this, and unlike the RuneQuest Disruption spell, you can
> actually kill someone using the ranged magic I mention above (just
> drive them to a big negative AP total). OK, Sleep probably doesn't
> kill you (but you might be in an effectively permanent coma at -31
> AP).

Rob chips in

Come on! Sleep spell someone to death? Lets not forget that Hero Wars is a storytelling game! If you sleep someone, and they lose the AP's and is out of the fight, it is surely up to the narrator to decide what happens to the character. May I suggest that you play other games such as AD&D, or even the old RQ 2 &3 if you wish for a Role-play-by-numbers game!

Respect!
>
>
> David Dunham <mailto:dunham_at_...>
> Glorantha/HW/RQ page: <http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha.html>
> Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Failed tests, classes skipped, forgotten locker combinations.
> Remember the good 'ol days
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4053/9/_/385715/_/959320633/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hw-rules-unsubscribe_at_...
>



Message: 4
   Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:05:18 -0000
   From: "Tim Ellis" <tim_at_...>
Subject: Re: Taunting during combat

>From a mechanical point of view, probably yes, unless the GM allows
you to taunt the opponent and attack in the same 'exchange' (I don't think I would, since 'exchanges' are not time based like 'melee rounds' and 'strike ranks' were)

>From a descriptive point of view, it's completely different. Making
a large bid yourself is doing something risky, taunting your opponent to do so is forcing him into doing so ("Enraged by your insults the Uroxi throws away his shield and aims a two handed blow at your head" - Rolls dice, spend hero point - "... allowing you duck inside his reach and bury your sword in his chest").



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