Re: Re: followers; integration

From: Julian Lord <julian.lord_at_...>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 13:41:59 +0200


Peter Metcalfe :

> I'm finding it very hard to think of a culture
> that thinks that an ancestor is a part of oneself that exists outside
> the body. An Ancestor is the spirit of your relatives and are normally
> recognized by you as having independent existence whether alive or
> dead.

Ah : then this is what I would disagree with : I believe that a Bloodline in Ancestor Worship is both a part of oneself and a part of each of one's Ancestors and a part of one's Descendants, through which the Ancestor magic courses, and which is a non-independent portion of them all.

> > > I would really need a definition of Inclusive or Exclusive traditions
> > > before I can comment further.
>
> >Exclusive Traditions would be those that consider the Spirit World to be an
> >Alien World, while Inclusive ones are aware of no such boundary between
> >themselves and their magic.
>
> >Kolatings : Exclusive Aldryami : Inclusive.
>
> The Kolatings do not consider the Spirit World to be alien and
> his demense specifically lies there.

HW terminology interfering again ...

They consider the Spirit World to be separate from the Inner World, but the Aldryami have no such concept.

Anyway, I believe to have defined Inclusive and Exclusive traditions ...

> I'm not interested in whether Baboons manifest/channel their
> ancestors, I'm interested in how those cultures (if any) that
> integrate their ancestors (as defined in the RQ3^H^H^H HW rules)
> justify their practice.

See above, & separate post.

> > > This isn't a blanket "Nobody shall integrate
> > > ancestors", but rather "I would like to see a plausible reason
> > > for a culture to integrate ancestors".
>
> >Well, fair enough. But I personally don't believe that Integrating
> >a Spirit systematically destroys its individuality. YGMV.
>
> But the HW rules on integration do imply this.

I disagree.

Hsunchen integrated Spirits in HW p.216 "cannot be removed easily", which to me implies that it's individuality is *not* destroyed.

But I suppose that this is something that would vary from tradition to tradition
...

> > > Ripping integrated spirits from people has been stated as
> > > something that only great spirits could do. I don't think
> > > it's a common animist technique.
>
> >I'm not sure that this is relevant to Ancestor Worship. You could
> >certainly go on an Animist HQ to meet your Ancestor, Drosox : and
> >perhaps wager something of yours against his bravery.
>
> But Quest Challenges only occur on the God Plane.

...'Quest Challenges "normally" only occur on the God Plane' ...

So, exceptionally, they can occur elsewhere ?

Given that I believe that Ancestor Worship is a borderline case, this isn't an objection that worries me ...

cheers,

Julian Lord

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