Ash,
You're missing the point. I'm not spending too much time in actual play thinking over this - I'm just trying to understand how the rules-as-written work. Saying "if you have to think about the rules too long, don't use them" doesn't really help, or answer my question. :-)
For me, HQ2 is a rules set where it's easy just to cave in and houserule or even just "wing" tons of stuff, rather than thinking through the implications of the rules-as-written. Right now I'm not interested in doing that. I've played HW and HQ1 extensively, and now I'm playing HQ2 and basically trying to tease out the fine points of the rules. I *want* to understand the rules-as-written - they seem to be much more robust and internally consistent than both HW and HQ1, although they're very different, and in places quite complex - and that includes the broad ability penalty / niche protection rules (as I've said before, I'm fine with the Specific Ability bonus rules). I haven't played HQ2 long enough yet to have "internalised" the rules and the various paradigms at work, so I don't have a gut feel for comparing different types of keywords and abilities on the fly. I need to understand the rules in order to internalise them - once I've done that, I'm sure it will be a doddle. ;-)
And I think, as I mentioned in my last post, I may now have answered my own question puzzling it out here! :D
Cheers!
Sarah
>
> Hi Sarah,
>
> Everything I've said about bonuses works equally well for penalties. I should have said "specific ability modifiers" (to me the subsection is badly named). In both cases you have to work out which of a set of abilities is least specialised/general and then apply a bonus/penalty to the ones that are more specialised/general.
>
> The advice at the end of the section - "If you can’t make an easy snap judgment, the modifier is 0." - is really important. If you take too long thinking about what deserves a modifier (caveat: In my experience of playing with loads of different people at cons and my regular gaming groups) your game to grinds to a halt. So if you have to spend any time considering the question "which is more specialised/generalised - Healer occupation keyword/harmony rune?" - then the modifier is zero.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ash
>
> --- On Mon, 7/11/11, SARAH <sarah.newton5_at_...> wrote:
>
> > From: SARAH <sarah.newton5_at_...>
> > Subject: [HeroQuest-rules] Re: Gloranthan HQ2 - Broadness of Occupational Keywords
> > To: HeroQuest-rules_at_yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Monday, 7 November, 2011, 12:58
> > Hi Ash,
> >
> > I'm not talking about Specific Ability bonuses - I'm clear
> > on that. I'm talking about Broad Ability *penalties*, which
> > is a different thing entirely.
> >
> > However, I think I'm getting closer to an answer in the
> > rules-as-written. So, if my PC#1 has Air Rune 20, he can use
> > that broad ability to fly, at an ability of 20. However, if
> > PC#2 has the breakout ability Fly +1 and an Air Rune also of
> > 20, PC#2 can fly at 1W, but PC#1 can now only fly at 14,
> > taking the broad ability penalty - that's the niche
> > protection within a party which the HQ2 rules are talking
> > about on p51.
> >
> > So, likewise, even though a "Weaponthane" occupational
> > keyword is "less broad" than a clan keyword, it's still a
> > broad ability. So, if PC#1 has Weaponthane 20, and PC#2 has
> > Clan 20, and they're both trying to work out an outsider's
> > clan or tribal membership from, say, his fighting style,
> > PC#1's Weaponthane would be operating at 20, and PC#2's Clan
> > would be operating at 17 (20 -3). And, if PC#3 happened to
> > have a specific ability like "Identify Fighting Style 20",
> > then PC#3 would be at 20, PC#1 at (say) 17, and PC#2 at 14.
> >
> > An interesting one would be how the Harmony Rune "keyword",
> > Healer Occupational Keyword, and "Heal Hurt" specific
> > ability all interact when trying to heal a Hurt. I guess
> > it's similar to the above, although I'm not sure which I'd
> > judge as less broad, the Harmony Rune or the Healer
> > keyword... :-)
> >
> > I appreciate this is all eyeballed and judged case-by-case,
> > and that there's no codification of these interrelationships
> > - I'm just trying to judge the score at which PCs would use
> > the abilities included in their Occupational Keywords if
> > they don't have them as break-out abilities - and I'm
> > guessing the answer is, they'd use them at full score,
> > unless another PC has a more tightly defined equivalent
> > specific ability which should be niche-protected.
> >
> > Cheers, :-)
> >
> > Sarah
> >
> >
> > --- In HeroQuest-rules_at_yahoogroups.com,
> > Ashley Munday <aescleal_at_> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Sarah,
> > >
> > > The first thing to consider with the whole specific
> > ability bonus thing is the last sentence of the section on
> > specific ability bonuses: "If you can’t make an easy
> > snap judgment, the modifier is 0."
> > >
> > > (Typo's not mine for once, it's in the original text)
> > >
> > > If you have to think for a long time or look at
> > character sheets or your notes just say "sod it" and not
> > apply anything. Don't make the mistake a lot of people do of
> > trying to have a ready cooked taxonomy of which abilities
> > are more specific than others, it all depends on context. So
> > a Lysang might be a better pig farmer than an Antorling but
> > the Antorling makes better cider even though they use the
> > same ability ("member of <clan>") to do it.
> > >
> > > The other thing to do is always name what the
> > resistance is you, as a GM, are rolling against in a
> > contest. So when your characters are trying to climb Kero
> > Fin they're up against the mountain's "effing tall mountain"
> > ability with a target number of whatever resistance you
> > assign. I know the rules talk about "abstract resistances"
> > but there's no such thing. Whoever wrote that didn't follow
> > the first rule of Heroquest ("abilities are anything that
> > can be used to resolve a conflict.") and all abilities have
> > names so you know what they can be used for.
> > >
> > > Personally I usually ignore the whole specific ability
> > bonus thing unless there's something staring me in the face
> > I can't ignore such as two player characters about to have a
> > conflict and one's using something far more specific.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Ash
> > >
> > > --- On Mon, 7/11/11, SARAH <sarah.newton5_at_>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: SARAH <sarah.newton5_at_>
> > > > Subject: Gloranthan HQ2 -
> > Broadness of Occupational Keywords
> > > > To: HeroQuest-rules_at_yahoogroups.com
> > > > Date: Monday, 7 November, 2011, 9:01
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > I've been treating runic affinities in my
> > Gloranthan HQ2
> > > > game as broad abilities, as per the Kingdom of
> > Sartar book;
> > > > so, if they're rolling against a default
> > resistance, they
> > > > take a broad ability penalty. However, I'm a bit
> > unsure
> > > > about how broad *Occupational* keywords are. The
> > Sartar book
> > > > suggests Clan Keywords are "broader" than
> > Occupational ones,
> > > > which is fine: someone using the Weaponthane
> > occupational
> > > > keyword to attack someone using Member of the
> > Hiording Clan
> > > > keyword would get a bonus (+3?).
> > > >
> > > > But how about someone using Weaponthane against a
> > default
> > > > resistance? Would you consider the Weaponthane
> > occupational
> > > > keyword to be a broad ability then, or would you
> > allow a
> > > > character to roll at his full ability? Is an
> > occupational
> > > > keyword still a broad ability, just "less broad"
> > than runes
> > > > and clan keywords?
> > > >
> > > > Cheers!
> > > >
> > > > Sarah
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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