> > Considering that most ghosts still have magic, I doubt [integrated
> > spirits are released after death].
>I will state the first sentence of 'Integration of Spirits' HW p. 211
>as a defence, though : 'Some animist traditions recognize that humans
>are incomplete parts of nature, and that parts of people normally exist
>outside of one's body'.
>
>(emphasis on 'body')
I'm aware of this but I'm finding it very hard to think of a culture that thinks that an ancestor is a part of oneself that exists outside the body. An Ancestor is the spirit of your relatives and are normally recognized by you as having independent existence whether alive or dead.
>Combining this statement and my own view with your sensible objection,
>I would tend to conclude that Spirits can either be Integrated into a
>character's Body, or into his Spirit.
Integration into a body would be a tattoo fetish and there's no problem with having an ancestor in a fetish.
> > I would really need a definition of Inclusive or Exclusive traditions
> > before I can comment further.
>Exclusive Traditions would be those that consider the Spirit World to be an
>Alien World, while Inclusive ones are aware of no such boundary between
>themselves and their magic.
>Kolatings : Exclusive Aldryami : Inclusive.
The Kolatings do not consider the Spirit World to be alien and his demense specifically lies there.
> > But if They Are Us, then [Baboons] would view the integration of
> > an ancestor to be the moral equivalent of taking another
> > baboon's life. Which leaves us where we started.
>No it doesn't. Baboons are likely to consider themselves as reincarnations
>of their Ancestors in the first place, and Manifesting (no I-word : bad!)
>their Ancestors within themselves would be more akin to awakening an old
>memory than destroying it.
>Which is in fact why I agreed that your ancestor channeling suggestion was a
>good solution. Unqualified.
I'm not interested in whether Baboons manifest/channel their ancestors, I'm interested in how those cultures (if any) that integrate their ancestors (as defined in the RQ3^H^H^H HW rules) justify their practice.
> > This isn't a blanket "Nobody shall integrate
> > ancestors", but rather "I would like to see a plausible reason
> > for a culture to integrate ancestors".
>Well, fair enough. But I personally don't believe that Integrating
>a Spirit systematically destroys its individuality. YGMV.
But the HW rules on integration do imply this.
> > Ripping integrated spirits from people has been stated as
> > something that only great spirits could do. I don't think
> > it's a common animist technique.
>I'm not sure that this is relevant to Ancestor Worship. You could
>certainly go on an Animist HQ to meet your Ancestor, Drosox : and
>perhaps wager something of yours against his bravery.
But Quest Challenges only occur on the God Plane. Sorcerers or Animists who wish to do so must travel to the God World and face an Alien World modifier. Because of this and also the high amount of minimum APs required, it's far from common.
--Peter Metcalfe
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