Me:
> >I would say that among the Aronious households, he is strong.
> I would doubt this as Aronius has no connection to Irrippi
> Ontor.
He is a Lunar noble cult, a cult for Carmanoi and Hazars. His power rests in part from the use of Imperial influence. His cult and households will have the best contracts, the best homes in Glamour and the easiest links with other Lunar cults. Aronious has his other side on the Moon Herself. Like any Lunar cult he has a connection with IO. Without a decent IO sage in a Carmanois household he would be bereft of experts on Imperial policy and fashion.
>IMO their viziers are sorcerers just like everybody else's (except they go
for >Makaebus etc.) as that is the Carmanian Way.
Well, yes they would have Lunar sorcerers, I agree there, but I can see no reason why they would have no IO priests. IO is accepted by the Magi as a god of the Truth and is therefore fine to worship. In a Lunar Empire, they would be disadvantaged not to, like the old houses.
> The Aronius households (by which I assume you mean Lunarized
> Carmanians) are IMO the type that "ignores the Lunar message
> of oneness, preferring to seek Idovanus through the tried and
> true methods of light and darkness" p121.
I would consider this to be the older houses, as Aronious is a Lunar deity to all intents and purposes. I would agree that the older houses, of more traditional ilk, would ignore the message of Lunar Oneness, and this is precisely why they are disadvantaged in dealing with the Empire at large when compared to their more cosmopolitan and in fashion Aronious rivals.
> In short, they use the surface truths of the Lunar phases to deepen their
> own understanding of the Truth.
Yes, some do, I would agree, but not all. The Carmanians were the last strong bulwark of Lunarism during Sheng, they supported a Mask who returned the Empire to glory, with the aid of Aronious, this indicates to me that there is a strong Lunar influence in parts of Carmania that is not just about surface truths. I think there is a religious division among the castes and this is something we've emphasised in our SGU cult write ups. Like the Empire as a whole, the Carmanians are facing creeping lunarisation that grows stronger each Wane.
> > > I generally see the Irripi Viziers as serving Houses of
> > > Heartlander origin or the office of the Padishah's Eye
> > > and not Carmanian Houses. They still have the rank of
> > > Vizier, but most Carmanians would prefer to have a "proper
> > > vizier" serving their house.
>
> >This to me is a contradiction of the point that priests of gods
> >cannot be Viziers.
> What it actually says is that Priests of the Lesser Gods are
> not Viziers but members of another caste depending on their
> status and sex. If a Hazar becomes a Priest of Humakt, he
> remains a Hazar. The priesthood of the lesser gods have the
> caste of that god's worshippers.
When the Magi, who are an uber caste, over the Viziers, state that a God is of the Truth of Idovanus, they are actively bringing in that God to the fold. The process is one of control. The priests of that cult become Viziers because that is how they are controlled and policed. They have to obey the rules of the Magi, which of course, come straight from Idovanus. If the priests of that cult remained in their old caste, they would _not_ be subject to Vizier law and punitive means, they would have to be tried by their peers, other Hazars. This would render the control of the Magi and their Vizier servants to be less than effective and vulnerable to the Lie.
> I do not think it feasible for Priests of those gods to become Viziers as
that means
> they now have to act like viziers and give up all benefits of their
> old caste (which would be suicide for a priest of Humakt - give
> up his weapons and prance about in a Vizier Costume).
Ah, I think we have a core difference here. I don't see the Viziers as being unable to use their weapons anymore. The concept of the Carmanians creating a caste that cannot pick up a blade seems wrong to me. Nor do I think they would have to wear constume, except on ritual occaisons. So yes, if there were a conclave of Viziers, of if there were a trial of a member of the Vizier caste, then there would prance about in the costume. But mostly not IMO. I look at it like a medieval knight of one of the more frivolous orders - they have ritual costume that is very unwarlike indeed, but in battle, its on with the combat leather and heavy plate.
To me the Viziers are a professional caste with extremely strong religious observances. When you become a Viziers, you become the arm of Idovanus, the enforcers of his word, the hunters of the Lie. Thus on attaining Viziers status you are inducted into their rituals, rites, and most importantly - rules. You are told the secret signs of Ganesetarus and you are taught how to root them out. The reason why some careers are only open to Viziers, is because those are deemed by the Magi to be the most dangerous (open to the power of the Lie) and thus in need of full control.
> Now Magi as members of the Vizier Caste
The Magi are above the Vizier caste, they are something else altogether. P120 Intro to G, "They are not senior Viziers, but a seperate order of wizards, renowned for their magical puissance."
