Re: Re: Integration

From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_...>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 07:38:12 +1200


Wulf Corbett:

Me>> Why do you want to find a back door to integrate ancestors?
>> HW already gives rules for heroforming of ancestors.

>Heroforming does not perform the same function as Integration, unless
>you keep the ancestor around permanently.

So? Why do you want to integrate your ancestors considering that it takes away their individuality permanently and is extremely wasteful?

>And there are RW and
>fantasy literature examples of learning secrets from ancestral
>spirits that don't involve the ancestor hanging around all your life.

There are. But they do not resemble Integration as defined in the HW rules.

>> Considering that there's no subsumation of ancestors (or
>> anything resembling integration as defined in the FAQ) in
>> the writeup of Daka Fal as described in Cults of Prax and
>> River of Cradles, I don't think that Ancestor worshippers
>> in general will integrate their spirits for the same
>> reason that Grazers don't.

>In RQ you learn spells that you may use as often as your available
>POW/Magic Points allow, from then onwards. Whatever the source, that
>sounds like Integration to me, given the difference in game
>mechanics.

The RQ3 method of learning spirit spells could only be performed with special spell spirits, _not_ ancestors or ghosts. So this fails as an example of a precedent for integration of ancestor spirits. There does exist a method for doing so, but that wasn't generally avilable in RQ3 unlike integration in HW.

>and anyway Integrating an ancestor
>into a fetish doesn't sound too polite either!

You are not integrating the ancestor into a fetish. He merely inhabits the fetish, medicine bundle etc until he's needed.

>> >[...] I was simply trying to find a way to allow Integration
>> >of Ancestors, should it seem necessary to have such a mechanism.

>> But in doing so, you are making it acceptable for _every_
>> animist culture to integrate their ancestors.

>Not at all, no more than the Hsunchen make shapechanging acceptable
>for _every_shaman. It's a matter of what abilities are in a specific
>Tradition.

You are redefining the very concept of Integration. As a result, the reasons for most traditions not to integrate their ancestores cease to exist.

>> >So, what would YOU do if a Shaman achieved a Complete Victory when
>> >attempting to bind an Ancestral Spirit (by whatever means, Spirit
>> >Combat or otherwise)?

>> It depends on what my tradition is.

>Exactly. But a Complete Victory WILL happen, regularly, with existing
>Animists, so if you're in a game with an Ancestor Worshipping Shaman
>(as I am), it's a good idea to consider the possibilities beforehand.

Or you could simply consider the consequences of integration. To suggest that a complete victory gives the moral legitimacy to integrate ancestors is like saying that a complete victory in a battle of wills between sorcerers gives one the moral right to devour the other for one spell. Possible? Certainly. Morally correct? I have my doubts.

--Peter Metcalfe

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