Re: Gloranthan Reality & Hero Wars

From: Roy Wiseman <RoyWiseman_at_...>
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 18:16:59 +0100


Mikko Rintasaari :
> >"A thunderstone will help a devotee
> >of Orlanth to summon a storm".

Philip Hibbs:
> Yes, I think you're probably right, it would. I'd allow this feat to be
> used to augment a storm summoning ritual.

I think Mikko was getting at the fact that this diverts from the RQ3 definition of a Thunderstone. I agree with both points of view though. Hero Wars IS different and the *spirit* of the HW theist magic system is in the improvisational nature of feats. My personal opinion would be to agree more with Mikko in that most of the time, the spirit of Enchant Thunderstone is intended to be essentially what is written up in the RQ3 writeup and in fact, I think that the Hero Wars designers meant it that way (but they didn't SAY it is the point). or did they mean it that way? i'm confused, I wish I knew... Say you play in a Hero Wars campaign with friends and in another town another group are playing etc. Your group, through many months of playing, come to the ad hoc conclusion that the main use of a Thunderstone is mostly associated with the augmention of storm summoning rituals. Another group come to their own ad hoc conclusion that a Thunderstone is special 10 ton tribal plinth that is maintained by the tribal Hedkoranth to augments all Storm Pantheon spells during Storm season. Another group playing decide that the main use of a Thunderstone is similar to the RQ3 writeup. Now say you all move towns and the groups get mixed up and start arguing about meanings "whaddya mean you throw a Thunderstone!? how can you throw a ten ton piece of rock!?" What I'm talking about is guidelines... ie. did *anyone* on the planet have any confusion about what a Shield spell did? we all knew, and anyone RuneQuest player around the planet understood what was meant when it was mentioned. Now take the Hero Wars players: "We had a big bow fight with some Aldryami", and the reply is: "Did you? uh... HOW did you do that exactly?..." Not really the same is it...

Tim Ellis:
> Hmm, I'll grant you that for people for whom English is not there
> first language, there may be a problem, but I don't really see the
> benefit of saying "Armour of Woad. This feat allows you to treat
> your Woad like Armour". It's adding extra words and telling me
> nothing that the feat name didn't already tell me.

Is it???

Bless Woad (part of the River of Cradles description):

   This spell may only be learned by a full Wind Lord. It may only be cast during the High Holy Day of Orlanth upon a properly prepared pot of woad (a blue dye derived from the woad plant), and thus may only be cast once a year.

   The woad must be smeared over the naked body of the user. A casting of the spell enchants enough woad to coat one man.

   For each point of Bless Woad stacked <RQ mechanics bit...>    Each day that the woad is worn it declines in potency by 1 point. If the user ever puts on armour or clothing, the woad immediately loses all its magic power.

   Once a pot of woad is enchanted, additional castings of Bless Woad will not enhance its enchantment. As long as its pot is kept sealed, blessed woad never spoils.

Wow! Depth, beautifully defined cultural detail, inspiring players to treat a gift of a pot of woad from their Wind Lord with awe and as a great blessing from the cult. The RQ mechanics are irrelevant obviously, but you call this "adding extra words and telling you nothing that the feat name didn't already tell me." !!!? well, gee, I guess we'll just have to disagree on that point!

> Neither is there any need for statistics, that I can see, since you
> would be typically using Armour of Woad to augment your defensive
> edge in (before) combat, and there are already rules for that - the
> exact amount it will augment will depend on your skill, and how much
> you are prepared to risk - a starting character, improvising the feat
> from his affinity 17 will have a lot lower effect than devotee hero
> with an affinity of 10w3...

Is this detailed in the rules... nope. "you would typically be using Armour of Woad to augment your defensive edge", you say as if it's obvious, but it is NOT.

"Right, my player is going to smear lines of woad all around the clan grounds to defend against nearby Maran Gor worshippers that are threatening to shake the clan buildings to the ground!"... um... "Right, my player is going to smear his woad on a cheese sandwich. When he eats the cheese sandwich it gives him magical armour abilities until he next goes to the toilet"... er...

You see, to me, both of the above examples are rubbish, as they eliminate the shared understanding of ritual knowledge of Orlanth and Glorantha that we once had. The point is it is not EVER said what "you would typically be using Armour of Woad" for, you and everyone else has to make it up differently. Again, you and I may own all the RQ material ever published but look at it this way: when I was 15 and got into RuneQuest after playing D&D without feeling much involvement, it really was the Cultural DEPTH flowing with the rules that got me. Our group had only the rule book and Cults of Prax for ages, but it was all there and it all made perfect sense and we didn't need anything more to be loving it. Reading Cults of Prax for the first time was - I worry about myself sometimes ;o) - almost a religious experience because of the depth with which rituals and myths and their connections between worshippers and gods were detailed. It was clear and consistent and it flowed well. What was it that hooked you into RQ? If you were 15 would HW hook you the same way? Glorantha is still there and gods and the culture, it's just that nobody has a clear consensus view anymore of how to BE in Glorantha. In the old Glorantha, you may occasionally have seen a group of Trolls and Sartarite warriors on a hillside skirmishing while the air crackled with magic before they engaged hand-to-hand or strange events such as when Biturian Varosh met Rurik with a strange glow in his eyes on a HeroQuest, but now every sunset brings us lunatic Orlanth worshippers leaping about the hills using Sunset Leap like some insane Monty Python scene on pogo-sticks! or what? Is THAT Glorantha? 'Cos I don't recognise that - do you? Maybe it's meant to be, maybe it's not, it's just so hard to know anymore <sob>. Would a 15 year old buying the book have a clue how to intrepret it???

> We need the descriptions! And preferably some
> > rules. It's not as if the rules take much space in Hero Wars format.
> >
> They would take up far to much space if you insisted that every
> single feat had a description and rules, especially when they would
> be largely redundant (in the case of Armour of Woad, Swordhelp,
> Overbear Foe etc etc). - That's not to say that no feats should ever
> have descriptions or rules attached, or that some of the more
> obscurley named ones (cough sunset leap cough) wouldn't benefit from
> a little more information...

To go back to the River of Cradles description of Bless Woad, look at the cultural information lost. Think of how you can use this information in play RQ: "your characters are confronted by a wounded and naked Wind Lord covered in woad with a strange glow in his eyes. He is touching his sword uneasily..." Everyone would instantly understand the significance of the situation and might want to play it carefully. HW: "It is sunset. You see a weird lookin' bloke leaping about the hills. He bounces up to you and you notice a cheese sandwich covered in blue stuff in his hands..." ooooh... exciting... PLEASE let these things come back in Thunder Rebels! It is NOT too late...

Tim Ellis:
> > obscurley named ones (cough sunset leap cough) wouldn't benefit
> > from a little more information...
>

Wulf Corbett:
> First use of Sunset Leap in our game on Saturday... used to leap onto
> a tower roof... AT SUNSET! Whoopee! No worrying about definition
> there...

And that would be fun in this situation I concede. Who wrote that particular feat though I wonder? Are they going, "oops, I really meant that to be a means to access the Hero Plane...", Of course they may also be saying "that's cool that someone is using it this way", but where is the confomity of vision? all gone...

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