>are not sorcerers but "priests" of Idovanus.
They are mystics, following an transcendent being.
> So the Carmanians admit that viziers need not be sorcerers. This creates
a
> loophole for viziers to worship other gods. There's no point in them
worshipping
> Gods of other castes as they have their own priesthoods.
The reason why I disagree with this view is because a god accepted by the Magi is a god who has had certain practices approved. Those worshippers of the cult who do not follow those strict guidelines are following the Lie. Thus there are Bisos worshippers who are of the Truth and there are evil, deranged scum who follow the Lie by worshipping the cult _without_ sanction from the Viziers. Sanction from the Viziers is being in a ceremony led by a Vizier. How would a sorcerer of whatever order, be able to enter the central rites of a Humakt ritual and then be able to tell whether those rites were following the laws laid down for the correct Truthful worship of Humakt? It wouldn't work. They don't even see the same other side. The couldn't take part in the mysteries of the cult, which is essential for seeing the "truth" of the cult. For a cult to be regulated, the only true way is to make the cult priests into part of a over heirachy that gives them a reason and a vested interest in controlling the ceremonies in the correct fashion, as proscribed by the Magi.
>There's no point in them worshipping scribe deities like Buserian and
> Irrippi Ontor as Carmanian sorcerous training, as all
> Carmanians know, is superior to those of mere gods and is grounded
> in their cultural tradition.
Yes and no. They've had a long time to mutate since their Malkioni days, in a region packed with powerful theistic traditions. They are of mixed blood too, very, very few Carmanians are without Pelandan blood to some degree or another. They have also had a great Empire and have been conquered and integrated by a great Empire. Many refugees settled in their lands fleeing Sheng. Their traditions have had to cope with deities, hence the Vizier caste and the Magi. They cannot sanction the Lie, but they could not keep out the theistic gods, as most of their subjects worshipped them, so they did the next best thing, they integrated and they have built a caste system that _allows_ them to keep integrating yet remain themselves - the dominant culture.
>So Viziers are normally sorcerers.
A big percentage are, but not the majority IMO.
> There are IMO a couple of circumstances in which Viziers might
> be found worshipping gods. One is the worship of cults like
> Atyar, Ikadz or Valind for magical warfare that can't be easily
> duplicated by the sorcerous Viziers.
I would think that their priests would just be Viziers like any other, the same as the accepted cults.
> The second circumstance is what happens if a Heartland family
> (ie Darjiinian, Darsenite, Rinliddi, Dara Happan, Lunar, or
> Sylilan but not Pelandan or Arrolians!) settles in the Western
> Reaches (perhaps after acquiring land there for some reason).
> This would have occurred as long ago as the Blood King's War
> when Lunar Veterans were settled on conquered land and would
> still happen today.
Agreed
> A Heartland family might even be Carmanians
> who went east, went native or lunar and then moved back to
> Carmania.
Yes, also very likely.
> The Heartlanders although not being Carmanians would adopt the
> outward pretences of Carmanian Castes to fit in and to acquire
> legal identity in the Carmanian Courts.
Yes, agreed.
> In this way they can
> step outside their front door without being cut to pieces as a
> servant of the Lie.
Exactly! Yes, they would have to be worshipping recognised Gods. It makes you wonder what the Carmanians think of the rest of the Empire though. It would be tough on them and everyone else if they went outside of Carmania and met those worshipping deities that had no sanctioned Viziers. I think they must have some mechanism for dealing with that.
> Now the prime method for the Carmanians to determine what caste
> a foreigner is through his deity. Worshippers of War Gods are
> Hazars while those of Ruler Gods are Karmanoi.
Mostly I would agree with that, though there would be exceptions to the general rule.
>Now these Heartland Houses would not have the same desire for sorcerous
> Viziers as the Carmanians do.
Yes, though some of them might have Lunar Sorcery cults and so fit in quite well. It would be a huge variable I think.
> So their scribes would worship Buserian or Irrippi Ontor (but perhaps even
the
> Pelandan Logos) and be considered of the Vizier caste.
Yes, agreed. I think our area of difference in in the scale of such worship and the amount of new/old households.
> >The reason why I felt it was better if the Vizier
> >caste included priests is to get around this ambiguity.
> What's so ambiguous about having a priest of Humakt being
> in the Hazar caste?
Because they would not be enacting their rituals according to Vizier law, but accoding to their own, which would not be sanctioned by the Magi. If IO priests are Viziers, why not _any_ priest? It would save the ambiguity if all members of the learned workforce were in the learned caste IMO.
>Caste means a lot more to Carmanians than just a label in their census form.
Oh, I utterly agree. Its a deadly serious business, as its about ones soul and place with Idovanus. Which is another reason why I think that an accepted cult would have to have Viziers as priests and their priests be Viziers, it wouldn't work otherwise.
> > > Why would Carmanoi worship a war god?
> >Because they are a warrior people.
> They are a Malkioni people and Malkion has created a strict
> division between the duties of Lords and Soldiers.
But they _aren't_ really a Malkioni people any more are they? After hundred of years and a stream of Shahs who are theistic in part or whole, and after being conquered by a Theistic Empire, they are not Malkioni. Besides, the Malkioni nobles fight! They are warriors as well as leaders!
> Although even the anally conservative Brithini bend the rules and
> have their Talars fight in battle, I still feel that Malkioni
> cultures with their emphasis of traditions and prior precedents
> would make distinctions between the Lord and the Knight and
> that this would also exist in Carmania.
Clearly there is a distinction between Carmanoi and Hazar, I agree, but to say that the nobility is not able to worship a war god seems to defy their history to me. A baron leads his army to war, the leader of the Queens Regiment from Spol is a good Carmanoi but certainly rides to war, for pleasure! Joranthir himself became Carmanoi after being a successful Hazar. I think many Carmanoi are ex-Hazars who have earned their lands through war and conquest. Those men would not stop worshipping their god of war, simply because they changed caste.
> Now I do not intend for the Karmanoi to be Bishop Odo clones
> and say "I'm not carrying an edged weapon so I'm not breaking
> the prohibition on the shedding of blood".
Okay.
> But I do feel that
> Karmanoi would face certain prohibitions on what they may or
> may not do in battle and worshipping a Hazar God would be beyond
> the pale.
I think we disagree on the concept of the castes and the gods at a fundamental level here. I do not think that the Gods approved by the Magi are caste gods, but simply aspects of the Idovanic Truth. As such those cults where it makes sense should have all of the castes within them. The castes define social and religious responsibility, not the deity you worship, though its undoubtedly true that the castes tend to gravitate to certain deities, there are bound to be exceptions. As there might be a Vizier who lives for war and battle, there might be a Hazar who venerates the Spring Spirit and collects flowers. They are still in their caste, but they are not bound by the type of deity they worship. Yes, the learned Viziers would sneer at their armoured castemate and the other Hazars would laugh at the flower pressing Hazar in their midst, but this happens in the RW too and I like this as a roleplaying source of fun.
> > > If he was any good at war, he would have been raised a Hazar.
> > > Carmanoi are chosen rather than born.
> >And they are chosen to lead. All Carmanians are born Hazars. They
> >are then weeded out into different castes as they grow older and show
> >skills. So a warrior who displays great aptitude for command and
> >diversity of thought would be a choice for Carmanoi.
>
> Their caste is chosen at puberty.
Mostly, yes, but then there are Carmanoi who lose their status and there are Hazars who become Viziers or Carmanoi through learning or exploit, or simple career change.
> If a warrior displays command
> and diversity of thought then he would be made an officer, _not_
> a Karmanoi.
He would be a Carmanoi is her were given land or earned it from one source or another. The moment he is the owner of land, he by definition is a Carmanoi as only they can own land. So when Aronious was granted lands for his work, he became a Carmanoi automatically.
> > > As a priest of a war god, they are Hazars.
> >But the priests of Irripi Ontor are Viziers?
> Yes.
So why not any other cult?
> >Where is the division and on what criteria?
> The division is that _worshippers_ of Irrippi Ontor are Viziers.
> What other caste would they belong to?
But according you the argument you've put forth, would they not be worshippers of a lesser god and thus be Hazars? That being the caste of the ordinary Carmanian?
> >Handling it yes, but most economic activty would be trade in kind. I
> >think there would have to be a steward function and this could not be
> >performed by Pelandans, as it would be a position of power and trust.
> I think they would use their adherence to the truth to find out
> whether a Pelandan (as a forced servant of the lie) has been
> fiddling the books. Saves the hassle of learning about filthy
> lucre.
Weeelll, much as I like the concept of the nobility being adverse to money in all respects, there would be no practical way they could avoid it. I think there would be many who would be inept or do their best to do so, but as in the RW, there would be nobles who had a profound grasp of the economy, and those that don't. Again, I'm arguing for diversity. I think some nobles would have their Viziers do it, others would have Pelandans, some might hire foreign Buseri accountant Axe Men, others might do it themselves and others might let their wives take up the taskl.
Maritn Laurie
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